Challenger crash at KASE
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@westhawk ...yes....nice post.
It makes me wonder when someone comes here and brags about some crazy flying he may have done years ago when there are less experienced pilots around who may be impressionable and think doing a left downwind to 33 at KASE is ok if you've got the skill.
I've done plenty of crazy skillful flying in the past and mostly I won't talk about it because looking back I realize it wasn't the best judgement but times have changed a lot and these days I think pilots should have a more careful attitude. That may be why overall safety records improve over time, because we learn not necessarily how to be more skilled but how to be less stupid.
I'd like to think a guy who claims to have tens of thousands of hours as a professional pilot would know better than to say that flying a 757 into KASE circling to 33 would be a "cakewalk." Really? I'm not saying it's not possible for a skilled pilot but ....really? Would you also do that with a report of severe turbulence "localized" near your missed approach path?
It makes me wonder when someone comes here and brags about some crazy flying he may have done years ago when there are less experienced pilots around who may be impressionable and think doing a left downwind to 33 at KASE is ok if you've got the skill.
I've done plenty of crazy skillful flying in the past and mostly I won't talk about it because looking back I realize it wasn't the best judgement but times have changed a lot and these days I think pilots should have a more careful attitude. That may be why overall safety records improve over time, because we learn not necessarily how to be more skilled but how to be less stupid.
I'd like to think a guy who claims to have tens of thousands of hours as a professional pilot would know better than to say that flying a 757 into KASE circling to 33 would be a "cakewalk." Really? I'm not saying it's not possible for a skilled pilot but ....really? Would you also do that with a report of severe turbulence "localized" near your missed approach path?
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lifeafteraviation
maybe I missed something but the person you are writing about didn't say he took a 757 into aspen, he was talking about an early lear jet. He said it was in the early 70's and the 757 wasn't out by then.
On these forums I take people at their word. After all the accusers may not be telling the truth either and you really don't know.
We could ask questions like: what is the dead dog switch?
or
We could ask questions like: how many holes are in the speaker grill over the captain's head on a 737?
Would that prove anything?
And if one person says something and another disagrees, it may just be the differences in ways of doing things in one airline's ops manual over another.
maybe I missed something but the person you are writing about didn't say he took a 757 into aspen, he was talking about an early lear jet. He said it was in the early 70's and the 757 wasn't out by then.
On these forums I take people at their word. After all the accusers may not be telling the truth either and you really don't know.
We could ask questions like: what is the dead dog switch?
or
We could ask questions like: how many holes are in the speaker grill over the captain's head on a 737?
Would that prove anything?
And if one person says something and another disagrees, it may just be the differences in ways of doing things in one airline's ops manual over another.
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maybe I missed something but the person you are writing about didn't say he took a 757 into aspen
...he was talking about an early lear jet. He said it was in the early 70's and the 757 wasn't out by then.
what is the dead dog switch?
And if one person says something and another disagrees, it may just be the differences in ways of doing things in one airline's ops manual over another.
@bubbers ...what would you want to change my mind about? I was lecturing you, not arguing with you.
Last edited by lifeafteraviation; 29th Jan 2014 at 15:54.
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life
most every transport jet has some sort of a jump seat, or somewhere for an FAA examiner to observe. I never flew the lear, I don't think I could fit in it. But someone told me there is a small sort of bench thing you can put in. Do correct me if I am wrong.
and in some ways I do think it would be easier to get a 757 into aspen (I'd like to think a guy who claims to have tens of thousands of hours as a professional pilot would know better than to say that flying a 757 into KASE circling to 33 would be a "cakewalk." Really? I'm not saying it's not possible for a skilled pilot but ....really? Would you also do that with a report of severe turbulence "localized" near your missed approach path?)
It has leading edge devices, alot of umph and most likely a very well trained crew.
I like calling the dead dog switch the pup cicle (as in popcicle) switch.
Bubbers has written enough for me to be pretty darn sure he is who he says he is.
Getting in and out of a mountain airport can be a challenge and some are up to it more than others. Using spirals, course reversals of many kinds and being with it.
most every transport jet has some sort of a jump seat, or somewhere for an FAA examiner to observe. I never flew the lear, I don't think I could fit in it. But someone told me there is a small sort of bench thing you can put in. Do correct me if I am wrong.
and in some ways I do think it would be easier to get a 757 into aspen (I'd like to think a guy who claims to have tens of thousands of hours as a professional pilot would know better than to say that flying a 757 into KASE circling to 33 would be a "cakewalk." Really? I'm not saying it's not possible for a skilled pilot but ....really? Would you also do that with a report of severe turbulence "localized" near your missed approach path?)
It has leading edge devices, alot of umph and most likely a very well trained crew.
I like calling the dead dog switch the pup cicle (as in popcicle) switch.
Bubbers has written enough for me to be pretty darn sure he is who he says he is.
Getting in and out of a mountain airport can be a challenge and some are up to it more than others. Using spirals, course reversals of many kinds and being with it.
757 vs lrjet and some of the other things blubbers claims, I'll leave to others. Circing west (left traffic ) to 33 is something however that stretches his credibility past the breaking point. I say this as someone who flies into ASE weekly. Other posters who are familar with the airport agree.
He claims they turned a two mile left base to a runway that sits just below 8000 ft MSL. The mountains that sit on a two mile left base are about 14,000 ft. I've seen some crazy stuff from some of the operators in there, but none so blatantly stupid as to even try that. I'm sure there have been those who turned a two base leg at 6000 ft AGL to a then short runway, I can't imagine any of them described it as a normal landing as blubbers has.
Either you question the veracity of his story or you question his judgement if this was even tried. This isn't someone who should be held up as an example of old school airmenship. The valley in ASE contains plenty of examples of the foolhardy venturing where they shouldn't.
He claims they turned a two mile left base to a runway that sits just below 8000 ft MSL. The mountains that sit on a two mile left base are about 14,000 ft. I've seen some crazy stuff from some of the operators in there, but none so blatantly stupid as to even try that. I'm sure there have been those who turned a two base leg at 6000 ft AGL to a then short runway, I can't imagine any of them described it as a normal landing as blubbers has.
Either you question the veracity of his story or you question his judgement if this was even tried. This isn't someone who should be held up as an example of old school airmenship. The valley in ASE contains plenty of examples of the foolhardy venturing where they shouldn't.
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Westcoast - I've never been to Aspen. I take some of blubbers' stories with a huge grain of salt. But you're big on credibility so how can you say the mountains are 14,000 when the topo map shows the distance on a 2 mile left base to be closer to 8800' (+/-)?
Mayflower Mine, CO - N39.19974° W106.87182°
So it's not a 6000' AGL base turn like you're alleging. It could be as low as 800' (+/-). Suddenly it's not the impossible event you're trying to make it out to be.
Would I recommend a left base? Absolutely not from looking at the pictures, charts, and topo charts. Why would someone fly that? IDK. But here's the flipside - does it look impossible? No, it looks possible. Dumb maybe but maybe not impossible.
Mayflower Mine, CO - N39.19974° W106.87182°
So it's not a 6000' AGL base turn like you're alleging. It could be as low as 800' (+/-). Suddenly it's not the impossible event you're trying to make it out to be.
Would I recommend a left base? Absolutely not from looking at the pictures, charts, and topo charts. Why would someone fly that? IDK. But here's the flipside - does it look impossible? No, it looks possible. Dumb maybe but maybe not impossible.
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Originally Posted by Glendalegoon
most every transport jet has some sort of a jump seat, or somewhere for an FAA examiner to observe. I never flew the lear, I don't think I could fit in it...
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according to this, lear is transport
hi flyboyike
http://d16bsf97ryvc45.cloudfront.net...earjet_24f.pdf
says the lear 24 is a transport cat.
now I'm not going to argue the point. but there it is.
if there are any learjet guys out there, maybe they can settle it. I do agree that the very first lear 23 was not a transport cat.
http://d16bsf97ryvc45.cloudfront.net...earjet_24f.pdf
says the lear 24 is a transport cat.
now I'm not going to argue the point. but there it is.
if there are any learjet guys out there, maybe they can settle it. I do agree that the very first lear 23 was not a transport cat.
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thanks mongo
often times pilots say jumpseat, when perhaps they just mean any available seat in back. some faa guy told me that in a beech 1900 they had to take the first seat in the cabin to give check rides. so I really don't know.
often times pilots say jumpseat, when perhaps they just mean any available seat in back. some faa guy told me that in a beech 1900 they had to take the first seat in the cabin to give check rides. so I really don't know.
Nineteen seats/6,000 pounds is, I think, where a 135 operation becomes a 121 operation or when private operations become a 125 operation.
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It's where a part 91 operation becomes a part 125 operation, but we digress.
Background
Part 125 was issued to establish a uniform set of certification and operational rules for large airplanes having a seating capacity of 20 or more passengers or a maximum payload capacity of 6,000 pounds or more, when common carriage is not involved. These rules substantially upgrade the level of safety applicable to large airplanes formerly operated under Part 91.
Part 125 was issued to establish a uniform set of certification and operational rules for large airplanes having a seating capacity of 20 or more passengers or a maximum payload capacity of 6,000 pounds or more, when common carriage is not involved. These rules substantially upgrade the level of safety applicable to large airplanes formerly operated under Part 91.
BTW, the Lear 24 was the first ever Bizjet certified under FAR25.
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You said I turned a two mile left base, I didn't. I said the chart I posted showed high terrain over 2 miles west. Being so long ago have no memory of when we made our left turn. It could have been by Aspen somewhere following the road in. The severe turbulence on final to 15 stuck in my mind. You don't hear that much in a career.
Actually the owner of our charter company was flying that day and asked me what to do. He wasn't the ace of the base and did fine. We cancelled IFR about 30 miles NW so we could turn anyway we wanted on a go around.
I remember the Aspen trees west of the airport and they seemed less than a mile away.
Actually the owner of our charter company was flying that day and asked me what to do. He wasn't the ace of the base and did fine. We cancelled IFR about 30 miles NW so we could turn anyway we wanted on a go around.
I remember the Aspen trees west of the airport and they seemed less than a mile away.
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The old Learjets typically had a toilet right behind the copilot seat which was used as a makeshift jumpseat but most Feds would sit in the back for take off and landing and then move up to the toilet seat after wheels up to observe the checkride. Most of the time the toilet wasn't set up as a legal passenger seat or jumpseat. In the very old days before simulators check airmen would sit right seat and conduct a full FAR.293b or 297 from the right seat. Simulator time in the Lear 20-30 series was relatively cheap after a while and it made no sense not to use them. Still, some operators continued old school.
I used to conduct such full checkrides in airplanes as a check airman but since I was on the company certificate I would always do it from the right or left seat. Looking back I think it was crazy and stupid not to use simulators but I did my job. A few accidents occurred during this type of aircraft training and checking. When I started flying larger jets I would often conduct line checks from the actual jumpseat, all other checks were done in the sim.
I can't even recall the certification stuff but what was said by glendalegoon and GF sounds about right.
Ten years of flying business jets in and out of KASE I never once considered landing in the opposite direction but I always felt I should set an example of conservative safety, not show off so I can brag about my skills. The runway was shorter back then but the mountains were just as high...I've hiked up them so I know.
Getting back on topic...considering the obvious intense pressure these Mexican pilots faced to land in Aspen that fateful day despite conditions, they probably would have been better off circling to 33. Even though it would have been dangerous and poor judgement, they probably would have had a better chance at surviving. Even if they had crashed, they wouldn't have been going so fast. Of course the correct decision was to divert.
Never place yourself in a situation you can't get out of if things don't work out.
I used to conduct such full checkrides in airplanes as a check airman but since I was on the company certificate I would always do it from the right or left seat. Looking back I think it was crazy and stupid not to use simulators but I did my job. A few accidents occurred during this type of aircraft training and checking. When I started flying larger jets I would often conduct line checks from the actual jumpseat, all other checks were done in the sim.
I can't even recall the certification stuff but what was said by glendalegoon and GF sounds about right.
Ten years of flying business jets in and out of KASE I never once considered landing in the opposite direction but I always felt I should set an example of conservative safety, not show off so I can brag about my skills. The runway was shorter back then but the mountains were just as high...I've hiked up them so I know.
Getting back on topic...considering the obvious intense pressure these Mexican pilots faced to land in Aspen that fateful day despite conditions, they probably would have been better off circling to 33. Even though it would have been dangerous and poor judgement, they probably would have had a better chance at surviving. Even if they had crashed, they wouldn't have been going so fast. Of course the correct decision was to divert.
Never place yourself in a situation you can't get out of if things don't work out.