Challenger crash at KASE
As a 135 Lear pilot said to me, at RIFLE having breakfast after we diverted the night before, "my chief pilot told me, 'if I hear you circled to 33, you are fired'".
GF
GF
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I conducted some Lear type checks with a Fed in that seat. We took off with V1 failures so that was an approved seat for takeoff. A toilet would never be put in front of the cabin exposed.
Just to be clear about it, I didn't say the left downwind to 33 at ASE couldn't be done, I said I wouldn't want to be seen doing it in a bizjet! (subtlety alert!) Obvious reasons. Right traffic to 33 is another matter. I've only done that a couple of times and only in clear weather. Yeah, you gotta do a little of that pilot stuff, but it's not as if you need the stick & rudder skills of the uber talented Bob Hoover to make it work!
We let the FAA inspectors ride on the divan in our Lears and Westwinds for check rides. It's near the front so they can kinda see. They would strap into their seats for takeoff and landing and kneel behind the center console for airborne work. The Hawker I flew for awhile had a jump seat, but the inspectors didn't like to sit in it for takeoff and landing since it would be difficult to egress in a hurry. When I was a check airman, our POI had to observe every tenth checkride I gave. Poor guy. They don't really want to go unless they actually have to! I usually gave combined .293/.297/.299 rides so following the oral exam, we'd be gone at least a couple of hours. We'd order them a crew meal and set out a well stocked snack basket just to make them feel a little better about having to ride along...
Anyway, as far as this Challenger deal goes, I can almost imagine what it was like. With the FDR traces, the visualization will seem all too real. I still remember how sick I felt while I was sitting with our chief pilot listening to the raw unedited CVR playback from N303GA almost 13 years ago. I hope all pilots reading that report and the final report on this crash can picture themselves in the same situation and learn from it rather than repeating it for real. In the end though, the temptation to push on will always be there.
westhawk
We let the FAA inspectors ride on the divan in our Lears and Westwinds for check rides. It's near the front so they can kinda see. They would strap into their seats for takeoff and landing and kneel behind the center console for airborne work. The Hawker I flew for awhile had a jump seat, but the inspectors didn't like to sit in it for takeoff and landing since it would be difficult to egress in a hurry. When I was a check airman, our POI had to observe every tenth checkride I gave. Poor guy. They don't really want to go unless they actually have to! I usually gave combined .293/.297/.299 rides so following the oral exam, we'd be gone at least a couple of hours. We'd order them a crew meal and set out a well stocked snack basket just to make them feel a little better about having to ride along...
Anyway, as far as this Challenger deal goes, I can almost imagine what it was like. With the FDR traces, the visualization will seem all too real. I still remember how sick I felt while I was sitting with our chief pilot listening to the raw unedited CVR playback from N303GA almost 13 years ago. I hope all pilots reading that report and the final report on this crash can picture themselves in the same situation and learn from it rather than repeating it for real. In the end though, the temptation to push on will always be there.
westhawk
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A toilet would never be put in front of the cabin exposed.
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boys
lets not argue.
maybe bubbers didn't fly so many learjets, but he probably has a type and moved on to the airlines.
life, you seem to be picking fights.
There are lots of ways to fly. Let's all learn from each other.
The only people recently that I question about flying ability seem not to be on this forum.
lets not argue.
maybe bubbers didn't fly so many learjets, but he probably has a type and moved on to the airlines.
life, you seem to be picking fights.
There are lots of ways to fly. Let's all learn from each other.
The only people recently that I question about flying ability seem not to be on this forum.
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Not sure this is relevant but I remember a LR 35 crash at ASE many years ago. Stalled during a right traffic circling maneuver to Rwy 15.
DEN91FA043
DEN91FA043
Given the way the valley opens up towards the North, comparing a right downwind to 15 and a left downwind to 33 isn't the apples to apples comparison you're trying to make it out to be.
But, either one, being on the west side of the airport are, by today's standards dubious to insane, ideas. For jets, straight-in 15 landings, weather and winds permitting. Turboprops and pistons, the circuit in the valley to 33 is probably fine.
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GF
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I have to admit that I have never been to aspen. So I did some research including looking at googlemaps satellite view.
while I would call it a modified right downwind to be sure, it really doesn't seem that bad. There is a road to follow towards the southeast over a flat area and then another road to follow back angling in towards the airport's runway 33.
googlemap allows for zooming up so close as to see everything you might want to see.
it would have to be done in VMC but some preplanning and practice might work out ok.
while I would call it a modified right downwind to be sure, it really doesn't seem that bad. There is a road to follow towards the southeast over a flat area and then another road to follow back angling in towards the airport's runway 33.
googlemap allows for zooming up so close as to see everything you might want to see.
it would have to be done in VMC but some preplanning and practice might work out ok.
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belong to Banks or Operators are dependant of Leasing . Is it a statistic factor of danger?
I do know operations with leased airplanes and I sometimes freelance on airplanes that are leased.
Its a sign of creative accounting and limiting liability and maybe sometimes a sign of corporations and individuals owning airplanes they might not be able to afford them if theyīd have to pay for it in one chunk.
A sign of our times.
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Bank, Leasing, Insurer, Owner, Operator, and Air safety
True... or half-true : The first advantage for operators to use leased aircrafts is to share in two different companies the benefits for the owner and the losses for the operators !
Sometimes the fisc does not accept to consider they are independant : exemple Euralair and Avialair and it may lead to a Criminal Court
Air Safety Regulations have been writen in the idea that responsability concerns the company who makes money : in the former time it was the operator, today it is the owner in the leasing system. Insurers make money too.
Regulations must be adapted to protect Air Safety and say that these who get money have responsibility. Immatriculations too often are lying. So inquiries are modified in case of crash.
When the owner is a Bank it is still worse, because a Bank does not know how to do an aircraft safe, their profession is to take a percent on every penny, cent passing in their hands. They have no technical skills.
It seems the question may be put on the table of discussion now and fora.
roulishollandais
Sometimes the fisc does not accept to consider they are independant : exemple Euralair and Avialair and it may lead to a Criminal Court
Air Safety Regulations have been writen in the idea that responsability concerns the company who makes money : in the former time it was the operator, today it is the owner in the leasing system. Insurers make money too.
Regulations must be adapted to protect Air Safety and say that these who get money have responsibility. Immatriculations too often are lying. So inquiries are modified in case of crash.
When the owner is a Bank it is still worse, because a Bank does not know how to do an aircraft safe, their profession is to take a percent on every penny, cent passing in their hands. They have no technical skills.
It seems the question may be put on the table of discussion now and fora.
roulishollandais
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Air Safety Regulations have been writen in the idea that responsability concerns the company who makes money : in the former time it was the operator, today it is the owner in the leasing system. Insurers make money too.
Regulations must be adapted to protect Air Safety and say that these who get money have responsibility. Immatriculations too often are lying. So inquiries are modified in case of crash.
Regulations must be adapted to protect Air Safety and say that these who get money have responsibility. Immatriculations too often are lying. So inquiries are modified in case of crash.
Sometimes I find it easier to just accept that some pilots do stupid things then to try and find someone else to blame....and btw....I can't stand the bloody "we need more regulation" thing... to bust limitations is already illegal, making it more illegal than illegal just wonīt work.....
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to bust limitations is already illegal, making it more illegal than illegal just wonīt work.....
This is another accident that should never have happened, and it's not too dissimilar to the one that happened in Ireland recently following three attempts at landing in actual wx that was below minimums.
Regulations to prohibit the busting of existing regulations........yeah, let's have some of those. Makes perfect sense, and likely to appeal to the mind numbingly stupid EASA regulators.