Flap retraction
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: london, UK
Age: 57
Posts: 550
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Which regs?
Honestly, please just tell me which regs?
And as for being a test pilot, this is what the AFM tells us to do!
Flight Safety told me today its a company wide SOP and the instructor who I spoke to couldnt tell me any more than that. I'm going to call FS in Montreal later and am still hoping to hear back from Bombardier.
by the way Cldrv, its pretty offensive telling me I'm a test pilot when you are not willing to tell me your company profiles, how you fly them or tell me what this regulation is that you keep believing exists. The relevant sections of FAR25 and JAR25 deal with OEI operations as discussed and quoted earlier in this thread. It is likely that you have confused this with all engines operating. The other regulations which may impinge on this are contained within ICAO 8168 document 2. And I know where that bit is and what it applies to. And it doesnt apply to this!
Honestly, please just tell me which regs?
And as for being a test pilot, this is what the AFM tells us to do!
Flight Safety told me today its a company wide SOP and the instructor who I spoke to couldnt tell me any more than that. I'm going to call FS in Montreal later and am still hoping to hear back from Bombardier.
by the way Cldrv, its pretty offensive telling me I'm a test pilot when you are not willing to tell me your company profiles, how you fly them or tell me what this regulation is that you keep believing exists. The relevant sections of FAR25 and JAR25 deal with OEI operations as discussed and quoted earlier in this thread. It is likely that you have confused this with all engines operating. The other regulations which may impinge on this are contained within ICAO 8168 document 2. And I know where that bit is and what it applies to. And it doesnt apply to this!
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: MAN
Posts: 769
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Final attempt here Tom.
You are not guaranteed your 2.7% unless you keep your flaps at TO till 400 and limit your bank angles (and there are some lateral/wind restrictions to take into account also). Raising your flaps before 400 will make you a test pilot if you do have an engine failure as the aircraft, as per the regs only needs to be certified in a single engine/TO configuration until 400 to assure the climb gradient, depending on how many engines are hanging of the back.
Ignoring the 400 ft, means there is no chart available to you in the case of an engine failure if your flaps are in transit/up to avoid that block of flats/school/orphanage in your takeoff path.
Flying is about managing risk, planning for the worst case scenario and flying accurately.
You have shown in your posts in this thread that you don't follow your SOP's, you don't follow your Part B, you keep using terms like "or there about" when telling us how you fly your departures and speeds.
You are not guaranteed your 2.7% unless you keep your flaps at TO till 400 and limit your bank angles (and there are some lateral/wind restrictions to take into account also). Raising your flaps before 400 will make you a test pilot if you do have an engine failure as the aircraft, as per the regs only needs to be certified in a single engine/TO configuration until 400 to assure the climb gradient, depending on how many engines are hanging of the back.
Ignoring the 400 ft, means there is no chart available to you in the case of an engine failure if your flaps are in transit/up to avoid that block of flats/school/orphanage in your takeoff path.
Flying is about managing risk, planning for the worst case scenario and flying accurately.
You have shown in your posts in this thread that you don't follow your SOP's, you don't follow your Part B, you keep using terms like "or there about" when telling us how you fly your departures and speeds.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: london, UK
Age: 57
Posts: 550
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dear all
I have deleted a couple of posts which were specific to CLRDRVR because they were a bit personal - I got irritated that he didnt seem to understand what the thrust of this thread is and has accused me of being a test pilot when, in fact, I'm advocating doing things exactly in accordance with the AFM. But there's no need for me to actually be rude which I was so its withdrawn.
However,
read your post 166
yes I do
I am final segment and max continuous. I don't have those charts at home but they are in the AFM because I am time limited to 5 mins at max thrust on one and Bombardier allow for an intermediate level off then a further climb to 1500 feet. I have looked at these charts before and actually forms part of why what I'm saying is correct. Thats how I know I am above the gradient. I didnt need the 1500 foot acceleration platform to get to V2+20 and raise the flap.
now, three things..
what profile do you fly?
what is the regulation?
how about we go through this with a professional for a grand?
I have deleted a couple of posts which were specific to CLRDRVR because they were a bit personal - I got irritated that he didnt seem to understand what the thrust of this thread is and has accused me of being a test pilot when, in fact, I'm advocating doing things exactly in accordance with the AFM. But there's no need for me to actually be rude which I was so its withdrawn.
However,
read your post 166
yes I do
I am final segment and max continuous. I don't have those charts at home but they are in the AFM because I am time limited to 5 mins at max thrust on one and Bombardier allow for an intermediate level off then a further climb to 1500 feet. I have looked at these charts before and actually forms part of why what I'm saying is correct. Thats how I know I am above the gradient. I didnt need the 1500 foot acceleration platform to get to V2+20 and raise the flap.
now, three things..
what profile do you fly?
what is the regulation?
how about we go through this with a professional for a grand?
Last edited by tommoutrie; 20th Nov 2012 at 18:22.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: london, UK
Age: 57
Posts: 550
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
hello DA50
which aircraft is that for and is it in the AFM or is that from somewhere else?
Plenty of other posters are showing that for some types there does not appear to be a 400 foot condition. I am interested to find an AFM with the condition in so that I can work out where it comes from - nobody seems to know!
What aircraft are you flying and what profile do you use and where does it come from?
thanks
Tom
which aircraft is that for and is it in the AFM or is that from somewhere else?
Plenty of other posters are showing that for some types there does not appear to be a 400 foot condition. I am interested to find an AFM with the condition in so that I can work out where it comes from - nobody seems to know!
What aircraft are you flying and what profile do you use and where does it come from?
thanks
Tom
Join Date: May 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 52
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Tom,
Have to agree with you here. I don't understand why CLDRVR has to be so aggresive and rude about a very worthwhile discussion.
At the end of the day I fly two types. One says flaps up at V2+25 and the other says flaps up when climb established. Neither type mentions anything about 400'.
Maybe i am flying under different regs to CLDRVR but maybe he could quote what reg mentions the 400' rule. Truly interested to learn.
Have to agree with you here. I don't understand why CLDRVR has to be so aggresive and rude about a very worthwhile discussion.
At the end of the day I fly two types. One says flaps up at V2+25 and the other says flaps up when climb established. Neither type mentions anything about 400'.
Maybe i am flying under different regs to CLDRVR but maybe he could quote what reg mentions the 400' rule. Truly interested to learn.
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Your nearest Marriott
Posts: 1,127
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I actually think the cldrvr deserves the money....
> You are not guaranteed your 2.7% unless you keep your flaps at TO till 400 and limit your bank angles (and there are some lateral/wind restrictions to take into account also). Raising your flaps before 400 will make you a test pilot if you do have an engine failure as the aircraft, as per the regs only needs to be certified in a single engine/TO configuration until 400 to assure the climb gradient, depending on how many engines are hanging of the back.
Ignoring the 400 ft, means there is no chart available to you in the case of an engine failure if your flaps are in transit/up to avoid that block of flats/school/orphanage in your takeoff path.
> You are not guaranteed your 2.7% unless you keep your flaps at TO till 400 and limit your bank angles (and there are some lateral/wind restrictions to take into account also). Raising your flaps before 400 will make you a test pilot if you do have an engine failure as the aircraft, as per the regs only needs to be certified in a single engine/TO configuration until 400 to assure the climb gradient, depending on how many engines are hanging of the back.
Ignoring the 400 ft, means there is no chart available to you in the case of an engine failure if your flaps are in transit/up to avoid that block of flats/school/orphanage in your takeoff path.
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: ME
Posts: 5,502
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think this kind of potentially flawed logic is very widespread indeed and I don't know why its happened
I can't fly what they say is correct
Does anyone disagree that the majority of operators do not fly business jets in accordance with either NADP1 or 2?
We have calculated takeoff weights based on the FAR defined flight profile for an engine out. Following your logic and with the approval of the AFM, we can takeoff and retract the gear and flaps almost simultaneously (V2+15-25 weight dependant), so we are at VFS at lets say 200 feet, now an engine fails, what guarantee do i have that i will clear the obstacles in the flight path, you can tell me that I have a better rate of climb at VFS clean, but please provide one chart that allows me to prove that I made a "calculated risk" rather than a "gut feeling"?
We also have specific engine failure procedures with the turn radius calculated on speeds associated with Flaps down, if we go flaps up and accelerate, we then have no guarantee that we can stay in the takeoff cone. So rather than have specific profiles for these airports, we stick with the same non-noise related profile all the time.
Then there is the issue of acceleration altitudes higher than standard due to obstacle clearance requirements, how would you deal with these? Use a different profile?
To me, thats the crux of the matter, its about risk assessment and the only way that i can assess that risk is to follow the profiles published in the AFM.
Mutt
Last edited by mutt; 20th Nov 2012 at 21:33.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: london, UK
Age: 57
Posts: 550
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
dood.. making it bold and making the text bigger don't make it correct!
Just been on the phone with Flight Safety in Montreal. There is no height restriction in the Bombardier AFM. There is no regulation at all relating to height on an all engines operating take off. As I explained to CLDRVr the reason that the gradient is assured is that by taking the flaps up I am immediately in the final segment climb. With max thrust on the remaining engine its part of the certification that I will maintain the 2.4% (its gross climb by the way not net climb and because theres no level third segment this is easier for me to achieve). Thats without any speculative information about already being well above the required gradient because the failure happened when I'd already been climbing all engines and arguements about take off climb increment because I got airborne earlier than I would have if one had failed at V1. Chaps you have turned what I hoped would be a useful technical discussion into a bit of a personal attack and accusations have been made by Clrdrv and others that I'm doing something out of line with the AFM. I'm absolutely not.
400 feet is a company SOP at Flight Safety and talking to the guy there I don't particularly disagree with their logic (especially for the Challenger) - as he said to me its roughly consistent with V2+20 anyway so why am I worried?
I do, however, think this information is important for aircraft with higher power to weight ratios and wings that are more efficient at lower speeds - the XLS, Soverign, probably the Hawker etc.
If you look at the start of this thread I was discussing pilots leaving flap retraction to some other arbitrary height (400 feet, 1000 feet, 1500 feet, whatever) when a flap retraction height does not exist anywhere in the regulations for all engines operation. The FAR's and the JAR's both refer to the case where the critical powerplant has failed at V1, not the all engines operating case.
I object very strongly to being called a test pilot and a bar practice pilot. Very few on PPrune use their proper names when posting and the anonymity means you can say what you like, you can make up regulations, you can do whatever you want really but I post under my own name because I carefully work through the discussion and stick by what I say. If I'm wrong, post the regulation and that way we all learn (me especially).
If anyone wants to have a proper discussion about this maybe you could give me a call instead - I'm not really interested in a slagging match. I just wanted to really get to the bottom of all this.
Tom +447850 915510
Just been on the phone with Flight Safety in Montreal. There is no height restriction in the Bombardier AFM. There is no regulation at all relating to height on an all engines operating take off. As I explained to CLDRVr the reason that the gradient is assured is that by taking the flaps up I am immediately in the final segment climb. With max thrust on the remaining engine its part of the certification that I will maintain the 2.4% (its gross climb by the way not net climb and because theres no level third segment this is easier for me to achieve). Thats without any speculative information about already being well above the required gradient because the failure happened when I'd already been climbing all engines and arguements about take off climb increment because I got airborne earlier than I would have if one had failed at V1. Chaps you have turned what I hoped would be a useful technical discussion into a bit of a personal attack and accusations have been made by Clrdrv and others that I'm doing something out of line with the AFM. I'm absolutely not.
400 feet is a company SOP at Flight Safety and talking to the guy there I don't particularly disagree with their logic (especially for the Challenger) - as he said to me its roughly consistent with V2+20 anyway so why am I worried?
I do, however, think this information is important for aircraft with higher power to weight ratios and wings that are more efficient at lower speeds - the XLS, Soverign, probably the Hawker etc.
If you look at the start of this thread I was discussing pilots leaving flap retraction to some other arbitrary height (400 feet, 1000 feet, 1500 feet, whatever) when a flap retraction height does not exist anywhere in the regulations for all engines operation. The FAR's and the JAR's both refer to the case where the critical powerplant has failed at V1, not the all engines operating case.
I object very strongly to being called a test pilot and a bar practice pilot. Very few on PPrune use their proper names when posting and the anonymity means you can say what you like, you can make up regulations, you can do whatever you want really but I post under my own name because I carefully work through the discussion and stick by what I say. If I'm wrong, post the regulation and that way we all learn (me especially).
If anyone wants to have a proper discussion about this maybe you could give me a call instead - I'm not really interested in a slagging match. I just wanted to really get to the bottom of all this.
Tom +447850 915510
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: london, UK
Age: 57
Posts: 550
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mutt you raise a point about turn radii as described in book 2 of doc 8168. I don't deal with this problem by just flying all departures in the same configuration. If the turn radii require specific speeds that mean the use of flap I brief the use of flap for that reason. That's pretty rare for me as most of my flying now is in Africa but there are plenty where I do this in Europe.
Your comment about acceleration altitudes higher that 1500 feet interests me. Whats your AA out of Geneva? I'm quite happy to go offline with the chat and do it by email if you like but I'm interested in your concept of selecting an AA higher than 1500 feet.
By the way, what do you fly and whats your actual profile for a noise abatement departure and a non noise departure?
Cheers
Tom
By the way, can you post me a reference to a flap retraction height in a Boeing manual. Its not in the 757 manual because I've checked and I was on the phone to a guy doing a 737 rating earlier who has checked with his instructors and its not in the 737 manual either. As we have already established earlier in the thread, its not in the Gulfstream manual, its not in the Bombardier manual and I haven't seen a post with an AFM reference which gives 400 feet as a flap retraction criteria yet. I'm not saying that one doesn't exist, I'm simply saying I haven't seen one and nobody, for all their comments, has posted one yet.
Your comment about acceleration altitudes higher that 1500 feet interests me. Whats your AA out of Geneva? I'm quite happy to go offline with the chat and do it by email if you like but I'm interested in your concept of selecting an AA higher than 1500 feet.
By the way, what do you fly and whats your actual profile for a noise abatement departure and a non noise departure?
Cheers
Tom
By the way, can you post me a reference to a flap retraction height in a Boeing manual. Its not in the 757 manual because I've checked and I was on the phone to a guy doing a 737 rating earlier who has checked with his instructors and its not in the 737 manual either. As we have already established earlier in the thread, its not in the Gulfstream manual, its not in the Bombardier manual and I haven't seen a post with an AFM reference which gives 400 feet as a flap retraction criteria yet. I'm not saying that one doesn't exist, I'm simply saying I haven't seen one and nobody, for all their comments, has posted one yet.
Last edited by tommoutrie; 20th Nov 2012 at 21:55.
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Your nearest Marriott
Posts: 1,127
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dude....
I can't seem to quote off the iPad for some or other reason, so I highlighted the poignant bit.
I would like to ask you one question that will settle this for me.
Can you accurately predict when you are going to have an engine failure?
I can't seem to quote off the iPad for some or other reason, so I highlighted the poignant bit.
I would like to ask you one question that will settle this for me.
Can you accurately predict when you are going to have an engine failure?
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: ME
Posts: 5,502
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
but I'm interested in your concept of selecting an AA higher than 1500 feet.
I'm far away from home, so no specific data for Geneva with me.170 KIAS, 1500 feet FLCH (Power Change) 3000 feet accelerate to 200 KIAS, Flaps up. G4.
Have the guy in Montreal give you a "No Technical Objection" letter for flying that profile?
Mutt
Last edited by mutt; 20th Nov 2012 at 21:58.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: london, UK
Age: 57
Posts: 550
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mutt. What on earth are higher than standard acceleration altitudes?
Whats the certification process for that? Is that in the FAR's - never seen it. Is it in the AFM?
Whats the certification process for that? Is that in the FAR's - never seen it. Is it in the AFM?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: london, UK
Age: 57
Posts: 550
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
amusing really, I'm still the only one that actually posted a profile.
What profile for both noise abatement and a normal departure and on what aircraft do any of you fly?
What profile for both noise abatement and a normal departure and on what aircraft do any of you fly?
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: ME
Posts: 5,502
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As I told you, our standard acceleration height is 800 feet, not the FAR minimum of 400 feet, so anything higher than 800 feet is non standard for us. As i said, extended second segment as per the AFM.
In fact if you look at the ACJ, you will find Min Acceleration Height and Max Acceleration Height (based on the thrust limit), so this is more common than you think.
Nose abatement for G4, 170 KIAS, 1500 feet FLCH (Power Change) 3000 feet accelerate to 200 KIAS, Flaps up.
Normal Profile, target speed 200 kts, 1000 feet Flaps Up, FLCH (Power Change)
Mutt
In fact if you look at the ACJ, you will find Min Acceleration Height and Max Acceleration Height (based on the thrust limit), so this is more common than you think.
Nose abatement for G4, 170 KIAS, 1500 feet FLCH (Power Change) 3000 feet accelerate to 200 KIAS, Flaps up.
Normal Profile, target speed 200 kts, 1000 feet Flaps Up, FLCH (Power Change)
Mutt
Last edited by mutt; 20th Nov 2012 at 22:06.
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: My views - Not my employer!
Posts: 1,031
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Tom,
Ref the Boeings, the two engine profile is something along the lines of (non noise abatement)
R/w to Aa- v2 to v2+20 with full thrust or derate.
At Aa, select climb thrust and accelerate.
Final flap up at around v2 + 60 ish knots, can be more or can be less, depends on weight. Min clean speed v2 + 80 ish, depends on model.
Hence the initial climb speed will never be lower than flap up speed. If I retracted flaps below Aa, I'd loose my job....
Background - 10+ years 737 cl, currently Airbus...
Ref the Boeings, the two engine profile is something along the lines of (non noise abatement)
R/w to Aa- v2 to v2+20 with full thrust or derate.
At Aa, select climb thrust and accelerate.
Final flap up at around v2 + 60 ish knots, can be more or can be less, depends on weight. Min clean speed v2 + 80 ish, depends on model.
Hence the initial climb speed will never be lower than flap up speed. If I retracted flaps below Aa, I'd loose my job....
Background - 10+ years 737 cl, currently Airbus...