Falcon 200 info
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Falcon 200 info
Hi All,
Just after some info on the Flacon 200.
Operation costs, (maint, running......)
Reliability,
Pros and cons to operating one.
All help and advice is appreciated.
Boat
Just after some info on the Flacon 200.
Operation costs, (maint, running......)
Reliability,
Pros and cons to operating one.
All help and advice is appreciated.
Boat
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If you haven't got it yet, seriously consider NOT getting one. The biggest problem with the aircraft is the engines. If it is on MSP you will be somewhat OK If not, you have major problems. The engine has be problemmatic from the start and has not improved that much. The only other aircraft with that engine is the USCG's Falcons'. And they are still having major problems with the engines. A good indication of that is the fact that the older DA20F's converted to TFE731's are asking and getting higher resale prices. That is something to be aware off.
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Having some flight time on those beasts. a couple of gotchas
The ATF3 is NOW a very reliable and good engine, the biggest problem been parts are scarse and MSP GOLD is very expensive.
Second, there is no simulator for it so everything goes into the real airplane.
The costs are the one of a old Falcon 50, without the help of the 3rd engine.
However the cost on the market today (around 3-4 mio USD) make them very attractive. But as you know in aviation you will never win, you are always trading...
ho yes do NOT get one with T/Rs they are a pain, except for tail wind starts (because the ATF3 does NOT like tailwind starts at All !!!!
But it is a kicker engine
you are starting it on N3..... a lot of fun !!
The ATF3 is NOW a very reliable and good engine, the biggest problem been parts are scarse and MSP GOLD is very expensive.
Second, there is no simulator for it so everything goes into the real airplane.
The costs are the one of a old Falcon 50, without the help of the 3rd engine.
However the cost on the market today (around 3-4 mio USD) make them very attractive. But as you know in aviation you will never win, you are always trading...
ho yes do NOT get one with T/Rs they are a pain, except for tail wind starts (because the ATF3 does NOT like tailwind starts at All !!!!
But it is a kicker engine
you are starting it on N3..... a lot of fun !!
Grandpa Aerotart
I have considerable experience on the DA200 including C&Ting.
They are a GREAT aeroplane.
Yes the MSP Gold on the ATF 3 is double what you'd pay for a TFE731 equiped mid sized jet...BUT the capital cost is 1/3rd that of say a Hawker 800XP/850 and the Falcon is close to twice the aeroplane.
The ATF 3 is also very fuel efficient.
The ATF 3 is very quiet.
The cabin size and external baggage compartment is huge compared to the Hawker...about twice the internal usable space not including the Falcon's rear bathroom/toilet.
The payload range out of a limiting strip leaves the 800XP for DEAD! MTOW out of 4500', straight to FL370/.80 and 60 minutes later F410/.80 for about 2400nm with 'IFR' reserves.(100nm alternate and 30 mins holding)
I never had any problems with the thrust reversers and in fact they are some of the most effective thrust reversers ever bolted onto an engine...we did have to replace a thrust reverser appron due corrosion at the C check (eye wateringly expensive) but it was still cheaper than operating one of Hawker's (ne Ratheon's) pieces of ****e.
Generally speaking systems wise the Falcon is a 'little big aeroplane' whereas the Lears/Citations etc are 'big little aeroplanes'. That is to say the systems are all like you would find in a Boeing...fuel/oil heat exchangers mean no fecking with Prist, proper glass winscreens means no fogging like in the Citations/Lears with their acrylic windscreens that melt if you are not careful with the defroster, room to swing a cat in the cockpit unlike the Lears.
DA200s are typically equiped with dual FMCs and 5 tube EFIS as standard and are RNP5 approved and RVSM approval is a formality...in fact they all would be by now..when RVSM came into Asia we got approval for ours and it consisted of new pitot tubes and ensuring the area around the nose was smooth...LR35s etc just left for parts of the world where it wasn't yet an ussue. Most LRs and Hawkers of a similar vintage are not and CANNOT be made compliant..and for those that can the cost is/was prohibitive.
All in all the Falcon 200 is a LOT more aeroplane than the competitors for approx 1/3rd that capital cost and slightly higher DOCs...about 30%.
Ballpark, and these figures are 4+ years old for a DA200 you'd be looking at;
Lease payments USD$40k/mth
DOCs USD$1250/hr.Probably at current fuel prices closer to USD$1600/hr.
Fixed costs like Insurance, hangarage. USD$100k/annum
Wages ?
In a cost comparison study we did between the DA200 and the LR 45 the overall cost/hour was within USD$20/hr...the Hawker 800XP was a LOT more.
And I haven't even touched on what a truly AWESOME aeroplane the DA200 is from a pilot's perspective
Here is the one I used to fly
They are a GREAT aeroplane.
Yes the MSP Gold on the ATF 3 is double what you'd pay for a TFE731 equiped mid sized jet...BUT the capital cost is 1/3rd that of say a Hawker 800XP/850 and the Falcon is close to twice the aeroplane.
The ATF 3 is also very fuel efficient.
The ATF 3 is very quiet.
The cabin size and external baggage compartment is huge compared to the Hawker...about twice the internal usable space not including the Falcon's rear bathroom/toilet.
The payload range out of a limiting strip leaves the 800XP for DEAD! MTOW out of 4500', straight to FL370/.80 and 60 minutes later F410/.80 for about 2400nm with 'IFR' reserves.(100nm alternate and 30 mins holding)
I never had any problems with the thrust reversers and in fact they are some of the most effective thrust reversers ever bolted onto an engine...we did have to replace a thrust reverser appron due corrosion at the C check (eye wateringly expensive) but it was still cheaper than operating one of Hawker's (ne Ratheon's) pieces of ****e.
Generally speaking systems wise the Falcon is a 'little big aeroplane' whereas the Lears/Citations etc are 'big little aeroplanes'. That is to say the systems are all like you would find in a Boeing...fuel/oil heat exchangers mean no fecking with Prist, proper glass winscreens means no fogging like in the Citations/Lears with their acrylic windscreens that melt if you are not careful with the defroster, room to swing a cat in the cockpit unlike the Lears.
DA200s are typically equiped with dual FMCs and 5 tube EFIS as standard and are RNP5 approved and RVSM approval is a formality...in fact they all would be by now..when RVSM came into Asia we got approval for ours and it consisted of new pitot tubes and ensuring the area around the nose was smooth...LR35s etc just left for parts of the world where it wasn't yet an ussue. Most LRs and Hawkers of a similar vintage are not and CANNOT be made compliant..and for those that can the cost is/was prohibitive.
All in all the Falcon 200 is a LOT more aeroplane than the competitors for approx 1/3rd that capital cost and slightly higher DOCs...about 30%.
Ballpark, and these figures are 4+ years old for a DA200 you'd be looking at;
Lease payments USD$40k/mth
DOCs USD$1250/hr.Probably at current fuel prices closer to USD$1600/hr.
Fixed costs like Insurance, hangarage. USD$100k/annum
Wages ?
In a cost comparison study we did between the DA200 and the LR 45 the overall cost/hour was within USD$20/hr...the Hawker 800XP was a LOT more.
And I haven't even touched on what a truly AWESOME aeroplane the DA200 is from a pilot's perspective
Here is the one I used to fly
Last edited by Chimbu chuckles; 3rd Sep 2006 at 14:21.
sigh ......a thing of beauty indeed.
Theres nothing quite as tragic as an ex-falcon pilot. I cry myself to sleep these days.
Chuckie - do you have any other photos?
Theres nothing quite as tragic as an ex-falcon pilot. I cry myself to sleep these days.
Chuckie - do you have any other photos?
Grandpa Aerotart
Yup...this one at Semerang.
Got your PM....maski wori...what doesn't kill you makes you stronger
Chuck.
Edit: hey CL! You think the ATF 3 is a kicker to operate you wanna try teaching someone how it works in a ground school
Got your PM....maski wori...what doesn't kill you makes you stronger
Chuck.
Edit: hey CL! You think the ATF 3 is a kicker to operate you wanna try teaching someone how it works in a ground school
Last edited by Chimbu chuckles; 4th Sep 2006 at 09:27.
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Well I gave up , but on line training I use to tell people (especially the CF700 old guy) 60 % stabilised, 80% stabilised Full power and ignore red light (or amber) LoL For start....well no tail wind at all...or jump on the wing and stop the fan or you will see a lot of pumping and white smoke around you
Then for the basic start on N3 ... well this is it !! enjoy the ATF3 !
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Chuckles,
I understand that you used to fly the DA200 on international aeromedical operations. A quick question if I may.
How were you able to load stretcher patients? The airstair door does not appear to be wide enough or did you have the freight door conversion that I have seen on some US "on time" freighters?
I understand that you used to fly the DA200 on international aeromedical operations. A quick question if I may.
How were you able to load stretcher patients? The airstair door does not appear to be wide enough or did you have the freight door conversion that I have seen on some US "on time" freighters?
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VH-ECG
VH-ECG, previously operating as N1847B.
had a slide-in/out equipment good for loading 200 pounder patients on stretcher.
door was big enough, after loading you just dismantle the heavy equipment store them at the aft cargo compartment.
very hard work.
had a slide-in/out equipment good for loading 200 pounder patients on stretcher.
door was big enough, after loading you just dismantle the heavy equipment store them at the aft cargo compartment.
very hard work.
Grandpa Aerotart
It wasn't that hard.
But it did take degree of teamwork...we never dropped a patient
Did I hear a rumor that ECG was back in Singapore?
Someone I know saw an advert for Falcon 200 drivers for a Sin based op.
But it did take degree of teamwork...we never dropped a patient
Did I hear a rumor that ECG was back in Singapore?
Someone I know saw an advert for Falcon 200 drivers for a Sin based op.
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Somewhere in the distant past, I seem to remember that to start the ATF3 in a tailwind scenario, there was a way to deploy the right TR to effectively block the tailwind, then motor the right engine and when all the shafts were turning then right way, reset the TR breaker to stow it and introduce the fuel in to the engine. When it was stabilised, we would use that engine to turn the aircraft into wind and start the left engine. Oh yes, on quick turnrounds we would have to climb on the wing and rotate the fan 180 degrees because of shaft bending. Happy days ....
