Piaggio Avante...!!??
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if you want to hang up there at FL380, pretending your a jet...good for you. Personaly I will fly whatever the boss want's me to fly, even if it doesn't make sense. That said, I would take a ragged out Citation ISP at 29000ft from SEA to MIA for an even million, before I would drop 5 mil on a Piaggio. At 355 kts it might be a horse race to Florida, but I keep 4 mil in my pocket...
Technically you obviously don't have any clue on how this aircraft performs and how it actually saves a lot of fuel compared to any jet. Just try to compare perfomances and DOC on a 1000 NM trip in ISA + 20 conditions (if these words does have a meaning for you).
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I already qualified the fuel argument between a Citation and Piaggio...the $4+ million saved buys alot of jet fuel...that said ISA +20...do you think the Piaggio will out perform a jet.....really...a turboprop will do better...then what? A ragged out Citation 1SP...?? The last one I flew trued at 357 kts at 29000ft, warm day...cost about 900k...less now given the ecomony. So at a 1000 lbs an hour fuel burn vs say 500 lbs/hr = $416 hr fuel savings in the turboprop ...at 200 hours a year...that's a fuel savings of $83000 over the year.. Now I have my $4 million dollars cash, you got your $83000...my $4 mil at 5% interest is $200,000 a year..let's recap for the folks out there...I fly a jet..have $4 million cash saved by buying this jet vs the Piaggio...I make $200,000 cash a year in interest...trumping the fuel savings in a turboprop...I have a jet that I can sell in minute...you got a 5 million dollar piece of italian art hanging around your neck, that nobody is really wants......no sir, it's pretty clear that you don't have a clue.
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There is a 2 years waiting list to get an Avanti II and people are ready to pay high premiums to get one.
Once again if you want to compare prices please refer to brand new prices. You will certainly not save 4 millions with your citation. Anyway, it's not because you would have saved some money that it would become wise to spend it in fuel while the avanti can save it. I say again, it's not the price that matters, it the cost of money. When you resell you see how much you lost in depreciation and interest. This is the point.
And to comment the hot weather operations you should first know that the avanti is flat rated up to 52 Celsius while your citation will start loosing thrust at 25...
Please keep in mind that you are addressing people who actually compared these aircraft with correct data, while you obviously never read anything about the avanti.
You are pathetic.
Once again if you want to compare prices please refer to brand new prices. You will certainly not save 4 millions with your citation. Anyway, it's not because you would have saved some money that it would become wise to spend it in fuel while the avanti can save it. I say again, it's not the price that matters, it the cost of money. When you resell you see how much you lost in depreciation and interest. This is the point.
And to comment the hot weather operations you should first know that the avanti is flat rated up to 52 Celsius while your citation will start loosing thrust at 25...
Please keep in mind that you are addressing people who actually compared these aircraft with correct data, while you obviously never read anything about the avanti.
You are pathetic.
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Wanna compare new to new? Stupid...only people with more money then brains, or people chasing writeoffs do that......but look, if your trying to sell someone 5 million dollar turboprops...good luck...a sucker is born every minute as the saying goes. The only selling point on the Piaggio that I can see, is someone that is cash rich, but cash flow poor. I see this in the PC12s...guys that have 2 mil to blow but can't afford to feed it down the road.
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The original poster sought insight from someone with knowledge and experience with the Avanti, to provide some insight into the airplane. What the poster got was you...with no experience, no knowledge, no insight, and who can only throw around highly technical terms like "sucker" and "stupid" and statements about a ride you took in a king air, once.
As for your "ragged out" citation...the return on the Avanti is considerably higher when it's time to sell.
Of course, what else could we expect from you when you talk about your vast turbojet experience, but have never heard of engine ice or oil return lines in a turbojet? Your credibility was long ago blown, your continued participation only makes you look worse and worse. Yet here you are. Have you nothing of substance to contribute?
As for your "ragged out" citation...the return on the Avanti is considerably higher when it's time to sell.
Of course, what else could we expect from you when you talk about your vast turbojet experience, but have never heard of engine ice or oil return lines in a turbojet? Your credibility was long ago blown, your continued participation only makes you look worse and worse. Yet here you are. Have you nothing of substance to contribute?
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Wanna compare new to new? Stupid...only people with more money then brains, or people chasing writeoffs do that......but look, if your trying to sell someone 5 million dollar turboprops...good luck...a sucker is born every minute as the saying goes. The only selling point on the Piaggio that I can see, is someone that is cash rich, but cash flow poor. I see this in the PC12s...guys that have 2 mil to blow but can't afford to feed it down the road.
Abeit that if you were to start your career again (if you ever did it at once...) you would sell your soul for a PC12 or a B200 (let alone a P180) but...if you like CJ's so much then keep riding those and forget the Italian catfish! I am a KA's driver and although I' ve not jet-exp I can tell from a mile away that you are here just to rubbish planes that you probably never flew. Being Italian myself, and seeking an opportunity on the Avanti I've followed the thread with interest but found NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING useful in your posts.
As SNS3 said the original poster was looking for an insight on Avanti's OPS & specs, not for gossip.
Move on, go flying! Isn't what your boss pays you for? Regardless of what you have to fly...of course!
DK
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I've followed the thread with interest but found NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING useful in your posts.
If you move across to the "Flying above FL410" thread, you can find absolutely nothing useful in Lookforshooter's posts over there too
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Why are you guys bagging on me? If any of you have $5-6 million to spend on a plane, I doubt it would be the Piaggio. I am not insulting the plane, I think it's time has come, just like the tragic starship was way ahead of it's time. Personaly I think it's a nice plane, that does more then any other turboprop out there, due to awesome design features that should be incorporated into most airplanes(canard/rear engine). It's just too expensive. For those that have never flown corporate jets AND corporate turboprops, much less managed and maintained them, much less actualy been sent out with a budget and a mission to accomplish carrying X amount of people, over X amount of distances and trips, over X amount of time...then I think your just talking for the sake of talking. Right now the Piaggio is overpriced for the efficiency return.
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Right now the Piaggio is overpriced for the efficiency return.
Why are you guys bagging on me?
You posted stupidly as ssg, as glockshuter, as tankdriver45, etc. You post stupidly now. A quick review of your postings shows that much, and anyone can see for themselves. You tend to enter into a conversation being as generic as you can without offering anything, because you have no idea what you're talking about. You misrepresent your experience and yourself, and in the past prior to your other bannings, have repeatedly lied and attempted to sew discontent and drag down the forums.
You're trying hard not to get banned this time...but you still manage to drag down nearly every thread in which you post. You're what's commonly referred to as a "troll."
Incidentally, I'm still tryin to figure out where one puts an "o-ring between lines." Is this one of those mysterious hack job items that's used under a B-nut on an AN fitting at a union, or have you come up with a new use for a packing of which we're not aware?
...that oil get's to go back to the engine in a return line...that was the line that failed at an O ring junction between two lines. ...and like all Turboprops...should one of those o rings between lines fail...
Why was "everyone bagging on you" again? Not just a little paranoid?
I suspect that so long as you spend your time trying to be something you're not, and do it so poorly and so obviously, you'll find yourself in the same boat.
If instead you took the time to present yourself as one interested in aviation with questions and a desire to learn, you might find things turn around. So long as you keep playing the expert of nothing and acting the troll, you'll find little sympathy among those who can clearly see you for whom and what you are.
Last edited by SNS3Guppy; 11th Oct 2008 at 06:04.
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Oh Guppy, here we go again..Avantair is a fractional ownership program, for the idiots that don't know the difference, you buy a PIECE of the plane, split up between so many planes, that the owner thinks he's getting a deal. Anyone flying more then a couple of hundred hours a year, starts looking for thier own plane. And again, when THEY have to spend 5-7 million, by themselves, versus a 1/20th share or whatever...then they will get educated really quick on the concept 'bang for the buck'. As far a return on your investment in a Piaggio, I can tell you this with some certainty...if you walk up to a biz owner and tell him your going to spend 6 million on a turboprop instead of that 2 million on a jet...well...your going to have to do some 'Enron Accounting' to get that one over. Point 2: On a Conquest I, PT6, there are oil return lines from the governer. Hard aluminum lines, that where they juncture, literaly have tiny little O rings. Look it up. When they fail, you dump oil. The fact is, I just have to keep in mind, this is an internet forum...literly I could be arguing with 14 years with Dad's library of aviation books. That said, Peace, No biggy. PM me if you dare and we can actualy do this over the phone. With regard to banning people...it's clear Guppy, that you feel the need to make this forum your personal area to pontificate about your credentials and experience. Your days of running to the moderator every time someone argues with you are over. Clearly. Get used to it. One another note...when presented with a question...I, like you, could go to my library, cut and paste in some marvelous snippet of info to dazzle the newbies with, but I would rather bring some experience to table, then some robotic answer that does little to help those actualy flying in the real world, under real conditions. So why do we argue incessently? I have nothing to prove, really, I don't. My credentials and experience are pretty solid, and I have spent plenty of time at the FBOs, Flightsafety, Simuflite, ect, slamming down people in person, that say stupid stuff. I feel the charlatans and dillatantes are killing aviation, and people. I find that when someone says something that sounds irrational but cloaked in just enough BS to make it palatable, this is a good place to correct that mistake. My argument isn't with you, I could give a rip...I am thinking of the thousands of lurkers that are reading these forums, forumulating opinions on aviation and thier practices. The fact is, it's about exposure and education, transparancy and accountability. Your more concerned about making buddies here and selling your reputation as some type of aviation authority, that I think your forget what your actualy talking about. I am trying to correct that mistake. Call it a very, very, part time, 5 minute a day hobby.
Last edited by Lookforshooter; 11th Oct 2008 at 17:42.
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My credentials and experience are pretty solid, and I have spent plenty of time at the FBOs, Flightsafety, Simuflite, ect, slamming down people in person, that say stupid stuff. I feel the charlatans and dillatantes are killing aviation, and people.
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Well I think the OP has had as much useful information out of this thread as he is likely to get.
Chapter 16, Rule 8 (b) of PPRuNe Law states that when the moderator starts to lose the will to live when reading a thread it's time for the padlock.
Duck.
Chapter 16, Rule 8 (b) of PPRuNe Law states that when the moderator starts to lose the will to live when reading a thread it's time for the padlock.
Duck.
