Logbook entries
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I asked same question about IFR and flight time in our respective JAA CAA.
Answer was, that if you fly according to IFR flight plan, then you must log IFR = flight time, and total time = block time. Landings as PF, PIC if you are nominated commander (and independent of PF/PM duties), as PICUS. PICUS only until fulfilling 250hrs PIC requrement for unfreezing ATPL.
Answer was, that if you fly according to IFR flight plan, then you must log IFR = flight time, and total time = block time. Landings as PF, PIC if you are nominated commander (and independent of PF/PM duties), as PICUS. PICUS only until fulfilling 250hrs PIC requrement for unfreezing ATPL.
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If you refer to the post by Pontius you will note that he has taken the trouble to quote:
"JAR-FCL 1.080(b)(4)(5) “Recording of flight time”, states:
A pilot may log as instrument flight time only that time during which he operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments, under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions."
Flight by the use of instruments in IMC or simulated IMC is totaly different than flying by IFR, by all means record all your time under IFR but do not think that this contributes to instrument flight time. IFR is obeying rules, flight by the use of instruments in IMC, or simulated IMC, is a skill that needs to be practiced and maintained, anybody that confuses the two obviously does not quite understand that.
"JAR-FCL 1.080(b)(4)(5) “Recording of flight time”, states:
A pilot may log as instrument flight time only that time during which he operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments, under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions."
Flight by the use of instruments in IMC or simulated IMC is totaly different than flying by IFR, by all means record all your time under IFR but do not think that this contributes to instrument flight time. IFR is obeying rules, flight by the use of instruments in IMC, or simulated IMC, is a skill that needs to be practiced and maintained, anybody that confuses the two obviously does not quite understand that.
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It's obvious from the language that you both choose to use and the way that you put your points across, that you're both absolutely fixed in your opinion and no one, even someone "with more than one brain cell" is ever going to convince you otherwise. That's just fine by me, you make some valid points with which I agree, and I disagree with you on others, but hey, I'm not going to lose any sleep over the issue.
I said in an earlier post that "I'm one of those who logs all IFR time as instrument time (when PF), but according to NuName's post I'm possibly wrong in doing so." Well you've actually convinced me to maintain what I've done before.
In reply to the JAR-FCL reference that was mentioned, if you have a glimpse at General Requirements in Section 2 Subpart A - Amdt 4, on pages 28-35 there is an example JAA log book. With the exception of the 'Remarks' column where instrument flight time can be recorded "as part of training for a licence or rating", where in that logbook does one record instrument flight time? In the explanatory notes it states that column 9 (Operational Condition Time) is used to "enter flight time undertaken at night or under instrument flight rules if applicable."
In answer to NuName's point about eating, going to the loo or making a note of whether he is awake or not, the same can point can be made in regard to IMC, do I make a note every time I enter and leave a cloud, then total the time up at the end of the flight to record as instrument flight time? If I "watch the autopilot follow the magenta line" and we enter cloud for a minute or so, do I record a minute of instrument flight time?
It would be interesting to hear what you've both actually logged as instrument flight time during recent flights.
I said in an earlier post that "I'm one of those who logs all IFR time as instrument time (when PF), but according to NuName's post I'm possibly wrong in doing so." Well you've actually convinced me to maintain what I've done before.
In reply to the JAR-FCL reference that was mentioned, if you have a glimpse at General Requirements in Section 2 Subpart A - Amdt 4, on pages 28-35 there is an example JAA log book. With the exception of the 'Remarks' column where instrument flight time can be recorded "as part of training for a licence or rating", where in that logbook does one record instrument flight time? In the explanatory notes it states that column 9 (Operational Condition Time) is used to "enter flight time undertaken at night or under instrument flight rules if applicable."
In answer to NuName's point about eating, going to the loo or making a note of whether he is awake or not, the same can point can be made in regard to IMC, do I make a note every time I enter and leave a cloud, then total the time up at the end of the flight to record as instrument flight time? If I "watch the autopilot follow the magenta line" and we enter cloud for a minute or so, do I record a minute of instrument flight time?
It would be interesting to hear what you've both actually logged as instrument flight time during recent flights.
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My language was not intended to be offensive and I sincerely hope it wasn't. Let me explain myself a little more. The whole point of logging instrument flight time is to indicate ones experience in manipulating an aircraft using instruments alone with no visual references. Just like logging total time and time on type. If a person was to log all IFR time as instrument FLIGHT time, especially in a two crew operation, it gives no indication whatsoever of that persons expected capabilities. In fact, they have diluted it to an extent that it is no longer of any real value. Nobody who really needs to know is going to accept that, for example, a 5,000 hour pilot who has 4,500 hours of instrument time. In answer to your question I have 8,013 TT, 6,455 PIC, 5,814 Jet, 736 total instrument time and 599 actual instrument time. Nobody needs or wants to know how many hours I have spent in upper airspace drinking coffe, chatting to the boss, trying to undestand ATC or all the other things that one does on a long flight. I once had an equipment failure on the approach to Biggin Hill at the end of a long night flight, it took me by surprise, I was very stressed but completed the go around manouver successfully only due to the previous instrument FLYING experience I had gained in the past, and I have to admit, it wasn't pretty but it was safe. I can understand that some pilots may like to see big numbers under instrument flight time, but, REALLY!
You go ahead and log your time as you did before, nothing wrong with that, but, I do hope you are keeping a record of the time you have actually flown an aircraft using instruments alone, in the real sense.
You go ahead and log your time as you did before, nothing wrong with that, but, I do hope you are keeping a record of the time you have actually flown an aircraft using instruments alone, in the real sense.
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NuName - I respect and applaud the value that you attach to your instrument experience, and like you I don't agree with the fact, as pointed out in an earlier post, that both pilots can log the instrument time gained on a single flight.
Logging instrument flight in the way that I do only amounts to one quarter of my total time, a little more than using your method yes, but certainly not big numbers.
That's all from me on this subject, I think the OP has his answer by now.
Logging instrument flight in the way that I do only amounts to one quarter of my total time, a little more than using your method yes, but certainly not big numbers.
That's all from me on this subject, I think the OP has his answer by now.
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Under JAR it is pretty simple. You may log IMC time at your leasure, but nobody is really interested as that is not a requirement under JAR. It has to be logged in the remarks column (JAR FCL 1.080 (b) (4) (v)).
You have to log operational conditions, one of them is flying under IFR rules (JAR FCL 1.080 (b) (5)). That is a requirement and has to be done. For those of us flying IFR only that means that IFR time is the same as total time. For others that fly mixed operations that may differ.
PICUS may be logged if the method of supervision is acceptable to the authority (JAR FCL 1.080 (c) (5)), it has to be countersigned by the pilot in command (JAR FCL 1.080 (c) (1) (v)). This is a statement that is open to debate. The uk has guidelines in its LASORS that allow every line captain to supervise a PICUS flight, in many other european countries that is not possible and PICUS can only be flown in an especially approved program, usually during the upgrading process.
You have to log operational conditions, one of them is flying under IFR rules (JAR FCL 1.080 (b) (5)). That is a requirement and has to be done. For those of us flying IFR only that means that IFR time is the same as total time. For others that fly mixed operations that may differ.
PICUS may be logged if the method of supervision is acceptable to the authority (JAR FCL 1.080 (c) (5)), it has to be countersigned by the pilot in command (JAR FCL 1.080 (c) (1) (v)). This is a statement that is open to debate. The uk has guidelines in its LASORS that allow every line captain to supervise a PICUS flight, in many other european countries that is not possible and PICUS can only be flown in an especially approved program, usually during the upgrading process.
Last edited by Denti; 31st Jan 2012 at 09:36.
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Hello, I will try to make this brief as its becoming a bit boring. I don't know if you fly or not but to say "You may log IMC time at your leasure, but nobody is really interested" could not be further from the truth. I looked up (JAR FCL 1.080 (b) (5) (v)) out of interest, and, apart from saying that you may not log taxi time as instrument time (now there's a surprise) it only say's that they are waiting for EASA to clarify what constitutes instrument flight time. Please answer this: If a PPL with no ratings were to file and fly on a IFR flight plan in VMC, should he log that flight as instrument flight in his log and wish this time to be considered when trying to achieve an instrument rating?
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Actually, thanks for pointing that out. There is no point (v) in JAR FCL 1.080 (b) (5). It is of course point (b) (4) (v) which describes what may be logged into the remarks column. Operative word being "may". There is no requirement and everything logged in there is of no concern to licensing according to JAR FCL (which changes come april).
JAR FCL 1.080 (b) (5) just says:
Those conditions have to be logged. Which means every time you fly under IFR has to be logged. Every time flown in IMC may be logged (only in the remarks column), but is of no interest to any licensing requirements at the moment, and of course it is therefore not required to be logged (again, that may change april 2012).
A PPL that files an IFR flightplan without having a rating is outside the scope of legislation and regulation and may do whatever he pleases, it is illegal to begin with. If he has an instrument rating of course he has to log his flighttime according to JAR FCL as IFR time, again, that is not time in IMC, it is IFR time and JAR FCL does not deal with anything else. Instrument time (which again is not IMC time) should be logged during initial training for an IR rating though, however that can be done in the documentation of the approved FTO in which one works towards obtaining that rating. However instrument time is of no concern to renewal of said rating.
That is one of the big differences between JAR FCL and the american system where actual IMC time should be logged. That is simply not the case in europe.
JAR FCL 1.080 (b) (5) just says:
(5) Operational conditions:
(i) Night
(ii) IFR
(i) Night
(ii) IFR
A PPL that files an IFR flightplan without having a rating is outside the scope of legislation and regulation and may do whatever he pleases, it is illegal to begin with. If he has an instrument rating of course he has to log his flighttime according to JAR FCL as IFR time, again, that is not time in IMC, it is IFR time and JAR FCL does not deal with anything else. Instrument time (which again is not IMC time) should be logged during initial training for an IR rating though, however that can be done in the documentation of the approved FTO in which one works towards obtaining that rating. However instrument time is of no concern to renewal of said rating.
That is one of the big differences between JAR FCL and the american system where actual IMC time should be logged. That is simply not the case in europe.
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It is perfectly legal for a PPL to file and fly under IFR, they would have to remain within the privileges of their licence so that would mean maintaining VFR and outside controlled airspace, exactly the reason I asked the question, would you consider this to be flight controlled solely by the use of instruments and logged as such?
A PPL would only need a rating to enter IMC or controlled airspace, no rating required to fly according to instrument flight rules.
Also, being as the direct quote is:
How can fight in IMC be not logged as this is absolutely what the above describes. And the word controlling is used as opposed to operating.
A PPL would only need a rating to enter IMC or controlled airspace, no rating required to fly according to instrument flight rules.
Also, being as the direct quote is:
Instrument flight time:
Time during which a pilot is controlling an
aircraft in flight solely by reference to instruments.Time during which a pilot is controlling an
How can fight in IMC be not logged as this is absolutely what the above describes. And the word controlling is used as opposed to operating.
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In mainland europe it is not legal to file IFR without an IFR rating. That may differ in the UK or other nations but that is outside the scope of JAR FCL and everything else under european regulation, it is purely a national thing and may change considerably come april. One of the reasons is that IFR outside CAS (i.e. class G which exists only below 2500ft AGL in some places, below 1000ft AGL in most) is not allowed. The only exception is class F which may only contain one IFR flight at a time and is only activated for that sole purpose to provide higher VFR minima (5km vis, 1500m lateral spacing to clouds and 1000ft vertical spacing to clouds).
Your description of instrument flight time is correct and straight out of the definitions of JAR-FCL, however it is something that may only be "logged" in the remarks column and is of no regulatory interest. Operation of the aircraft according a certain set of rules however is of very much regulatory interest, hence the requirement to log IFR time.
Your description of instrument flight time is correct and straight out of the definitions of JAR-FCL, however it is something that may only be "logged" in the remarks column and is of no regulatory interest. Operation of the aircraft according a certain set of rules however is of very much regulatory interest, hence the requirement to log IFR time.
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Hi again Denti, you correctly guessed that I was refering to UK regs, and like you I do not know much about such things in other lands as I do not find myself in that situation, ever.
All I can say now is, if you are correct in what you are saying, and I have no other information at hand to prove you wrong, EASA will introduce a system that will remove any hope of assessing a pilots likely performance when FLYING an aircraft in inclement weather. For me, I still understand, and read,
to mean as I said before, and that can be the only intention of the statement, as for me, to log IFR flight when I am eating my lunch, taking a wee wee, chatting to the boss, reading the newspaper or playing solitair on my iPad, is time that should play no part in my record of experience other than total time. I hold UK & FAA licences and on the several occasions when I have had to state my various flight times there has never been any questions about it.
All I can say now is, if you are correct in what you are saying, and I have no other information at hand to prove you wrong, EASA will introduce a system that will remove any hope of assessing a pilots likely performance when FLYING an aircraft in inclement weather. For me, I still understand, and read,
Instrument flight time:
Time during which a pilot is controlling an
aircraft in flight solely by reference to instruments:Time during which a pilot is controlling an
to mean as I said before, and that can be the only intention of the statement, as for me, to log IFR flight when I am eating my lunch, taking a wee wee, chatting to the boss, reading the newspaper or playing solitair on my iPad, is time that should play no part in my record of experience other than total time. I hold UK & FAA licences and on the several occasions when I have had to state my various flight times there has never been any questions about it.
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Aye, from Appendix B to Section A LASOR it seems under national rules in the UK you have to log instrument time. However if you are using the privileges of a JAR license you also have to log IFR time. The latter is sadly under a heading "Recommended information", but alas it is explained that it should be logged for JAR licenses. Checking JAR-FCL 1.080 then explains that you have to log IFR time as operational condition and may log instrument time if you really want to. The thing that muddles some things up is that some seem to be of the opinion that instrument time is only possible in IMC, however that is not the case, it is time whenever you fly solely in reference to the instruments, which in my opinion is pretty much always when airborne in a jet, even in full VMC my flightpath is maintained solely in reference to instruments.
Flying under an uk issued license therefore requires you to log both, for the purpose of JAR-FCL and most probably the coming EASA rules only IFR-time is required. By the way, i have known a CAA that argued one can only log instrument time when flying manually as the pilot needs to manipulate the controls himself to be in full control of the aircraft with the sole reference to instruments. Quite sad really, but they do have a point.
Flying under an uk issued license therefore requires you to log both, for the purpose of JAR-FCL and most probably the coming EASA rules only IFR-time is required. By the way, i have known a CAA that argued one can only log instrument time when flying manually as the pilot needs to manipulate the controls himself to be in full control of the aircraft with the sole reference to instruments. Quite sad really, but they do have a point.
