Flap retraction

[tommoutrie]

noise abatement, pitch to keep the speed at V2 to V2+10.

Non noise am already clean so am final segment - pitch for V2+20, when I get to 1500 feet accelerate to enroute of 190, keep max thrust until time limit runs out and set max continuous

What do you do with an engine failure at 400 feet? My arguement is that lots of operators are V2+50 and increasing at that point and I honestly haven't got a clue what their plan is at that point.

[cldrvr]

My arguement is that lots of operators are V2+50 and increasing at that point
and I honestly haven't got a clue what their plan is at that point.

That makes no sense either, how do YOU assure your second segment obstacle clearance if you have already raised your flaps and lost an engine at that point?

[cldrvr]

So why don't you tell me exactly what your profile is

We do not raise flaps before 400' as the regs/OM dictates. You are now on page 8 here trying to justify why you do not need to follow 1) your part B 2) what you have been trained 3) second segment obstacle clearance.

[cldrvr]

Tom, you still haven't answered my question. You ignore the 400', raise your flaps when you like. Now what if you lose an engine, how do you assure your second segment?

[tommoutrie]

Hardly anyone flies noise abatement correctly in business jets - I'm one of the few that tries to. The power to weight and lack of inclusion of derate procedures make it very difficult at anything other than high weights.

As I said before, noise is another thread. Does anyone disagree that the majority of operators do not fly business jets in accordance with either NADP1 or 2?

I'm one of the few that post on here with my real name and actually try to tackle the genuine problems that we face. So who do you fly for, what do you do for NADP1 and 2, what do you do for non noise - give me a typical take off profile on a short european sector at 42,000lbs out of Farnborough for instance.

[tommoutrie]

Cldrvr - just seen your post about raising the flaps

Which regs prohibit raising the flaps before 400 feet? Been asking that since the start of the thread! What is the regulation?

[tommoutrie]

I am assured of obstacle clearance because I fly 2 engines from V0 to Vef and i've done it all according to what the AFM says. I've wasted no energy at all climbing against drag which is NOT the case if you leave the flaps down.

How does anyone else justify it when they climb at up to 190kts with the flaps down?

[tommoutrie]

The aircraft always climbs better clean. The point of the profile with an engine failure at V1 is that you CAN'T accelerate enough to raise the flap AND maintain a sensible gradient. So you cope with the degraded performance until 1500 feet where you accelerate and raise the flap.

Otherwise, whats the point of raising the flap at all?

[tommoutrie]

Look.. I'm not shy of how I operate an aircraft . I'm really happy to discuss it with anyone that can help with the quandry - we can discuss it with the manufacturer, flight safety, flugprestansa, the CAA, whoever. I simply want to know what the conflicting information adds up to.

Its bananas to fly a bastardized version of the OEI profile when you have both engines running - its why the NADP is so tough for us.

[cldrvr]

So you cope with the degraded performance until 1500 feet where you accelerate
and raise the flap.

OK, so you operate your aircraft clean soon after takeoff? What height, roughly do you raise the flaps then, as you don't use 400 ft.

[tommoutrie]

Here is your post

We do not raise flaps before 400' as the regs/OM dictates. You are now on page 8 here trying to justify why you do not need to follow 1) your part B 2) what you have been trained 3) second segment obstacle clearance.

What is the regulation?

Where does it say it in the OM in relation to an all engine operating take off?

What profile do you fly? Do you exceed the flap up speed and if so by how much?

I'm not trying to justify it on page 8 - my argument is exactly the same as it was on page 1. Nobody else has put numbers to what they do. Not one single pilot. Nobody has told me what this regulation is that you've stated exists.
It all adds up to everyone does it like this because they do it like this and nobody ever asks the question.

So I'm asking you - please can you post on here exactly as I have done the profile you fly for noise and non noise departures?

ta..

[cldrvr]

Tom, I have asked the same question 3 times, at what height do you retract the flaps, as you don't use the 400 ft.

[tommoutrie]

to answer your post 152 - I've got no idea what height and I honestly don't care. The flaps can travel because the speed is correct. They don't care what height the aircraft is at and until I see a regulation which means I can't do what the AFM says I think its a good idea to do what the AFM says.

This isnt about one type - its a problem which affects different aircraft in different ways. It was more difficult on the CJ2+ which tended to be right up against the high end of the speed range for the take off flap. Its why I ended up taking off flapless under almost all conditions.

I had a load of pilots tell me I was wrong for doing that too..

[tommoutrie]

I keep answering that. Is anyone else struggling with this? I don't care what the height is - I only care that I'm going fast enough. The height is utterly immaterial.

To help out a bit further. I'm guessing but typically, max take off, probably around 400 feet. Light, maybe 200.

Now. Whats the regulation? What profile do you fly?

[cldrvr]

Light, maybe 200.

Good, we got an answer, now let's assume you are having a bad day and your engine fails at 209 ft. Can you give me your second segment climb gradient from your AFM, use the chart that has the engine failure at 209 ft, clean config.

As I don't know how fast your flaps travel, give me the climb gradient also for flaps in transit, as the engine failed 9 ft after you selected flaps up.

[tommoutrie]

I'm not second segment at that point. I have already accelerated and am climbing at my final segment gradient. Slightly better than that in fact because I'm still using max thrust rather than max continuous. The gradient is better than the flapped climb because I'm clean. The only reason for using the 1500 foot acceleration altitude would have been to get from V2 to V2+20 and then to clean up.

Now

What profile do you fly

What is the regulation?

[tommoutrie]

The portion of the climb where the flaps are transitioning is totally irrelevent which is why it isnt quoted anywhere. The reason it is irrelevent is that I have been all engines operating to that point. My engine didnt fail on the ground at V1 - it failed after a successful take off and climb to 209 feet.

now...

Whats the regulation?

What profiles do you fly?

[tommoutrie]

here's a question for you. Which configuration gives you the better climb? Take off flap, V2 or clean at the flap up speed?

[tommoutrie]

if your answer is V2 and flapped, whats the point of cleaning up at all? Why not climb to MSA in that configuration?

(please don't tell me thats what you would do...)

[cldrvr]

I give up. Tom, you go ahead and go through life being a test pilot on your takeoffs, ignoring your Part B/SOP's and taking procedures from guys you talk to in the bar downroute, I will stick to the regs if you don't mind.