Challenger crash at KASE
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Yeah to all that....but I think it's just academic.
There is what you can do and what you should do....which is what I was getting into earlier.
Remember (earlier in thread) in KASE these IFR approaches don't permit circling with category D anyway so it's not technically a circling procedure, it's just a visual approach which is legal and permitted but widely advised against.
And I don't agree that there may be cases where circling fully configured would make sense unless you have a special authorized procedure (which is likely for AA but I am still skeptical of anything that guy says). Absent a special procedure which is authorized and described in the company's Ops Specs and the pilots are trained to perform it at the specific airport, one should only follow the manufacturers guidance and procedures described in the relevant manual and I don't know of any jets that have procedures in place for circling while fully configured. Partial configured yes...maybe even land like that but only if there's numbers for it.
I don't think there's anything wrong with hypothetical discussions but just so state so people don't get bent out of shape when talking about doing something potentially dangerous and possibly illegal.
It was previously discussed by those who know this particular jet well that it shouldn't land in less than full configuration and that it uses category D minimums for circling.
I stated that since these guys were already hell bent on landing there and aircraft limitations be damned...they may as well have circled to 33 and stood a better chance at survival.
There is what you can do and what you should do....which is what I was getting into earlier.
Remember (earlier in thread) in KASE these IFR approaches don't permit circling with category D anyway so it's not technically a circling procedure, it's just a visual approach which is legal and permitted but widely advised against.
And I don't agree that there may be cases where circling fully configured would make sense unless you have a special authorized procedure (which is likely for AA but I am still skeptical of anything that guy says). Absent a special procedure which is authorized and described in the company's Ops Specs and the pilots are trained to perform it at the specific airport, one should only follow the manufacturers guidance and procedures described in the relevant manual and I don't know of any jets that have procedures in place for circling while fully configured. Partial configured yes...maybe even land like that but only if there's numbers for it.
I don't think there's anything wrong with hypothetical discussions but just so state so people don't get bent out of shape when talking about doing something potentially dangerous and possibly illegal.
It was previously discussed by those who know this particular jet well that it shouldn't land in less than full configuration and that it uses category D minimums for circling.
I stated that since these guys were already hell bent on landing there and aircraft limitations be damned...they may as well have circled to 33 and stood a better chance at survival.
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can do and should do:
should: don't crash.
can: think!
theoretical? LAA, just for the record, when I say: circling, in some cases I've made it clear that it is maneuvering to land in VMC conditions. NOT off an instrument approach.
There are people who would declare the river visual approach to KDCA an unstable approach according to FAA statements . But jets do it all the time (even on one occasion a United DC10 running low on gas) And I'll bet he was fully configured way before 1000'
should: don't crash.
can: think!
theoretical? LAA, just for the record, when I say: circling, in some cases I've made it clear that it is maneuvering to land in VMC conditions. NOT off an instrument approach.
There are people who would declare the river visual approach to KDCA an unstable approach according to FAA statements . But jets do it all the time (even on one occasion a United DC10 running low on gas) And I'll bet he was fully configured way before 1000'
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Look, I just disagree with you.
You can and should think....you can think your way around the manufacturers approved or recommended procedures and rationalize as much as you can get away with it but if you screw up and bend something the lawyers will have a field day on your azz. If you kill someone after busting limitations you better not talk to anyone without a lawyer of your own!
DC is an approved procedure and although I haven't done it in a while I believe it's a visual procedure. Like LGA too. You should be stabilized by 500' or go around...so I would expect fully configured earlier...pretty straightforward. You may be turning but it's not classified as a circling approach.....maybe I'm wrong....I'm just going on memory....I'll look it up later because I'm curious now.
A lot of airlines simply don't do any circling....that's why so many pilots have this limitation on their ATP.
You can and should think....you can think your way around the manufacturers approved or recommended procedures and rationalize as much as you can get away with it but if you screw up and bend something the lawyers will have a field day on your azz. If you kill someone after busting limitations you better not talk to anyone without a lawyer of your own!
DC is an approved procedure and although I haven't done it in a while I believe it's a visual procedure. Like LGA too. You should be stabilized by 500' or go around...so I would expect fully configured earlier...pretty straightforward. You may be turning but it's not classified as a circling approach.....maybe I'm wrong....I'm just going on memory....I'll look it up later because I'm curious now.
A lot of airlines simply don't do any circling....that's why so many pilots have this limitation on their ATP.
@ lifeafteraviation...
"Remember (earlier in thread) in KASE these IFR approaches don't permit circling with category D anyway so it's not technically a circling procedure, it's just a visual approach which is legal and permitted but widely advised against."
What? I'm not sure what you're getting at here.
The approach is a Category D so as far as I'm concerned in a Challenger aircraft you are not allowed to even start the procedure.
Assuming you get down to the MDA and you are configured for the Challenger gear down, flaps 30 with a minimum of 150kts IAS and you have ground contact, what do you do?
You cannot land straight in you will be too high so manoeuvering will be required and in the Challenger this means staying in your "circling configuration" (as stated above). You could only go flaps 45 and Vref plus corrections once established on the final approach course for the landing.
"And I don't agree that there may be cases where circling fully configured would make sense unless you have a special authorized procedure (which is likely for AA but I am still skeptical of anything that guy says). Absent a special procedure which is authorized and described in the company's Ops Specs and the pilots are trained to perform it at the specific airport, one should only follow the manufacturers guidance and procedures described in the relevant manual and I don't know of any jets that have procedures in place for circling while fully configured. Partial configured yes...maybe even land like that but only if there's numbers for it."
First, get off Bubbers44 case! A senior captain at AA who was trained to go into that particular airport with AA special ops would not go against the company's procedure all these years and get away with it. If he says they had to be fully configured in the downwind leg, I believe him.
Second, your statement about not knowing of any jets that circle fully configured is one of ignorance. How could you know what configuration for circling is required for all aircrafts? Have you flown every type of aircraft in the world? Are you qualified on all types of aircrafts? I'm sure you are not.
Well I can tell you for sure that on the Global Express we do circle and manoeuvre in a "FULLY CONFIGURED" way and that means gear down and flaps set at 30 degrees (full flaps on the GEX) and at only Vref +10 kts. Once on final we bring it back to Vref + corrections if required. Like I said in another post it is very possible to circle this aircraft in the very low 120s. BTW, even when on a single engine approach with the Global, flaps 30 or full flaps is used while on the Challenger it is flaps 20 only.
IIRC the Challenger 300/350, née the "Continental" (just shares the name and nothing in common with a 600/601/604 or 605 Challenger) also circle with their full flap setting.
What? I'm not sure what you're getting at here.
The approach is a Category D so as far as I'm concerned in a Challenger aircraft you are not allowed to even start the procedure.
Assuming you get down to the MDA and you are configured for the Challenger gear down, flaps 30 with a minimum of 150kts IAS and you have ground contact, what do you do?
You cannot land straight in you will be too high so manoeuvering will be required and in the Challenger this means staying in your "circling configuration" (as stated above). You could only go flaps 45 and Vref plus corrections once established on the final approach course for the landing.
"And I don't agree that there may be cases where circling fully configured would make sense unless you have a special authorized procedure (which is likely for AA but I am still skeptical of anything that guy says). Absent a special procedure which is authorized and described in the company's Ops Specs and the pilots are trained to perform it at the specific airport, one should only follow the manufacturers guidance and procedures described in the relevant manual and I don't know of any jets that have procedures in place for circling while fully configured. Partial configured yes...maybe even land like that but only if there's numbers for it."
First, get off Bubbers44 case! A senior captain at AA who was trained to go into that particular airport with AA special ops would not go against the company's procedure all these years and get away with it. If he says they had to be fully configured in the downwind leg, I believe him.
Second, your statement about not knowing of any jets that circle fully configured is one of ignorance. How could you know what configuration for circling is required for all aircrafts? Have you flown every type of aircraft in the world? Are you qualified on all types of aircrafts? I'm sure you are not.
Well I can tell you for sure that on the Global Express we do circle and manoeuvre in a "FULLY CONFIGURED" way and that means gear down and flaps set at 30 degrees (full flaps on the GEX) and at only Vref +10 kts. Once on final we bring it back to Vref + corrections if required. Like I said in another post it is very possible to circle this aircraft in the very low 120s. BTW, even when on a single engine approach with the Global, flaps 30 or full flaps is used while on the Challenger it is flaps 20 only.
IIRC the Challenger 300/350, née the "Continental" (just shares the name and nothing in common with a 600/601/604 or 605 Challenger) also circle with their full flap setting.
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Lifeafteraviation
I don't know of any jets that have procedures in place for circling while fully configured
The Global Express does. Full landing configuration prior to circling maneuvers...2 engines or 1.
The Global Express does. Full landing configuration prior to circling maneuvers...2 engines or 1.
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jet jockey a4
mutt
ksjc
thanks. its time to speak up! and I really agree with jet jockey a 4. an airline like american (all airlines have faults) couldn't allow a non standard procedure to go on for years. some copilot or other person would speak up and investigate.
I wonder why Bubbers was banned. Really. If anyone should be banned maybe its lifeafteraviation.
there are those who would circle fully configured
we are talking, we are looking at a difficult and confined airport.
even a private pilot knows the slower you go (with safe margins above stall) the tighter or smaller your radius of turn is.
mutt
ksjc
thanks. its time to speak up! and I really agree with jet jockey a 4. an airline like american (all airlines have faults) couldn't allow a non standard procedure to go on for years. some copilot or other person would speak up and investigate.
I wonder why Bubbers was banned. Really. If anyone should be banned maybe its lifeafteraviation.
there are those who would circle fully configured
we are talking, we are looking at a difficult and confined airport.
even a private pilot knows the slower you go (with safe margins above stall) the tighter or smaller your radius of turn is.
WOW just WOW!
I just saw that and I'm confused as to why. Maybe I missed something in one of his post but I don't recall anything in Bubbers44 posts that were offensive to anyone.
I just saw that and I'm confused as to why. Maybe I missed something in one of his post but I don't recall anything in Bubbers44 posts that were offensive to anyone.
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Thanks for the info about the GIV and Global. I didn't know about those airplanes...thus the disclaimer in my statement "I don't know of any..." I'm sure there are plenty of other aircraft with enough thrust.
My point being as long as it's an approved procedure...if it's not...don't do it. AA has many special procedures at many airports. Such special procedures are of course authorized in the relevant operations specifications and the pilots trained to do them. I've never claimed to know them or deny them...I was just skeptical of the tall stories told by one poster.
That's exactly what I was saying....If you are circling to land on 33 or even landing at all in KASE it's a visual approach....not a circling procedure. But all this has been talked about over and over in this thread.
Some of you guys get really heated up over basic technical discussions....I don't know why. I have nothing to do with anyone getting banned. I'm guessing it may have been from another thread because I haven't seen anything too extreme said in here.
My point being as long as it's an approved procedure...if it's not...don't do it. AA has many special procedures at many airports. Such special procedures are of course authorized in the relevant operations specifications and the pilots trained to do them. I've never claimed to know them or deny them...I was just skeptical of the tall stories told by one poster.
Jet Jockey A4:
What? I'm not sure what you're getting at here.
The approach is a Category D so as far as I'm concerned in a Challenger aircraft you are not allowed to even start the procedure.
Assuming you get down to the MDA and you are configured for the Challenger gear down, flaps 30 with a minimum of 150kts IAS and you have ground contact, what do you do?
You cannot land straight in you will be too high so manoeuvering will be required and in the Challenger this means staying in your "circling configuration" (as stated above). You could only go flaps 45 and Vref plus corrections once established on the final approach course for the landing.
What? I'm not sure what you're getting at here.
The approach is a Category D so as far as I'm concerned in a Challenger aircraft you are not allowed to even start the procedure.
Assuming you get down to the MDA and you are configured for the Challenger gear down, flaps 30 with a minimum of 150kts IAS and you have ground contact, what do you do?
You cannot land straight in you will be too high so manoeuvering will be required and in the Challenger this means staying in your "circling configuration" (as stated above). You could only go flaps 45 and Vref plus corrections once established on the final approach course for the landing.
Some of you guys get really heated up over basic technical discussions....I don't know why. I have nothing to do with anyone getting banned. I'm guessing it may have been from another thread because I haven't seen anything too extreme said in here.
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even a private pilot knows...
If you are circling to land on 33 or even landing at all in KASE it's a visual approach....not a circling procedure
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I probably shouldn't bite because the tone of the post makes me suspect trolling but I'll give the benefit of the doubt here....
Conducted visually yes, but you still flew a procedure to get there....it's not the same thing as being cleared for a "visual approach" which, while also an instrument procedure, doesn't necessarily depend on a published procedure to initiate or complete. Thus the restriction for category D circling would not apply to a visual approach.
All circling approaches out of MDA are visual.
You are visual but you had to get there via an instrument approach. The circling area is established by approach category which is related to IAS during the maneuver at the circling airspeed. A CL-600 series business jet circles at flaps 30, KIAS is about 150, placing it in Cat D. KASE'S approaches are NA for Cat D. What are we missing?
GF
GF
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I apologize if I confused you with the quoted material...I should have quoted someone else earlier in the thread. What I was simply reiterating was that regardless of which runway you are landing on, once vacating MDA you are visual (to which I mean NOTHING about the Challenger.)
If you're on the visual segment of IAP, you're still operating under IFR and must respect any limitations connected with the IAP. Being cleared for the visual removes any limitations imposed by the IAP. Cancelling IFR has the same effect with respect to the rules.
The reason for the limitations on approach speed category has to do with circling radius and terrain clearance. If you accept a visual approach or proceed under VFR, you are no longer obligated to respect the speed category limitations or comply with any charted MDA. It's all on you to maintain visual terrain clearance, so good planning and judgment is required. On an IAP, you must respect the speed category and MDA limitations to assure terrain clearance at the circling MDA while the specified minimum visibility for the speed category actually being flown exists.
Airplanes fit into only one speed category based upon the 1.3 Vso at MLW. However if the actual approach speed to be used is higher than the maximum for the category which the airplane is certified to is used, the higher speed category minimums must be used. This is the case with the Challenger and many other types because they circle at a speed which takes them into Cat D. In many types, if the airplane is well below MLW, even the additional speed required by the reduced flaps/higher airspeed circling procedure may still allow the airplane to remain within the certified speed category when circling. Such is the case with Hawkers and Westwinds. Both Cat C airplanes which can be circled at lower landing weights and remain within Cat C for circling purposes.
Something else to consider:
When performing a circling approach under IFR, descent from MDA is normally initiated at a point when that descent is necessary to maneuver to the landing runway at "normal" rates of descent using "normal" maneuvering. On most flatland airports this means an MDA of perhaps 500' or 600' above the airport elevation. Starting descent from MDA on the base leg or during the turn to final is generally acceptable to place the aircraft in a position to land. At ASE you have 2,400' to descend from MDA to the airport. To keep the airplane within the protected circling area and still descend at normal rates requires that the descent be initiated about 2 1/2 to 3 minutes from touchdown. Probably best to start down from somewhere on the crosswind turn of what amounts to an overhead approach. I've only practiced that one in the sim a few times during the annual "special airport" qualification training and always in full flap landing configuration.
Anyway Aspen ops are always an interesting discussion. Best to make sure all things are considered before making any grand proclamations of purportedly indisputable truth though!
westhawk
The reason for the limitations on approach speed category has to do with circling radius and terrain clearance. If you accept a visual approach or proceed under VFR, you are no longer obligated to respect the speed category limitations or comply with any charted MDA. It's all on you to maintain visual terrain clearance, so good planning and judgment is required. On an IAP, you must respect the speed category and MDA limitations to assure terrain clearance at the circling MDA while the specified minimum visibility for the speed category actually being flown exists.
Airplanes fit into only one speed category based upon the 1.3 Vso at MLW. However if the actual approach speed to be used is higher than the maximum for the category which the airplane is certified to is used, the higher speed category minimums must be used. This is the case with the Challenger and many other types because they circle at a speed which takes them into Cat D. In many types, if the airplane is well below MLW, even the additional speed required by the reduced flaps/higher airspeed circling procedure may still allow the airplane to remain within the certified speed category when circling. Such is the case with Hawkers and Westwinds. Both Cat C airplanes which can be circled at lower landing weights and remain within Cat C for circling purposes.
Something else to consider:
When performing a circling approach under IFR, descent from MDA is normally initiated at a point when that descent is necessary to maneuver to the landing runway at "normal" rates of descent using "normal" maneuvering. On most flatland airports this means an MDA of perhaps 500' or 600' above the airport elevation. Starting descent from MDA on the base leg or during the turn to final is generally acceptable to place the aircraft in a position to land. At ASE you have 2,400' to descend from MDA to the airport. To keep the airplane within the protected circling area and still descend at normal rates requires that the descent be initiated about 2 1/2 to 3 minutes from touchdown. Probably best to start down from somewhere on the crosswind turn of what amounts to an overhead approach. I've only practiced that one in the sim a few times during the annual "special airport" qualification training and always in full flap landing configuration.
Anyway Aspen ops are always an interesting discussion. Best to make sure all things are considered before making any grand proclamations of purportedly indisputable truth though!
westhawk
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On most flatland airports this means an MDA of perhaps 500' or 600' above the airport elevation. Starting descent from MDA on the base leg or during the turn to final is generally acceptable to place the aircraft in a position to land. At ASE you have 2,400' to descend from MDA to the airport. To keep the airplane within the protected circling area and still descend at normal rates requires that the descent be initiated about 2 1/2 to 3 minutes from touchdown. Probably best to start down from somewhere on the crosswind turn of what amounts to an overhead approach. I've only practiced that one in the sim a few times during the annual "special airport" qualification training and always in full flap landing configuration.
I recall that if you didn't get slowed and fully configured pretty much by Red Table or you weren't going to get down. However, that's for the charted visual procedure that most business jets had to do if they couldn't meet category D circling requirements (even straight in to 15). I suppose if you were doing an instrument approach in an aircraft authorized for Category C circling you would fly it the same way...thus...fully configured during the entire circling maneuver....but you would be straight in landing with minimums at around 2400.
What you are describing sounds like an operator approved special procedure and it sounds like you are describing a left downwind to runway 33 which has been a point of contention in this thread. You mentioned entering on a crosswind which is why I'm asking.
Do you recall if it was left or right downwind you were trained for and was it a jet or a turboprop?