small jet down in London
Wonder why with 8 fire engines and 40 firemen, it still took 3 hours to contain the Blaze and access the wreckage?
How effiecient was the emergency response?
How effiecient was the emergency response?
N
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Useful to who? I'm sure the AAIB have a coach-load of engineers, scientists and pilots with detailed knowedge etc. available, including people from BA, Boeing and Rolls Royce.
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I cant speak for what the LFB do these days, but when I was a fireman in London 10 years ago, an aircraft accident off airfield would attract a standard attendance of at least 4-6 pumping appliances, hoselayers, rescue tenders, etc etc, not counting all the various specialist vehicles such as control unit, photographer and senior officers.
Ask the Emergency services......
How effiecient was the emergency response?
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Maybe now the CAA will look at making CVR's and a simplified FDR mandatory on all Public Transport aircraft including smaller business jets - regardless of weight. An FDR would be especially useful in the case of this accident to determine the exact chronological order of the causes and effects of the engine vibration, rather than just the evidence available at the scene of the accident.
IŽd think that the AAIB has a lot of pointers already (eng vibs)...
Given the lack of facts and despite the poor reporting of the details of the accident it is heartening that both public and media describe the actions of the pilot as heroic, in some cases with banner headlines.
Mickjoebill
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Someone mentioned the Citation crash in Oklahoma City (KPWA) earlier this month. The indications are pretty strong that was a birdstrike right after takeoff. That aeroplane had a CVR but it wasn't operating.
The similarities I was alluding to was the facts that both happened shortly after takeoff, some type of engine problems and a resulting loss of control of the aircraft, ending with a nearly vertical impact accident.
Jet aircraft, even 30+ year old ones do not just fall out of the sky, bird strikes or not.
One difference between the two accidents is that with the London accident there was time for the crew to call a Mayday. There was no such call from the Oklahoma City accident crew.
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I really wish the media would get the priorities straight (well I guess they have from the point of view of selling a headline.) The latest babble from the Sky News website:
"If the plane that crashed into a house in Kent had hit just one hour earlier, three more lives could have been taken."
All fair enough and all that, but that kind of thing really doesn't need to be posted as a "story".
It's stated that the passengers were flying to France for a track session.
"If the plane that crashed into a house in Kent had hit just one hour earlier, three more lives could have been taken."
All fair enough and all that, but that kind of thing really doesn't need to be posted as a "story".
It's stated that the passengers were flying to France for a track session.
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I cant speak for what the LFB do these days, but when I was a fireman in London 10 years ago, an aircraft accident off airfield would attract a standard attendance of at least 4-6 pumping appliances, hoselayers, rescue tenders, etc etc, not counting all the various specialist vehicles such as control unit, photographer and senior officers.
Quote:
How effiecient was the emergency response?
Ask the Emergency services......
Quote:
How effiecient was the emergency response?
Ask the Emergency services......
R.I.P all whom died, deepest regards to your family.
This is the second time i have had a plane crash so close to my house, Heathrow and then Biggin.
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This appears to show police on scene (evacuating ?) first and then what looks like an airport fire engine turning up. This looks to be the first fire appliance tackling the blaze. Ambulance looks to have arrived at the same time.
Assuming that was the biggin hill fire engine, it looks like they got there first, and the road route from the airport doesn't look straight/quick - http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&...-8&sa=N&tab=wl - and google maps reckons it's 5-6miles by road.
Without knowing where the nearest fire station is it's difficult to compare, and they might have deliberately let the airport appliance get there first (would have better capabilities in this situation than a standard red one).
I suspect that the 8 fire engines and 40 firemen were on scene for 3 hours damping down and making safe.
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not a firefighter, so stand to be corrected, but I have had to attend a number of fires and done some training for them
Their prime responsibility is the preservation of life nowadays so if they, after assessing, the incident feel there is no life at risk (some may think that harsh) they will withdraw for their own safety.
In the TV interviews last night the fire officer acknowledged that the airport equipment had dealt with the "fuel" fire, if you look on the aerial photos on Sky you can see the white of the foam. Most county brigades only carry a very limited amount of foam on their appliances.
Bear in mind that had they been spraying high pressure hoses on the wreckage the damage to any evidence could also have been crucial. Similarly the remains of the house, high pressure could have brought the walls down, possibly on a crucial bit of evidence
The helicopter views also showed a hose on a fixed monitor directed into the wrecked garage where the LPG cylinder probably was (these can take a few hours to cool)
Their prime responsibility is the preservation of life nowadays so if they, after assessing, the incident feel there is no life at risk (some may think that harsh) they will withdraw for their own safety.
In the TV interviews last night the fire officer acknowledged that the airport equipment had dealt with the "fuel" fire, if you look on the aerial photos on Sky you can see the white of the foam. Most county brigades only carry a very limited amount of foam on their appliances.
Bear in mind that had they been spraying high pressure hoses on the wreckage the damage to any evidence could also have been crucial. Similarly the remains of the house, high pressure could have brought the walls down, possibly on a crucial bit of evidence
The helicopter views also showed a hose on a fixed monitor directed into the wrecked garage where the LPG cylinder probably was (these can take a few hours to cool)
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BBC have profiles of the crash victims here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7322983.stm
Suggest any amendments or additions are sent to BBC.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7322983.stm
Suggest any amendments or additions are sent to BBC.
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I may have missed it, but has anyone answered the question posted pages back:
Did the aircraft depart runway 21 and then crash having flown almost a full circuit to return, or did it crash having departed 03 and attempted to turn back?
Sorry if it's a dumb question but I can't seem to find an answer here or on the TV.
As for not having houses under the approach to airports: That's most of West London for the bulldozer then!
Did the aircraft depart runway 21 and then crash having flown almost a full circuit to return, or did it crash having departed 03 and attempted to turn back?
Sorry if it's a dumb question but I can't seem to find an answer here or on the TV.
As for not having houses under the approach to airports: That's most of West London for the bulldozer then!
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Useful to who? I'm sure the AAIB have a coach-load of engineers, scientists and pilots with detailed knowedge etc. available, including people from BA, Boeing and Rolls Royce.
http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/about_us/...cfm?view=print&
I am not doubting that they are very capable, but there are contributors on here with very type specific knowledge.
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Of course it would be better to have an FDR on all aircraft but you have to be practical and the CAA would have more reason to insist on an FDR on passenger carrying commercial aircraft as opposed to private aircraft.
A couple of other Citation 1 accidents have already been mentioned where it would have been invaluable to have an FDR on board. Cost? What price the safety of all Citations? If you have an aircraft worth several million dollars an FDR is not going to break your bank account. If you have an old version then you are going to spend a lot on parts anyway as they wear out. You have to be prepared to sink a fair amount of money into the aircraft anyway. Why not fit an FDR? If it were mandatory I am sure you can convince your accountant.
One reason why commercial airlines are so safe is the information learned over many years of operating them and from incidents and accidents that have happened with the aircraft becoming better designed with that knowledge.
A couple of other Citation 1 accidents have already been mentioned where it would have been invaluable to have an FDR on board. Cost? What price the safety of all Citations? If you have an aircraft worth several million dollars an FDR is not going to break your bank account. If you have an old version then you are going to spend a lot on parts anyway as they wear out. You have to be prepared to sink a fair amount of money into the aircraft anyway. Why not fit an FDR? If it were mandatory I am sure you can convince your accountant.
One reason why commercial airlines are so safe is the information learned over many years of operating them and from incidents and accidents that have happened with the aircraft becoming better designed with that knowledge.
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Channel 5 News at 5pm should get some sort of award for sick reporting. It would have been funny in other circumstances.
They showed a map highlighting first the airport, then the crash site, then (almost unbelievably) went on to highlight two schools and a hospital.
Schools being full of children on a Sunday, of course.
They showed a map highlighting first the airport, then the crash site, then (almost unbelievably) went on to highlight two schools and a hospital.
Schools being full of children on a Sunday, of course.
Saw what I now know was the plume of smoke as we lifted out of Brands Hatch - listening to the Sky News chopper confirming the RA(T) details with Biggin ATC.
Sympathy to all concerned
Sympathy to all concerned