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Old 23rd Jan 2012, 14:05
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Question Logbook entries

Aviators,

recently I had a discussion about what I can and what I canīt log in regards to flight time etc. Imagine the following situation, I fly under FAR (FAA, US) on a learjet 60 as an SIC in a part 91 operation. I tried to look for answers myself in FAR part 61 (certification), unfortunately without the desired outcome. Some of the questions might seem obvious but I would like to know where I can find that information in the FAR.

1: If the PIC performs the landing, can I still log the landing?

2: If the flight time is 3 hours and 2 of those hours were IMC, can I log these hours (actual instrument) on a flight when I am operating the aircraft as an SIC? Or can only the PIC log those hours?

3: Can I log instrument approaches when I am operating the aircraft as an SIC? What if the PIC flies the approach, and I assist him in that approach? (basically you do an instrument approach together, it's just that one pilot is actually flying and the other pilot (sic) is providing information/call outs on the approach)

Any information to clarify this is very welcome and appreciated!

Thank you in advance, DutchDutch
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Old 23rd Jan 2012, 14:13
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If its a multi crew aircraft (MPA), or multi pilot operation, then you can log IMC time, night, approach etc also as PNF.

Personally I only log landings where I am PF and I think this is the way we are supposed to do it both in FAA and EASA land.

CP
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Old 23rd Jan 2012, 19:10
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Under FAR 61.51 (g) Logging instrument time. (1) A person may log instrument time only for that flight time when the person operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions.

The operative word here is "operates"

You can only claim the landing if you actually do it.
You can only log instrument if you actually flew it.

If its my SIC's leg he logs both as SIC, I just log the time as PIC, if it is my leg, I log both and he will log the time as SIC.

This is also on a part 91 operation in a two crew jet. Only one person can actually be a handling pilot at any one time, collaboration does not count.
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Old 23rd Jan 2012, 20:25
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The operative word here is "operates"

You can only log instrument if you actually flew it.
Not saying you are wrong, because I am really not sure, but is that the correct interpretation? I would say that if you are part of the minimum crew, required to operate a specific flight, you can log the time as PIC, or SIC, AND as instrument time.....?
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Old 23rd Jan 2012, 20:34
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Certainly not the case with the FAA, only one person can actually be flying at any one time, instrument time is that time when the conditions are less than VMC, many folks log instrument time as all the time on an IFR flight, also not correct unless a view limiting device is used. This can be researched easily on many websites, I am also a CFI, CFII, MEI and AGI.
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Old 24th Jan 2012, 03:57
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Like most questions, the FAA lawyers have posted their answer. This is from a letter in 1999.

"You first ask whether it would be proper under FAR 61.51(g) for a properly qualified SIC to log instrument flight time flown during instrument conditions while serving as the SIC in Part 121 operations on an aircraft that requires two crewmembers. The answer is yes. As a qualified SIC, and as a required crewmember, you are "operating" the aircraft within the meaning of FAR 61.51(g). Therefore, as the SIC operating the aircraft "solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions," you would log that time as SIC flown in instrument conditions. Naturally, the PIC logs the time as PIC flown in instrument conditions.

You then ask if, for the purposes of maintaining instrument currency, an instrument approach on the above flight flown by the PIC can be logged as an instrument approach by the SIC. *The answer is no. As the SIC you have not "performed" the approach as contemplated by FAR 61.57(c) because you were not the sole manipulator of the controls during the approach."
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Old 24th Jan 2012, 04:25
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As posted by MarkerInbound my previous comment was not accurate:

2: If the flight time is 3 hours and 2 of those hours were IMC, can I log these hours (actual instrument) on a flight when I am operating the aircraft as an SIC? Or can only the PIC log those hours?

The answer is obviously yes, I should have read the question more carefully.
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Old 24th Jan 2012, 17:03
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Answers

Thanks for this information, I appreciate it! I think we all agree that the rules are sometimes written in such a way that it's very easy to misunderstand. Below I wrote down my understanding of the information provided.

1: If the PIC performs the landing, can I still log the landing?

ANSWER: When the PIC 'operates' the airplane during his leg/landing you can't log this landing as an SIC since you didn't 'operate' the airplane. However this does make sense to me, as far as I can tell there is not a written rule that states the above! (correct me if I am wrong)


2: If the flight time is 3 hours and 2 of those hours were IMC, can I log these hours (actual instrument) on a flight when I am operating the aircraft as an SIC? Or can only the PIC log those hours?

Answer: Not only the PIC can log those instrument hours, the SIC can log these hours also even if he wasn't the PF but since a minimum of 2 crew is necessary in this case (multi crew jet) that rule is no longer 'effective'.


3: Can I log instrument approaches when I am operating the aircraft as an SIC? What if the PIC flies the approach, and I assist him in that approach? (basically you do an instrument approach together, it's just that one pilot is actually flying and the other pilot (sic) is providing information/call outs on the approach)

Answer: No you can't, according to FAR 61.51G you must 'operate' the airplane to log those approaches.
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Old 24th Jan 2012, 19:23
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1. PF logs landing.

2. Correct, both pilots log IMC, night etc.

3. Correct, but who logs approaches anyway?! Unless you need it for a training syllabus etc.....
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Old 24th Jan 2012, 19:34
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The FAA has their rules and then the Office of the Chief Counsel of the FAA will answer questions about them and give their interpretation. Since they are the folks that will write the violation, their thoughts matter.

You can put anything you you want in your logbook. However, if you use improperly logged events to show currency it will cause problems.

1. Your understanding is correct as explained by the the FAA lawyers. You need to separate "operate" and "manipulate." to count for currency, you have to be the "sole manipulator" of the the controls. Actually have your hands on the yoke.

2. Yes both can log it. I don't know what you mean by "that rule is no longer effective." Remember, operate v. manipulate.

3. Again, the the better answer is you must manipulate the controls through the landing.
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Old 24th Jan 2012, 20:29
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Markerinbound, let me try to explain what I mean with 'no longer effective'.

quote (from one of your previous posts)

As a qualified SIC, and as a required crewmember, you are "operating" the aircraft within the meaning of FAR 61.51(g). Therefore, as the SIC operating the aircraft "solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions,"

Basically from what I understand is that you are saying because in this particular situation (part 91, multi crew, jet) it requires 2 pilot operation they can both log instrument time, however when it comes to landing the airplane (both pilots are still necessary since the sic is a required crew member) but one person can't log the landing.

To summarize, because you are a required crew member (as a SIC) you can log instrument time as well as the PIC but this does NOT apply when it comes to landing the airplane even though you are still a required crew member.

In my opinion it's confusing that you can log instrument time even though you are not flying or operating the airplane BUT you can't log the landings even though it's basically the same principle. (in my opinion)

I hope I made clear what I am trying to say, but again thanks for the imput I have my answers and that's what it's all about!

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Old 25th Jan 2012, 04:31
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Even as PIC I've only ever logged instrument time when PF, reading the above posts I've perhaps sold myself short of a few hours over the years!

I'm one of those who logs all IFR time as instrument time (when PF), but according to NuName's post I'm possibly wrong in doing so.
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Old 25th Jan 2012, 07:28
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Being as I am normaly between FL300-FL400 even on crappy days I do not usually find myself in IMC for more than 20-40 minutes total for both ends.
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Old 26th Jan 2012, 13:46
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DutchBoy I agree it's confusing. Our Feds consider IFR as a condition like night time. And like RAFAT I've only logged the instrument time that I was the "handling" pilot. It is sort of silly when the autopilot does 96 percent of the flying.

Capt. Prop, in FAA land, you have have logged 6 approaches in the last 6 months to be current. Or have had a check ride blah, blah, blah.
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Old 27th Jan 2012, 04:34
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RAFAT,

I'm one of those who logs all IFR time as instrument time (when PF), but according to NuName's post I'm possibly wrong in doing so.
Delete 'possibly' to make your sentence correct There was a recent thread where an Indian pilot tried to tell us all that he was correct in logging all IFR time as 'Actual'. Despite been shown the relevant DGCA, FAA, CAA and CASA regulations that proved contrary to his wisdom, he still insisted he was correct because a mate down the pub told him it was okay (alright, not down the pub, maybe, but I know you'll get my drift). I won't bore you by quoting the references (especially as it means I'll have to go back and find them) but please believe me when I say that you can only log instrument time when you're either in actual or properly simulated IMC conditions (sole reference to instruments etc). IFR has absolutely nothing to do with it.
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Old 27th Jan 2012, 06:52
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Pontius

Absolutely correct and I find it stunning that anyone with more that one brain cell could think otherwise.
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Old 27th Jan 2012, 08:39
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DutchDutch: Take a step back and consider this........... What is the point of keeping a logbook?

It`s main purpose is to provide a legal record of flight experience(s). Why on earth would you ever think that it was relevant for two pilots on the same crew to both be claiming to have performed a landing? This has nothing to do with being a "required crewmember". The same logic is obvious about the logging of Instrument Time as opposed to Time under IFR.

When I used to to Base Training on the aircraft, in a year I may have "supervised" up to 400 landings without ever having actually performed one myself! Do you think that I should have logged these! Of course not!
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Old 29th Jan 2012, 03:25
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Pontius & NuName,

Back in the day when I was a young F/O and keen to ensure that my logbook was filled out completely correctly, I put the 'Instrument flight time' question to my Base Captain, he referred me to my logbook instructions page, and CAA regulations, which stated that instrument flight time is "Time during which a pilot is controlling an aircraft in flight solely by reference to instruments."

Now, where I disagree with you both, although I stand to be corrected by a valid point of reference, is that IFR is relevant to this. NuName, when you're tootling along at FL300-FL400, IMC or VMC has no relevance as you're almost certainly in IFR airspace and navigating by reference to the instrumentation in front of you. That is clearly instrument time as defined by the above guidelines. If en-route you're cleared to a certain waypoint, you don't turn towards the waypoint using a visual reference, but again using the instrumentation in front of you. IMC alone does not determine instrument time.

As I personally operate mostly in IFR airspace, as soon as the wheels come up I'm navigating on instruments, even if the autopilot is in and coupled I'm still monitoring it. The same is the case at the other end (unless cleared for a visual approach) with the approach being on instruments too, including radar vectors.
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Old 29th Jan 2012, 03:44
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RAFAT

For the FAA, instrument flight time is only that time when the conditions are less than VMC, or simulated instrument flight time when a view limiting device is used. At night it is flying at night, not instrument flight, at FL300+ the same apply's, I am not navigating with a half mil chart for sure but neither am I controllling the aircraft by SOLE reference to instruments.
It does not require a great deal of thought to fully understand why INSTRUMENT FLIGHT only should be logged and NOT FLIGHT UNDER INSTRUMENT FLIGHT RULES. A new PPL with no IR rating or IMC may file and fly IFR as long as they remain within the operating rules of their licence.
Please explain to me the value of logging time spent under IFR, I am sometimes having a meal, going to the toilet, filling in the log or reading the newspaper, hell, sometimes I'm having a kip, should we make a note of whether we were awake or not.
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Old 29th Jan 2012, 03:56
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I agree with NuName; it is a nonsense to suggest that all IFR time is spent on instruments. Watching the autopilot follow the magenta line is not flying by SOLE reference to instruments. Looking out the window on a gin-clear day while the aircraft climbs in VNAV is not flying by SOLE reference to instruments. I'm quite sure the intent of recording instrument flight time is to ensure currency or experience to qualify for or maintain the relevant instrument flying rating. Flying in VMC, with the autopilot engaged and reading a book does not add to that experience and, in my mind, does not fulfil the requirements.

JAR-FCL 1.080(b)(4)(5) “Recording of flight time”, states:

A pilot may log as instrument flight time only that time during which he operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments, under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions.

Please note the operative word, "conditions", not rules. VMC in IFR is NOT instrument flight conditions.
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