Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Biz Jets, Ag Flying, GA etc.
Reload this Page >

Logging IFR hours - is my thinking correct?

Biz Jets, Ag Flying, GA etc. The place for discussion of issues related to corporate, Ag and GA aviation. If you're a professional pilot and don't fly for the airlines then try here.

Logging IFR hours - is my thinking correct?

Old 5th Aug 2009, 11:08
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: LONDON
Posts: 225
Logging IFR hours - is my thinking correct?

Hi guys,

Wondering if I can throw a question out to you... looking for a second opinion really.

I'm currently para dropping and operate in the LTMA for most of the flight - Am I correct to assume that I can log the LTMA portion of the flight as P1 IFR?

My thinking is that whilst I am in VMC I am operating in Class A airspace which is IFR only and much of the time I fly mainly on instruments to set up the run in etc.
Wodka is offline  
Old 5th Aug 2009, 11:56
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 61
I'd say no, morally, if for no other reason.
loftustb is offline  
Old 5th Aug 2009, 12:09
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 20
Wodka,

Are you in reciept of an IFR clearence?

If so, I would say yes, you are flying IFR, IMC, VMC has nothing to do with it.

Agreed the 'instruments' time setting up for your run in is a bit much to log as IFR, I fly 'IFR' in that case many times at work, though I am still operating under VFR rules, with a few dispensations

You can cross class A airways VFR so perhaps the arguement for IFR only isnt as solid as it might be.

Its one of those things, what does your CP say?

Regards,

BRS
Better to remain... is offline  
Old 5th Aug 2009, 12:35
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: uk
Posts: 672
This crops up regularly.

Do not confuse flight under Instrument Flight Rules (sic. IFR) with flight under Instrument Met. Conditions (sic. IMC) If you look at the conditions for logging "instrument time" at the beginning of your CAA logbook it says this is time when you manipulate the controls solely without outside reference ie. when you are in cloud.

It doesn`t say much about your experience if you are to log visual time as instrument time whilst you flog about VMC in controlled airspace!!

It is only really relevant whilst under training to fly on instruments hence the IF hours requirements for licence upgrades.
Meikleour is online now  
Old 5th Aug 2009, 12:38
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Near Stuttgart, Germany
Posts: 914
Hello!

I'd say no, morally, if for no other reason.
For what reason would you want to log these hours anyway? To impress employers? I used to be operations postholder for over ten years in the GA industry. This is how it goes: You look at the CV of a jobseeker. You look a the listing of his flying hours. You try to match the two. 500 hours total time. 300 hours aerial work (paradropping, sailplane towing, banner towing, whatever). 300 hours IFR. Dosen't fit together, the guy must be a cheater, the application goes straight into the dustbin. Name goes to the black list. No second chance.

Greetings, Max
what next is online now  
Old 5th Aug 2009, 17:08
  #6 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: LONDON
Posts: 225
Thanks for your replies thus far.

Re clearances. We receive a clearance at the start of the day under an agreement from Swanwick where we are given a squark & frequency. Don't know if this counts as a clearance per say.

On some flights I am flying in IMC for some portion of the flight so I guess I can log this, but it seems the feeling on logging say 40% of each flight is a bit rich!

I certainly don't want to claim for something incorrectly.

How did people who got into Air Taxi get the P1 IFR time that is often quoted as a minimum?
Wodka is offline  
Old 5th Aug 2009, 17:57
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 28
In the US it is when there is no reference to the horizon in IMC conditions is when you can log instrument time. If you log conservative you won't have any problems explaining in the interview.
garsr1 is offline  
Old 5th Aug 2009, 18:17
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 142
If the Rules state: Time when you manipulate the controls solely without outside reference ie. when you are in cloud.

Do airline pilots and others log P1 time when the autopilot is engaged. I have always logged actual IFR only when I actually fly, not manage, the aircraft therefore I know that my IFR time logged is accurate.
gordon field is offline  
Old 5th Aug 2009, 18:29
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Near Stuttgart, Germany
Posts: 914
Hello!

If you log conservative you won't have any problems explaining in the interview.
You won't get invited to the the interview in the first place, if there is anything to explain. And then, it is not the interview alone that gets you the job. You also need to show your flying skills. Either in an aeroplane or in a procedures trainer or simulator. And believe me, one can tell within five minutes if someone really has the instrument practice that he claims to have!

How did people who got into Air Taxi get the P1 IFR time that is often quoted as a minimum?
Mostly by cheating, but not in such an obvious may But seriously: This "P1 IFR time" is really only required for single-pilot operations. Many/most commercial companies operate with two pilots (at least under JAR/EU-OPS because the conditions for single-pilot instrument flying are difficult to meet and duty and rest times are severly restricted in single pilot operation). So the usual way is to get the necessary experience in the right hand seat!

Greetings, Max
what next is online now  
Old 5th Aug 2009, 18:42
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Near Stuttgart, Germany
Posts: 914
Hi!

Do airline pilots and others log P1 time when the autopilot is engaged.
Of course they do. If not, then some 20.000+ hours grey-haired airline veterans would have less than 100 hours in their logbooks (not even enough for their license renewal) ... especially those who fly long-haul.

I have always logged actual IFR only when I actually fly, not manage, the aircraft therefore I know that my IFR time logged is accurate.
Wow! And how do you do that? Start your stopwatch whenever you enter clouds and stop it, when you leave it? That's quite a job on a summer day with Cu clouds everywhere...

All pilots and instructors that I have ever encountered have logged as IFR time those flying hours that were flown with an IFR clearance. Because these are also recorded and documented with the relative ATC units in case of any doubt.

Greetings, Max
what next is online now  
Old 5th Aug 2009, 18:48
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 3,218
Re clearances. We receive a clearance at the start of the day under an agreement from Swanwick where we are given a squark & frequency. Don't know if this counts as a clearance per say.

On some flights I am flying in IMC for some portion of the flight so I guess I can log this, but it seems the feeling on logging say 40% of each flight is a bit rich!
Log instrument time for that time when you operate the aircraft by reference to instruments. Don't log it any other time. Whether you're on an IFR clearance or not...who cares? Instrument time and experience is about proficiency. The amount of time you spend operating by reference to instruments speaks somewhat to your actual instrument experience...whereas the time you spent on a clearance does not.

If you flew by instruments, log it as such. If you didn't, don't.
SNS3Guppy is offline  
Old 6th Aug 2009, 11:22
  #12 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: LONDON
Posts: 225
We spoke to Swanwick this morning and they said as far as they are concerned we are in receipt of an IFR clearance when operating in the TMA. The only difference being we get one for the day instead of a per flight basis.
Wodka is offline  
Old 6th Aug 2009, 19:59
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: From Despair To Nowhere
Posts: 130
What a load of codswallop is being written here.

IFR has nothing to do with the reference, it is a set of flight rules. At the beginning of my log book it says nothing about what reference is being used. It says "...under instrument flight rules...".

If I am flying a visual approach I am still usually operating under instrument flight rules. In the UK, if I so choose and comply with the flight rules, I operate under instrument flight rules, regardless of conditions, service received or even qualifications. A holder of a PPL with no attached ratings is entitled to decide that while flying in VMC he is flying under IFR if he is in class F or G airspace. A commercial flight in VMC outside controlled airspace will be operated IFR by most companies for safety. At night in the UK outside controlled airspace IFR is the only option.

In fact not only is Wodka entitled, both legally and morally, to log flight in class A airspace as being under IFR, he is legally required to do so. It is very obvious when he is in class A that he is flying under IFR as he has not been given a special VFR clearance. Special VFR clearances must specifically state 'special VFR', and are not usually available for airways and TMA.

'what next' has admitted that while recruiting he has thrown away CVs of applicants due to his own misunderstanding of the rules, as it is entirely possible that the candidate he describes logged his hours correctly. OK, 'what next' might not be impressed by time logged IFR while flying VMC in class G and not wish to employ the person, but to blacklist a candidate and call him a cheat would be libellous if he identified an individual.

loftusb takes to the high moral ground, but tumbles down the slope when he actually gives a technically illegal answer.

SN3 Guppy mistakes reference for rules. Instrument Flight Rules, boys, not Instrument Flight Reference. As for increasing proficiency due to reference being flown when the autopilot is flying the aircraft, albeit with reference to the instruments, that is just plain daft. Yet a multicrew pilot might log time under IFR while asleep.

Please people, can we stick to informed answers, not personal opinion of what the rules should be?

For clarity: you must log time IFR any time you are operating under IFR. If you have an IR you can operate under IFR in any airspace, under any conditions, receiving any level of service. In class A airspace you must do so, unless in receipt of a SVFR clearance (as far as I am aware only available in class A CTRs, e.g. Heathrow and Jersey). If you have no instrument qualification you can still log time IFR outside controlled airspace in VMC in UK airspace.

So yes, Wodka, you should log IFR.

P.S. The only case I know of where flight '...by sole reference to instruments...' is referred to in the rules is for experience needed to instruct instrument flight. In that case every hour by sole reference counts for four hours of IFR towards those requirements. This of course confirms that time can be logged IFR when not flying by sole reference to instruments.
12Watt Tim is offline  
Old 6th Aug 2009, 21:26
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: UK
Age: 37
Posts: 97
Good post 12Watt Tim. I agree with just about all of that.
Sleepybhudda is offline  
Old 6th Aug 2009, 23:39
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 3,218
What a load of codswallop is being written here...

...In the UK...
Ah, well, there you go.

In the real world we just log what we fly, instead of padding our logbooks to reflect what really isn't.

Your logbook serves as a legal document, ensuring that you've met minimum requirements for licensing and certification, ensuring that you've met recency of experience requirements, and providing a way to track a record of proficiency. Logging all of one's time spent operating under an IFR clearance is a wonderful way to rack up IFR hours, but IFR hours are meaningless, and don't at all speak to one's ability or even experience at flying instruments.

If one makes a 9 hour oceanic trip in daylight visual conditions, one makes that trip perhaps with a brief climb through clouds on departure, and a brief descent and approach through obscuring phenomena on arrival...thus gaining .3 or .4 of instrument time. I can see where you'd be logging 9 hours of instrument time because the flight is done on an IFR flight plan with an IFR clearance. Good for you.

Around here we just call that padding your logbook.

You'll find that typically about 10% of one's time is instrument time. Some a little higher, depending on their vocation...if you're seeing higher percentages because you're logging all your time spent on a clearance as instrument time...do what makes you feel best. Paint little airplanes on the side of your cockpit if it makes you feel like an ace, and wear a silk scarf. At the end of the day all that's significant is whether you can do the job, and logging every waking moment as instrument time won't make you one iota more proficient, nor prove you so. As you will.
SNS3Guppy is offline  
Old 7th Aug 2009, 04:43
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: United states of Europe
Posts: 310
Real World

SNS3Guppy:
Does that also mean that, in the real world, you only operate under IFR - Instrument Flight Rules - when you are in the clouds??

So in effect, RealWorld airliners crossing the atlantic fly VFR most of the time, as there are few clouds at cruising level.

Sounds convenient that your rules change according to operating conditions, does that happen outside aviation also?

The authorities I fly under now state that I must log flight time while operating under instrument flight rules as flight time under instrument flight rules. During this flight time under instrument flight rules, it is permitted to enter instrument flight CONDITIONS, which is a whole 'nother subject relating to meteorology.

There is a difference from the US and Europe, I have flown both places, the logging is different. There is no "padding" of anything when logging according to the regulations under which ones rating was issued.
PicMas is offline  
Old 7th Aug 2009, 06:01
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: I can see it from here.
Posts: 675
The logging of instrument flight time refers to flight by the sole reference to intruments, ie no outside reference. Flight by IFR does not refer to the means by which the aircraft was safely navigated but to the rules under which it was governed at the time. Being as I am usualy way above 30,000 feet, I can usualy expect 10 or maybe 20 minutes at each end, of instrument flying, in a 7-8 hour IFR flight. If it was acceptable to log all IFR flight as instrument flight time I would have thousands. What would be the point of logging hours and hours of autopilot flight in the clear blue sky, drinking coffee and chatting with the hostess, other pilot and the boss, and proudly calling it FLIGHT BY THE USE OF INSTRUMENTS
NuName is offline  
Old 7th Aug 2009, 07:57
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Near Stuttgart, Germany
Posts: 914
Good morning!

'what next' has admitted that while recruiting he has thrown away CVs of applicants due to his own misunderstanding of the rules, as it is entirely possible that the candidate he describes logged his hours correctly.
Since there is no class A airspace in 'my' part of the world and dropping parachutists is a strictly daylight VFR activity, dumping CVs of people who log instrument time for this activity does nobody any undue injustice, does it? There is some flying in class C and D airspace involved but neiter under instrument flying conditions nor instrument flying rules.
I can't remember ever having gotten an application from a British paradropper, so I have a clear conscience in this respect...

My sole intention was to warn 'Wodka' of logging anything that might cause the tiniest amount of suspiction with possible future employers. The company I fly for gets about 100 job applications per week (with maybe two or three positions per year to fill). There simply is no time or willingness to discuss unclear details with the candidates.

Greetings, Max
what next is online now  
Old 7th Aug 2009, 08:43
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: WAFFU
Posts: 6
IFR hours

WODKA - When you are operating in the LTMA flying in Class A airspace - (For example from EGKH, where the base of the TMA is 3500ft and you operate up to FL120 remaining within 1.5 of the centre of the airfield) you are definitely operating under Instrument Flight Rules.

You may not be IMC at the time, but you are flying in the same (Class A) airspace as other IFR traffic (Airliners etc). All clearances you are given by London are IFR clearances.

You should know this! in your BPA ops manual it states in black and white, to operate in class A airspace - the PIC needs a valid IR/Rating or IMC/rating with an exemption from the relevant authority, if required.

A simple way of testing this (If you are brave enough) is to try flying VFR in the LTMA and see what the London controllers tell you to do!

If you don't use "Instrument Flying Rules" whilst flying in the LTMA you will come un-stuck very quickly.

Safe flying

Blue Skies
Among The Living! is offline  
Old 7th Aug 2009, 09:08
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 3,218
Does that also mean that, in the real world, you only operate under IFR - Instrument Flight Rules - when you are in the clouds??

So in effect, RealWorld airliners crossing the atlantic fly VFR most of the time, as there are few clouds at cruising level.

Sounds convenient that your rules change according to operating conditions, does that happen outside aviation also?
I said nothing of the kind. Put words in your own mouth. Not mine.

No, when crossing the atlantic, as I correctly stated previously, one operates under IFR. This is really quite irrelevant to the logging of instrument time, however.

You log IFR time, vs. instrument experience. Got it. Do you log time spent operating VFR as VFR time? Would anybody care?

The regulations require you to log time spent operating on an instrument flight plan as instrument time, or allow you to do so? There's a difference. You're not suggesting that you're under a penalty for failing to log IFR time, when operating IFR, are you?
SNS3Guppy is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.