Does being white and middleclass an advantage in Corporate aviation?

[Sepp]

The short answer to your question is: "No".

Why? Because as a hirer, I am (as are my peers) certifying that you will likely not kill the poor saps that are sitting behind you. I care little (as, I suspect, do my peers) what might be the colour of your skin or what is between you legs, or that/those of your God/Godess/combination thereof, or that of your sexual partner - or again combination thereof.

So, what does interest me? Well:

Can you fly the tube? *

Do you know how to deal with pax without pissing them Royally off (or off Royally - some of them are so picky...)? *

Do I think you'll be someone with whom I can spend a day or two down-route? *

Are you likely to (as Dr. Who nicely put it on Sat.) "poke things with a stick"... *

---

Ask youself, honestly: "Which am I?". Then apply, and best of luck! Regarding hiring those one knows: I have taken a few punts on unknowns - some worked (one or two very well indeed), some didn't. I know a few peeps who will never want for a job, if I have a say - damned fine drivers that they are - and at least two peole that I will spend every effort keeping out of CAT aeroplanes as long as I draw breath, 'lest they kill someone. Fxck knows how they got a licence, but it wasn't through skill.

---

* the above are not necessarily in an order that will be familiar to some, and are not necessarily good or bad ...)

[SLIPANDSKID]

I think that you SHOULD be able to hire anybody you want, to work in your company. Whats that old saying " You don't want to go to war, with a w@^ker on you wing".

So if you get a recommend of a good pilot from someone you respect within your company, then they go to the top of the list. I say this as somebody who would one day like to fly corporate and doesn't know anybody in the business.

Forced quotas, Affirmative action!? Complete garbage! They are mathematically unfair.

Take Country A) 80% white, 10% black, 5% asian, 5% other

Company A) has 20 pilot jobs.

The quota says that there must be 2 jobs for black guys 1 for asian and 1 for "other"

This means that black, asian and other guy get a shot at all 20 jobs. White guy only at 16 jobs?!?!

Now if the quota also guarantees minimum 80% for the white then my point is invalid. People with more knowledge of this maybe able to correct me.

However;

Also if it is separated like this you can say in a way you are competing only against your section of the quota. Now if your race/culture is not as interested in becoming a pilot, for whatever reason, then it automatically becomes easier for people of that race to get the job.

If we enforced a quota like this using American demographics in the NBA for example, some people would get fairly pissy very quickly (and the standard of the basketball we watched would drop, lol)

THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO SHOULD BE HIRED TO BE A PILOT (OR ANY OTHER JOB) ARE THE BEST APPLICANTS FOR THE JOB. REGARDLESS OF RACE OR SEX.

S&S

[Superpilot]

parisjet, you've already said that you find the corporate aviation world to be tight and insular. I and most others would agree with that. In fact, this is true for much more outside the corporate world. It's simple really...

As most European corporate aviation firms are owned by mostly middle classed white people, it makes sense that they will naturally associate themselves with other middle class white folk in the business. As middle class white folk normally know mostly other middle class white folk, these middle class white folk would be in line for more opportunities. Now we have a fully established pilot base who is mostly middle class and white. Being a tight and insular industry (i.e. one which does not put applications out to the public), is it therefore any wonder that Joe Bloggs (who is white and middle class) gets the job through personal recommendation?

[potatowings]

I very rarely get offended by posts on here, but somehow I am close right now.

Corporate aviation is absolutely based on who you know, and for a very good reason as has been pointed out.

If my friend recommends me for a job over an unknown with the same experience and qualifications, of course I should get it. It's called networking and is relevant in all industries.

Race has no issues. I have worked with people of many different backgrounds in my career. White Europeans, black Europeans, Indians, Pakistani, Muslim, Christian, Sikh, Jewish, Hindu etc....

Never has any company I have worked for ever not looked at a CV presented to them based on colour or creed. They have however turned down candidates of a non white ethnic origin, just as they have white pilots. They have turned down female pilots just as they have male pilots. They have also hired ethnic minorities and also hired females.

Companies make money and therefore hire the best candidate for the job. Present them the best CV with the best contacts and references for the job you want and you will get it.

Spend your time focusing on building your CV rather than accusing others of being biased.

They are biased. They are biased towards the best candidates!

[Pugilistic Animus]

Yeah everyone's a little Yellow in the air...they'll want the best

[fade to grey]

PJ,
I should save your effort for the airlines.At present the airlines are hard to get into, then corporate is very very hard.

I did a year on a citation at the start of my career, great experience but you really need a personality that can be ultra flexible to the demands of the VIP style passenger - that would be a very important factor.

68 airfields in one year - those were the days !!

[jez d]

Does being white and middleclass an advantage in Corporate aviation?

I bet grammer does. Maybe not though in Zimbabwe.

NuName, people in glass houses... etc.

[watchyourairspeed]

it's called Ignorance

PJ

Took me a bit to drop a line on your useless thread. Could not go unnoticed. The problem rests with you. And YOU only (I am referring to within) . YOU can't see beyond your skin colour.

Get a new life.

WYA

[NuName]

Yes jez d, you are of course are quite correct, however, I have plenty of windowlene and no chip on my shoulder, the stones were thrown by another party.

[jez d]

NuName, pendantic mode now switched to 'off'.

Well, maybe not just yet...

It never ceases to amaze me just how illiterate the average jet jockey wannabe is these days (no reference to your good self).

Stream-of-consciousness writing appears to be the norm on pprune. If their CVs are written to a similar standard then it's no wonder they're struggling to find employment, in or out of a recession.

Maybe I'm just too old fashioned (or just too old), but poor grammar and atrocious spelling, for me, are the hallmarks of a lazy mind (genuine dyslexics excepted) that has no place in the cockpit. TXT SPK is 4 mobiles, not for those with access to a keyboard. (Having said that, I suppose I should concede the point that many of these posts are sent via iphones and the like? I'll shall climb back into my box now.)

Regards, jez

[Biggles78]

Many years ago in a little country down under, the national domestic carrier interviewed 2 pilots for a job. One had 2,000 hours, 1,000+ multi, I/R (flew for a small regional carrier) and the other had a CPL, I/R and 300 hours on a C172.

The 2,000 hour pilot was told he didn't have enough time and told to go and get some more time up whereas the C172 pilot was hired.

The reason, the C172 guy fit into their culture whereas the other guy did not and most likely would never get a job with them. It was nothing to do with race or experience, just who would best fit into their company structure the best.

It sucks, but that's life.

[Pugilistic Animus]

Guys/Gals...I don't think he was being racist; he asked a question, I'm sure his experiences on the ground led to his conclusions...folks wanna know...

[parisjet]

Pugilistic Animus:

I am glad you understand that I am not a racist, and nor was I calling anyone a racist. I would like to apologise for the way my question came across, it should have been phrased carefully.

[keithskye]

Johns7022 is absolutely spot on.

Corporate aviation hiring practices -

1- The boss wants someone cheap, and if he has the kind of business where everyone he has in his company is cheap labor, I'll put money on it that he will be shopping price in his flight dept. The flight depts hire kids, make them pay for types, training contracts ect....

2- The boss hires people he likes. If he is the kind of guy that hires buddies and pals first over performance, then your likely to get the job offered is someone there knows you, likes you, can play golf, you have something in common with this guy, etc ect.. This the classic flight dept where everyone wonders how 'Joe' got this job flying a GIV with 1500 hours of flight time, oh yeah...he's a golf buddy....

3- The boss hires on performance - Very rare, but he actualy doesn't want to die in a plane crash...he probably won't pay for the best, but he will hire a guy to get the job done...most boss's have a number, so they will hire the right guy, but they will try to get him cheap, and someone that they like.. He get's a guy everyone universaly knows is decent...

4- The boss hires the best - Very rare...but when Donald Trump called Continental to get a guy to fly his 727, he hired away the most senior capt...if only most billionares were like him...

I actually was not invited back for a final interview with a very high paying G-V flight department because when I was asked to join the CEO, Chief Pilot and Director of Aviation for a round of golf, I had to pass because I did not play nor did I have any interest in playing. Both of the other candidates, who did go on and play golf with the management, got on with them. Many of you would be offended by this, but I was not, and still am not, as it became very obvious to me that my personality would not "click" with theirs and that I was just saving us all some aggravation in the future.

If your low time, an idiot, not very commited to your profession, you should go airline, or try to get a job where the hiring practice is more about who you know, go along, get along, team player kinda of social networking stuff..

Actually, you should pursue a career in some other industry!

If your a hotshot, you'll probably get a job, but depending on the type of boss you get, will depend on how you get paid...most of them want someone decent but don't want to pay for it....

True, but only if you network well enough to get the chance to prove that you're a "hotshot", and then also have the proper attitude, work ethic, and other character and personality traits that will endear you to the boss, your chief pilot/Captain and everyone else you have to work with in the flight department!

My current boss used to fit the profile described in #1 above, but now I'd say he definitely fits profile #3! I am in the process of hiring a Captain to replace my F/O in our 604, and it is now down to negotiating his contract (as well as mine)!

As I know many of you would be keen to learn the details, I'll go ahead and share them with you, as much as I can, anyway.

The F/O leaving: single (not married), hired with CPL, no type ratings, 3,300 hours, with a background flying Navajos early on and then a small mix of hours in a variety of turboprops, then about a year or so flying the ERJ-170/190. I took a chance on him based on those qualifications, plus his personality (good work ethic, respectful in all ways, well-spoken, well-dressed, good sense of humor and all-around nice guy). Sadly, although I liked him a lot and so did the boss, after two years flying with us, things were not working out quite as planned (I had hoped to have him flying as a Captain by now). We spent a LOT of money on training (we paid for his type rating at Flight Safety, where he also got his ATPL in the process) and the salary was reasonable. Oh, BTW, his ethnic background - Eastern European origin and raised in the Middle East, and multi-lingual.

The new pilot (Captain) coming onboard, if he gets a contract he can live with: married, no kids, ATPL, HS-125, DA-50, 7,900 hours of logged professional flying (he flies his own personal airplanes quite a lot, of which he owns two, and never logs any of it), background of strictly corporate flying, Chief Pilot of two flight departments, flying the Hawker 800 series and the Falcon 50. Big note here - he has only had two jobs (both as Chief Pilot) over the last 15 years - how many of us can say that in the corp. bizjet world? He is not typed in our aircraft but will be paying for his own rating. If he accepts the contract, then likely we'll finance the rating for him out of payroll deduction, but he's prepared to do it on his own if need be.

Myself? 14,000 hours, ATPL, B-737, CL-600, CL-604, G-1159 (Gulfstream II and III) and G-IV type ratings. I worked my buns off to get my first 500 hours, a CPL, Multi and IR, and then got a job with a VFR only operation flying single engine airplanes around. After I'd got 1200 hours, I flew light twins (single pilot IFR) for several years until I got 3500 hours (earning my ATPL with 2,000 hours in a Navajo), before going on to a regional turboprop carrier, where I flew for a couple of years (very heavy IFR - actual IMC - flying). I then realized that airline flying was not my cup of tea and managed to network enough (banged on a huge number of doors - in person!) that I finally got that first corp job flying in the right seat of a Lear 35. That job also included doing all the Jepps, washing and waxing the aircraft every week, and mopping and polishing the hangar floor every week as well! I was happy to do that.

After accumulating about 5,500 hours time, I finally got my shot at a Captain's seat in a Challenger, but I had to pay for my type rating first! I made the commitment, flew the airplane a lot, and over time developed a reputation for being a very good stick with very strong instrument skills and a knack for minimizing maintenance and direct operating costs. My reputation in the Challenger helped me break into the Gulfstream ranks, where my next two employers happily paid for my type ratings. I flew the G-II, G-IISP, G-IIB, G-III (DC and AC), and the G-IV and G-IVSP. While flying those airplanes, I managed to earn positions as Senior Captain, company instructor and also Director of Operations and Chief Pilot. Two years ago, I left flying the G-IV to take the position I have now, Chief Pilot and Captain on a Challenger 604. Today, I have over 8,000 hours of command time spread between the Challenger and Gulfstream series of airplanes, with a great deal of over-water, international flying, as well as a good deal of management experience.

With my background, do you think it would be easy for me to get a job today if I were looking? Sadly, no. I have "tested" the waters on several job openings posted on various sites these past few months, just to see what might be had, and I have not been offered a single job, no matter how qualified I am for them. Two companies were interested enough to take the time to actually write me and let me know that I was not as qualified as some of the candidates they were interviewing. I am sharing this with all of you so that you know that it really is that competitive out there.

As for the orginal question posted here, I'll respond as follows:

There are many reasons for the demographic mix of pilots you see out there, and they include cultural as well as financial factors. I find it interesting that the cultural aspect has not been brought up, but the fact is, if certain types of technologically and financially challenging endeavors (playing with cars, airplanes, etc.) are not part of one's every-day culture, and people are not exposed to those kinds of things as a child, it is considerably less likely to find young men and women with an interest in Aviation at an early enough age to make the commitment and take the necessary steps to pursue a career in this field, which as we've all seen is very competitive to begin with. I have seen this factor in every activity you can think of which demands a certain level of financial investment as well as technical skill.

I know that in America, for instance, growing up as a kid, I was always exposed to, and in fact encouraged to have an interest in, airplanes, boats and cars. I was flying model rockets and airplanes that I built from kits, when I was only 12 years old (and I earned the money for that all on my own by doing yardwork and other odd jobs for people throughout my neighborhood). My parents did not contribute one penny to my hobbies, but they did take me to airshows and to car shows, and I managed to sneak off to to the coast once in awhile to see sailing regattas and the like. I left home when I turned 18, and I paid for my university education and I also paid for every penny of my flight training, by working many different jobs at the same time while going to school and learning to fly and earn that first 500 hours of flight time.

It's never been easy, not by a long shot, and I for one have no sympathy for the young ones here who seem to think that they are owed a job or certain benefits or salary when they have little to offer really. Work 3 or 4 jobs all at once and pay for all of your schooling, flight training and at least one type rating in a jet, and THEN come and talk to me about how unfair the job market is.

I mentored a young man over the past several years who learned to fly at Biggin Hill initially, earning his UK PPL there. He then went on to America, where he earned his FAA CPL, CFI, CFII, and ATPL, while working as flight instructor and going to school at a local Univ on a student visa. He then came back to the UK when his visa ran out and started networking like crazy and finally, after nearly two years, managed to get on with a heavy jet carrier a couple of years ago. Today he is typed in several heavy jets and is flying all over the world and making a very comfortable salary. It took him over 15 years to achieve what he has. You can achieve what you want in this business, but except for the very lucky few, the only way to get there is by hard work, a great deal of networking, and a very good attitude, because potential employers do see that and do react to that. There are no shortcuts in this business.

I hadn't intended to go on like this, and I'm sorry if I got a bit carried away!

Best of luck to all of you that are looking!

[NuName]

keithskye

Bravo, I mean it, I worked my butt off to do this job, nobody said it would be easy, but, everyone said, if it was, everyone would do it.

[4HolerPoler]

Great post Keith - so nice to see someone who's worked their way up the ladders rather than bitching about their particular issue as to why they can't get on the first or second rung. Ours is a very tough industry to break into; networking and a good reputation are two of the key factors that will ensure your success. Skin color and social or cultural backgrounds have little to no impact and should not be seen as constraints or impediments on being successful.

4HP

[IgorMalo]

2 NuName: I'm agree.
2 parisjet original question: Yes it does. So what?

[keithskye]

To NuName and 4HP,

Thanks!

Keith

[Crosswind Limits]

Trust our friend from Russia to be so blunt!

[KirkyMS]

Simple Answer : no

I had the pleasure to fly with black guys, Ladies and a gay Pilot - from what i´ve seen it all depends on yourself, they had no Problems ...
If you look like an idiot or if you behave like an ape i´m pretty sure you´ll find a difference - but under normal circumstances it doesn´t make any problems to be NOT white and middleclass

Cheers