Blink
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One aircraft to date and three more in October,November.
Wasn't aware the Mustang was a heavily depreciating asset,quite the opposite at the moment I would have thought with so many on order,or have I misunderstood you Phil.
Wasn't aware the Mustang was a heavily depreciating asset,quite the opposite at the moment I would have thought with so many on order,or have I misunderstood you Phil.
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Highflight,
Let's see in a few years, obviously with it being a new aircraft no-one really knows. But traditionally brand new aircraft depreciate more in the first 5 years than 10 year old aircraft.
Phil
Let's see in a few years, obviously with it being a new aircraft no-one really knows. But traditionally brand new aircraft depreciate more in the first 5 years than 10 year old aircraft.
Phil
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Flynow,
I think the one thing that Blink does have is a plan. It just remains to be seen if the market research reflects what actually happens at the booking stage. The main question most people have is over the volume of the business and the competitiveness(sp) of the Mustang over other aircraft already in the market.
Just because the plan hasn't been splashed all over here doesn't mean there isn't one.
Phil
I think the one thing that Blink does have is a plan. It just remains to be seen if the market research reflects what actually happens at the booking stage. The main question most people have is over the volume of the business and the competitiveness(sp) of the Mustang over other aircraft already in the market.
Just because the plan hasn't been splashed all over here doesn't mean there isn't one.
Phil
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Disn't suggest that they didn't have a BP, just that it seems to based on a hugely optimistic uptake, and not really in tune with the current economic climate. All the economic indicators have been there for a while, such as the housing market, rising fuel prices, Northern Rock etc...
If they can't make it work with a smaller fleet, with less uptake, then I would suggest they are heading for a fall.
If they can't make it work with a smaller fleet, with less uptake, then I would suggest they are heading for a fall.
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C510s currently making $250k over list, if Blink have deposited these aircraft individually then thats 6 million quid (assuming it carrys on that way) to take the commercial pressure away. Mustang doesn't really have a EU rival price wise so despite northern rock + house prices its still the only business jet to buy for the price that does what it says on the side of the tin. Eclipse I believe has made progress towards being able to fly in clouds buts its still not fully certified and a congressman has apparently taken it on himself to pursue Eclipse and the FAA and the test pilots for FAA certifying it in the first place......
The alternative being an out of warranty Bravo or CJ, ultimately more capable and faster but slightly rich people would tend to buy new and put up with its shortcomings and lower running costs.
The alternative being an out of warranty Bravo or CJ, ultimately more capable and faster but slightly rich people would tend to buy new and put up with its shortcomings and lower running costs.
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G-SPOT,
You're talking from an owner perspective, not a charter client perspective. The million dollar question is, would the charter clients rather pay for a CJ at CJ market rate, or a Mustang at Mustang market rate. The answer is obviously some for the CJ, some for the Mustang.
The thing I don't get is how Blink can possibly hope to make money at the rates published on the website. Anyone can sell a tenners worth of fivers, but can you make money doing so....or have I missed the Blink trick on this one.
You're talking from an owner perspective, not a charter client perspective. The million dollar question is, would the charter clients rather pay for a CJ at CJ market rate, or a Mustang at Mustang market rate. The answer is obviously some for the CJ, some for the Mustang.
The thing I don't get is how Blink can possibly hope to make money at the rates published on the website. Anyone can sell a tenners worth of fivers, but can you make money doing so....or have I missed the Blink trick on this one.
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Sorry Phil should have been clearer
Really trying to make the point about the mustang being good news from a outright sales point of view and far from a depreciating asset. Should Blink decide to scale down the business plan and say take one in 2 and sell the other then we will never know about it on here (if they have any sense), outwardly it will look as though they are experiencing delivery delays or indeed (less likely) delaying takeup. As the whole business plan (DayJet, Blink and other VLJ startups) is based on upbeat bull**** I doubt very much they would admit to scaling back at all.
The point being is that should they decide to scale things back by quietly selling 1/2 their options they have a £3mill cushion with which to see them through the next 2/3 years at least before the city investors start to squirm from cheek to cheek.
If Blink as is, was Blink as was 3 years ago, I think it would have been a resounding success, but I thinks its going to be just too hard for them to reach a sort of critical mass for them to get a foothold on the market they and others are looking to break into.
As you know the market moves fast and I would have given them better odds back in March when this thread started than what I would give them now.
Just means you'll need to keep Barnesy flying on for another three years before laying him out to pasture........
Really trying to make the point about the mustang being good news from a outright sales point of view and far from a depreciating asset. Should Blink decide to scale down the business plan and say take one in 2 and sell the other then we will never know about it on here (if they have any sense), outwardly it will look as though they are experiencing delivery delays or indeed (less likely) delaying takeup. As the whole business plan (DayJet, Blink and other VLJ startups) is based on upbeat bull**** I doubt very much they would admit to scaling back at all.
The point being is that should they decide to scale things back by quietly selling 1/2 their options they have a £3mill cushion with which to see them through the next 2/3 years at least before the city investors start to squirm from cheek to cheek.
If Blink as is, was Blink as was 3 years ago, I think it would have been a resounding success, but I thinks its going to be just too hard for them to reach a sort of critical mass for them to get a foothold on the market they and others are looking to break into.
As you know the market moves fast and I would have given them better odds back in March when this thread started than what I would give them now.
Just means you'll need to keep Barnesy flying on for another three years before laying him out to pasture........
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G-SPOT,
I agree that a position is itself an asset, but stops being an asset upon delivery, at that point it becomes an encumbered loss to the balance sheet, as do all aircraft, but more so new aircraft.
I don't get the way the model works, but will happilly copy it if it does, and with the experience I have in my boardroom I think we'd do a pretty good job of playing with other peoples money.
Phil
I agree that a position is itself an asset, but stops being an asset upon delivery, at that point it becomes an encumbered loss to the balance sheet, as do all aircraft, but more so new aircraft.
I don't get the way the model works, but will happilly copy it if it does, and with the experience I have in my boardroom I think we'd do a pretty good job of playing with other peoples money.
Phil
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Phil,
Who knows where the industry will be in another two or three years,however that said the one aircraft is booked up with flights and customer reactions have been positive.
Very reliable so far with nothing having grounded it thus far and three more due for delivery towards the end of the year.
Who knows where the industry will be in another two or three years,however that said the one aircraft is booked up with flights and customer reactions have been positive.
Very reliable so far with nothing having grounded it thus far and three more due for delivery towards the end of the year.
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Highflight,
I would be deeply concerned if it wasn't booked up if the prices on the website are any more than marketing puff.
Is the aircraft taking more money than it's ROCE and direct operating costs, obviously one aircraft isn't going to fund the whole operation, but it should make a decent contribution to cover depreciation, crew traing and overheads.
Phil
I would be deeply concerned if it wasn't booked up if the prices on the website are any more than marketing puff.
Is the aircraft taking more money than it's ROCE and direct operating costs, obviously one aircraft isn't going to fund the whole operation, but it should make a decent contribution to cover depreciation, crew traing and overheads.
Phil
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"The first three months have been great, the aircraft has been flying around 12h a day with quick turnarounds" says Blink co-founder and managing director Peter Leiman. "
Full article here
Blink expands with three more Cessna Citation Mustangs
It's funny, given the amount of sightings of the aircraft on the ground at base, and the lack of any photo's of it flying anywhere apart from EBACE on any of the "spotters sites", they have done incredibly well to get so many hours utilisation. I assume that a publication such as Flight Global would check that the figures are correct, and not simply marketing spin before they published?
Phil
Full article here
Blink expands with three more Cessna Citation Mustangs
It's funny, given the amount of sightings of the aircraft on the ground at base, and the lack of any photo's of it flying anywhere apart from EBACE on any of the "spotters sites", they have done incredibly well to get so many hours utilisation. I assume that a publication such as Flight Global would check that the figures are correct, and not simply marketing spin before they published?
Phil
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Hmmmm, highly unlikely that anyone would achieve that level of utilization on a small jet. If he said 12 hours a week, that would be nearer the truth I would guess. As for Flight Global publishing these quotes ; they are only quoting what they have been told, but I guess it does mean that you can take any "facts" like this with a pinch of salt.
I would also point out that anyone can sell a handful of fivers for a quid which is what seems to be happening. Perhaps their USP is selling below operating cost?
I would also point out that anyone can sell a handful of fivers for a quid which is what seems to be happening. Perhaps their USP is selling below operating cost?
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Flynow,
We were privvy to 16 different quotes from Blink that represented a typical week on our CJ's.
By the time we had added on the Landing / Handling fees the total price for the 16 flights was £119,000. The same routes on our CJ's would be £107,000 at normal pricing - less to brokers. Some routes were cheaper, but bizarrely the ones that an operator should want less.
Apart from the small percentage of clients that insist on a New airframe, there is nothing different to the current CJ market apart from excluded landing fees and a smaller cabin, payload.
It's all marketing spin, both the fundraising hype and the client facing stuff. We have had a few clients approached by them and as far as I know not lost one yet.
Phil
We were privvy to 16 different quotes from Blink that represented a typical week on our CJ's.
By the time we had added on the Landing / Handling fees the total price for the 16 flights was £119,000. The same routes on our CJ's would be £107,000 at normal pricing - less to brokers. Some routes were cheaper, but bizarrely the ones that an operator should want less.
Apart from the small percentage of clients that insist on a New airframe, there is nothing different to the current CJ market apart from excluded landing fees and a smaller cabin, payload.
It's all marketing spin, both the fundraising hype and the client facing stuff. We have had a few clients approached by them and as far as I know not lost one yet.
Phil
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Phil,
You really are a miserable old bugger
aren't you and are obviously not going to be happy until you see this company bite the dust.
Instead of spending so much time on PPRune(in itself rather worrying given the present economic climate)pontificating how Blink are managing to attract business and how it must be all smoke and mirrors, why don't you pick up the phone and give Mr Peter Leiman a ring,having met him several times you will find him a very personable chap. As far as I'm aware the company has no need to go poaching other operators clients,they have enough of their own,certainly enough to keep the one aircraft busy for the time being. I think you will find that the aircraft aren't flying 12 hours a day,more likely 6 occasionally 8 and further afield than you might have thought but that they are flying many days in the month with few positionong sectors.
Am I to believe you have a secret army of aircraft spotters and photographers touring the UK trying to discover whose aircraft are sitting on the ground and whose are flying(funny way to run a business).Why can't you just concentrate on growing your operation and be a liitle graceful to these two young men who have had the courage and determination to start a new company in a notoriously difficult industry and thereby provide employment to 14 pilots. Your ongoing sly digs do you and your company no credit whatsoever.
For what it's worth I've now been fortunate enough to fly both the Mustang and CJ1, cabin wise there isn't a lot to seperate both aircraft after all once your in your seat, you generally remain seated as you would if you were being conveyed around in a car. Cockpit wise the Mustang seems to be a bit roomier because of its lack of centre consul although in truth it must be smaller than the CJ1 cockpit. Having been spoilt by the Mustang I found the CJ1 cockpit an ergonomic nightmare,you can laugh at the Garmin avionics if you choose but they do the job very well with TCAS II soon to be introduced and a software upgrade giving an artificial terrain view on the pilot's PFDs, all very advanced for a simple little aircraft. I know that given the choice the aircraft I would prefer to fly.
PS It's not my company just fed up with all the negative attitude on PPRune. Your not all former bankers or short sellers are you? You really are a joyless bunch,thank god I don't work for you. Go and talk to Mr Brown I hear he is in need of someone to cheer him up,seems he is having a little problem with the economy.
You really are a miserable old bugger
aren't you and are obviously not going to be happy until you see this company bite the dust.Instead of spending so much time on PPRune(in itself rather worrying given the present economic climate)pontificating how Blink are managing to attract business and how it must be all smoke and mirrors, why don't you pick up the phone and give Mr Peter Leiman a ring,having met him several times you will find him a very personable chap. As far as I'm aware the company has no need to go poaching other operators clients,they have enough of their own,certainly enough to keep the one aircraft busy for the time being. I think you will find that the aircraft aren't flying 12 hours a day,more likely 6 occasionally 8 and further afield than you might have thought but that they are flying many days in the month with few positionong sectors.
Am I to believe you have a secret army of aircraft spotters and photographers touring the UK trying to discover whose aircraft are sitting on the ground and whose are flying(funny way to run a business).Why can't you just concentrate on growing your operation and be a liitle graceful to these two young men who have had the courage and determination to start a new company in a notoriously difficult industry and thereby provide employment to 14 pilots. Your ongoing sly digs do you and your company no credit whatsoever.
For what it's worth I've now been fortunate enough to fly both the Mustang and CJ1, cabin wise there isn't a lot to seperate both aircraft after all once your in your seat, you generally remain seated as you would if you were being conveyed around in a car. Cockpit wise the Mustang seems to be a bit roomier because of its lack of centre consul although in truth it must be smaller than the CJ1 cockpit. Having been spoilt by the Mustang I found the CJ1 cockpit an ergonomic nightmare,you can laugh at the Garmin avionics if you choose but they do the job very well with TCAS II soon to be introduced and a software upgrade giving an artificial terrain view on the pilot's PFDs, all very advanced for a simple little aircraft. I know that given the choice the aircraft I would prefer to fly.
PS It's not my company just fed up with all the negative attitude on PPRune. Your not all former bankers or short sellers are you? You really are a joyless bunch,thank god I don't work for you. Go and talk to Mr Brown I hear he is in need of someone to cheer him up,seems he is having a little problem with the economy.
Last edited by Highflight420; 30th Sep 2008 at 21:34.
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12hrs a day?!
That's completely nuts - even with the mustangs lack of speed that's not a consistantly achieveable figure to achieve. 1.2hrs perhaps?
I'm with Phil in that besides a new aircraft (and even then it's not like there aren't enough young CJ's on the market in Europe) I really can't see any advantage to the mustang. And his own fleet is run off it's feet - can't get a CJ for love nor money out of Bristol ;-).
That's completely nuts - even with the mustangs lack of speed that's not a consistantly achieveable figure to achieve. 1.2hrs perhaps?
I'm with Phil in that besides a new aircraft (and even then it's not like there aren't enough young CJ's on the market in Europe) I really can't see any advantage to the mustang. And his own fleet is run off it's feet - can't get a CJ for love nor money out of Bristol ;-).
Must be a typo!
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Highflight
Whatever your thoughts on Phils personal outlook on life......
will you YES or NO put your name to the 12hr per day claim made by your company....
A simple answer for a simple question please
Whatever your thoughts on Phils personal outlook on life......
will you YES or NO put your name to the 12hr per day claim made by your company....
A simple answer for a simple question please