Citation down -- Augusta, Maine
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Citation down -- Augusta, Maine
Another regrettable and possibly entirely avoidable loss.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl.../BADIUR2AE.DTL
"Declined de-icing." Not an especially inspiring thing to have on one's gravestone.
--
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl.../BADIUR2AE.DTL
"Declined de-icing." Not an especially inspiring thing to have on one's gravestone.
--
Yes, it is not really clever to decline de-icing in freezing rain(?) or at least adverse weather conditions. But...
...why did these guys not stop her from taking off? Yes, the PIC is the PIC, but sometimes we are target-fixated and don't see the big picture anymore...
"What puzzles us is why she declined the deicing," Perry said. "The results were really inevitable. You just can't fly an airplane without deicing. It doesn't make any sense to us."
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Not familiar with the airspace but 5-10 minutes after take-off, shouldn't the aircraft have been closer to FL300 than 3000'? If so, maybe ice was affecting the wings ability to produce lift and therefore the aircraft's ability to climb.
NTSB will investigate and hopefully we'll learn something.
Condolences to the family and friends.
Chips
NTSB will investigate and hopefully we'll learn something.
Condolences to the family and friends.
Chips
Hi Flintstone,
I know, I know...but I wonder whether they really voiced their concerns towards the pilot or not. Probably this would have been enough, I would see this as my responsibility, if I was in such a job. But, then again, we don't know the exact circumstances. Maybe something else went wrong.
I know, I know...but I wonder whether they really voiced their concerns towards the pilot or not. Probably this would have been enough, I would see this as my responsibility, if I was in such a job. But, then again, we don't know the exact circumstances. Maybe something else went wrong.
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Far too little info here to judge...
As a professional pilot you try to avoid unnecessary deicing where ever possible. What puzzles me, and I witnessed that more than once, are the professionals that try to avoid NECESSARY deicing.
Maybe the freezing rain did overcome the antiice/deice capabilities of the CJ?
(bleedaired wings, boots on tail)
As a professional pilot you try to avoid unnecessary deicing where ever possible. What puzzles me, and I witnessed that more than once, are the professionals that try to avoid NECESSARY deicing.
Maybe the freezing rain did overcome the antiice/deice capabilities of the CJ?
(bleedaired wings, boots on tail)
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I met this pilot on numerous occasions when she attended re-current training at FSI, all in all she was a good and responsible pilot. One cannot assume anything at this point so it would be wrong to speculate.
May she rest in peace.
May she rest in peace.
As a professional pilot you try to avoid unnecessary deicing where ever possible.
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Could have been anything.
If you read the article, there is no doubt the pilot had never been a professional, but a biz owner that somehow found the hours, and time, and someway past the insurance guy to get into her own jet.
So right off the bat we aren't talking about a 10,000 hr seasoned captain here. Read my posts on the cable airport crash...I helped train that guy...another biz owner that thinks he's a pilot.
We don't know if it's icing and I can tell you that icing didn't bring the Citation down...even so, with both engines flamed out, so what...she didn't glide to the ground, but lost control...and Citations have great deicing ability.
This is pilot error, or possibly there was just something wrong with the aircraft, like water in the fuel, ect....
So right off the bat we aren't talking about a 10,000 hr seasoned captain here. Read my posts on the cable airport crash...I helped train that guy...another biz owner that thinks he's a pilot.
We don't know if it's icing and I can tell you that icing didn't bring the Citation down...even so, with both engines flamed out, so what...she didn't glide to the ground, but lost control...and Citations have great deicing ability.
This is pilot error, or possibly there was just something wrong with the aircraft, like water in the fuel, ect....
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ssg, your post is about the level that one would expect from someone who feels the need to include "martial arts" in his profile (for sure you can't be a she)
I fly my light twin often on business, and have flown with people who are professional pilots, who have scared me sh1tless, and "non-professionals" who are great operators. Professional is a mind set, not just doing it for pay.
Personally, and these are my own limits, night IFR in bad weather would never be a single pilot operation for me, too much workload in the event of an important failure like the AI for example. A second pilot in that case, would be able to take control, transitioning to the right side instruments, or at least share the workload if both sides were down and standbys were all that were available.
Sometimes what is legal is not always what is sensible.
I fly my light twin often on business, and have flown with people who are professional pilots, who have scared me sh1tless, and "non-professionals" who are great operators. Professional is a mind set, not just doing it for pay.
Personally, and these are my own limits, night IFR in bad weather would never be a single pilot operation for me, too much workload in the event of an important failure like the AI for example. A second pilot in that case, would be able to take control, transitioning to the right side instruments, or at least share the workload if both sides were down and standbys were all that were available.
Sometimes what is legal is not always what is sensible.
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This is an odd one......
Original report.......follow up below
Telecom pioneer, son die in plane crash
CEO WAS PILOTING THE CRAFT IN MAINE
By Dana Hull
Mercury News
Article Launched: 02/03/2008 01:39:31 AM PST
A Bay Area telecommunications pioneer and her 10-year-old son were killed
Friday night after their private jet crashed in the woods as they left
Augusta, Maine.
Jeanette Symons, to whom the plane was registered, was believed to be
piloting the craft with her 10-year-old son as the passenger, according to
Maine Public Safety Department spokesman Stephen McCausland.
Symons, 45, co-founded and was chief executive officer of Industrious Kid,
an Oakland-based company that creates online products for children with
age-appropriate content. She regularly commuted by plane between her home in
Steamboat Springs, Colo., and the Bay Area.
"She's been flying for over 20 years. She's a top-notch pilot," said Tim
Donovan, the company's vice president of marketing. Donovan said Symons' son
had been attending a weeklong ski camp.
Symons leaves a 7-year-old daughter and is survived by her parents and two
brothers, Donovan said.
Before founding Industrious Kid, Symons co-founded Zhone Technologies and
worked at Ascend Communications. In 2001, she was listed as one of the
wealthiest people in the country under the age of 40. At the time, she was
39.
Symons is also the creator of the Web site imbee.com, which she created to
help children network with friends online while avoiding some of the dangers
of the Internet.
After the plane took off at 5:45 p.m., bound for Lincoln, Neb., an air
traffic controller in Portland was talking to the pilot by radio and
tracking the aircraft on radar, Federal Aviation Administration officials
said.
When the plane was at about 3,000 feet, the pilot declared an emergency,
saying there was a problem with the plane's attitude indicator. The
controller attempted to guide the pilot back to the Augusta airport but lost
radio contact and saw the plane descend rapidly on radar.
Police said a debris field about 300 yards long was found at the scene of
the wreck.
John Guimond, manager of the Augusta State Airport, said the plane was a
Cessna Citation and that it crashed roughly 10 miles from the airport.
McCausland said the Maine Department of Public Safety was first notified
about the downed aircraft when the FAA contacted them.
Representatives from the FAA were expected to head to West Gardiner to begin
an investigation.
The airport is owned by the state of Maine but managed and operated by the
city of Augusta.
Freezing rain was falling in Augusta at the time of the crash, according to
the National Weather Service.
Follow up report........
Pilot in deadly crash did not de-ice plane
By Tom McGhee
The Denver Post
Article Last Updated: 02/04/2008 01:39:49 AM MST
Jeanette Symons, 45, was an Internet entrepreneur who moved to Steamboat
Springs from San Francisco in 2006.
An Internet entrepreneur from Steamboat Springs didn't have the ice removed
from her plane before she left on the fatal flight that killed her and her
10-year-old son, airport officials said.
Jeanette Symons, 45, a telecommunications pioneer and co-founder of
Industrious Kid, which creates online products for children, was piloting
her Cessna Citation jet when it crashed Friday after takeoff from Augusta
State Airport in Maine.
Symons was returning to Steamboat after spending a week at a ski camp on
Sugar Loaf Mountain with her son.
Symons took off during a storm that coated the ground, vehicles and trees
with a granular layer of ice, said William Perry, owner of Maine Instrument
Flight, which operates facilities at the airport.
"It was a spooky night; it was not easy to navigate," he said Sunday.
With the storm looming Friday morning, Symons called the airport and asked
that her plane be parked in the hangar, Perry said.
The company put the plane in the hangar but had to remove it later to
shelter a regional jet owned by Colgen, the airline that serves the airport.
About 5:30 p.m., Symons drove her rental car to the plane, stowed her gear
and looked over the aircraft, Perry said.
"Our guys were assuming she was going to have to be de-iced. She came in and
said, 'I'm all set.' Our guy said, 'Are you sure?" and she said, 'No, I'm
all set,'" Perry said. "She may have looked the plane over and said there's
not much ice. All I can tell you is there was ice all over everything."
Symons, who didn't appear to be inebriated or otherwise incapacitated, then
did something that further surprised Perry's employees.
Instead of heading west on a taxiway to the runway, she cut across a field
and drove the plane through a ditch, blasting her engines to get through the
depression, said Perry, who heard the story from his workers.
She then followed a meandering route to the runway.
"She got almost to the runway, and our guys turned the field lights on. She
should have done that herself at that point. I think she just got confused;
it was a strange airport, and she was trying to feel her way around," Perry
said.
A layer of ice can bring an aircraft down, said Peter Knudson, a spokesman
for the National Transportation Safety Board. "It reduces the lift, and it
can lead to a stall."
The NTSB is investigating the accident, but it could be a year before
results are known.
Symons moved from San Francisco to Steamboat Springs about 18 months ago.
The San Francisco Chronicle said the move was an effort to give her two
children recreational opportunities not available in the city. She regularly
commuted to the Bay Area by plane.
Symons is survived by her 7-year-old daughter, Jennie.
Telecom pioneer, son die in plane crash
CEO WAS PILOTING THE CRAFT IN MAINE
By Dana Hull
Mercury News
Article Launched: 02/03/2008 01:39:31 AM PST
A Bay Area telecommunications pioneer and her 10-year-old son were killed
Friday night after their private jet crashed in the woods as they left
Augusta, Maine.
Jeanette Symons, to whom the plane was registered, was believed to be
piloting the craft with her 10-year-old son as the passenger, according to
Maine Public Safety Department spokesman Stephen McCausland.
Symons, 45, co-founded and was chief executive officer of Industrious Kid,
an Oakland-based company that creates online products for children with
age-appropriate content. She regularly commuted by plane between her home in
Steamboat Springs, Colo., and the Bay Area.
"She's been flying for over 20 years. She's a top-notch pilot," said Tim
Donovan, the company's vice president of marketing. Donovan said Symons' son
had been attending a weeklong ski camp.
Symons leaves a 7-year-old daughter and is survived by her parents and two
brothers, Donovan said.
Before founding Industrious Kid, Symons co-founded Zhone Technologies and
worked at Ascend Communications. In 2001, she was listed as one of the
wealthiest people in the country under the age of 40. At the time, she was
39.
Symons is also the creator of the Web site imbee.com, which she created to
help children network with friends online while avoiding some of the dangers
of the Internet.
After the plane took off at 5:45 p.m., bound for Lincoln, Neb., an air
traffic controller in Portland was talking to the pilot by radio and
tracking the aircraft on radar, Federal Aviation Administration officials
said.
When the plane was at about 3,000 feet, the pilot declared an emergency,
saying there was a problem with the plane's attitude indicator. The
controller attempted to guide the pilot back to the Augusta airport but lost
radio contact and saw the plane descend rapidly on radar.
Police said a debris field about 300 yards long was found at the scene of
the wreck.
John Guimond, manager of the Augusta State Airport, said the plane was a
Cessna Citation and that it crashed roughly 10 miles from the airport.
McCausland said the Maine Department of Public Safety was first notified
about the downed aircraft when the FAA contacted them.
Representatives from the FAA were expected to head to West Gardiner to begin
an investigation.
The airport is owned by the state of Maine but managed and operated by the
city of Augusta.
Freezing rain was falling in Augusta at the time of the crash, according to
the National Weather Service.
Follow up report........
Pilot in deadly crash did not de-ice plane
By Tom McGhee
The Denver Post
Article Last Updated: 02/04/2008 01:39:49 AM MST
Jeanette Symons, 45, was an Internet entrepreneur who moved to Steamboat
Springs from San Francisco in 2006.
An Internet entrepreneur from Steamboat Springs didn't have the ice removed
from her plane before she left on the fatal flight that killed her and her
10-year-old son, airport officials said.
Jeanette Symons, 45, a telecommunications pioneer and co-founder of
Industrious Kid, which creates online products for children, was piloting
her Cessna Citation jet when it crashed Friday after takeoff from Augusta
State Airport in Maine.
Symons was returning to Steamboat after spending a week at a ski camp on
Sugar Loaf Mountain with her son.
Symons took off during a storm that coated the ground, vehicles and trees
with a granular layer of ice, said William Perry, owner of Maine Instrument
Flight, which operates facilities at the airport.
"It was a spooky night; it was not easy to navigate," he said Sunday.
With the storm looming Friday morning, Symons called the airport and asked
that her plane be parked in the hangar, Perry said.
The company put the plane in the hangar but had to remove it later to
shelter a regional jet owned by Colgen, the airline that serves the airport.
About 5:30 p.m., Symons drove her rental car to the plane, stowed her gear
and looked over the aircraft, Perry said.
"Our guys were assuming she was going to have to be de-iced. She came in and
said, 'I'm all set.' Our guy said, 'Are you sure?" and she said, 'No, I'm
all set,'" Perry said. "She may have looked the plane over and said there's
not much ice. All I can tell you is there was ice all over everything."
Symons, who didn't appear to be inebriated or otherwise incapacitated, then
did something that further surprised Perry's employees.
Instead of heading west on a taxiway to the runway, she cut across a field
and drove the plane through a ditch, blasting her engines to get through the
depression, said Perry, who heard the story from his workers.
She then followed a meandering route to the runway.
"She got almost to the runway, and our guys turned the field lights on. She
should have done that herself at that point. I think she just got confused;
it was a strange airport, and she was trying to feel her way around," Perry
said.
A layer of ice can bring an aircraft down, said Peter Knudson, a spokesman
for the National Transportation Safety Board. "It reduces the lift, and it
can lead to a stall."
The NTSB is investigating the accident, but it could be a year before
results are known.
Symons moved from San Francisco to Steamboat Springs about 18 months ago.
The San Francisco Chronicle said the move was an effort to give her two
children recreational opportunities not available in the city. She regularly
commuted to the Bay Area by plane.
Symons is survived by her 7-year-old daughter, Jennie.
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A very good comment!
I see and hear more and more in this industry that pilots who are 'paid' tend to think they are better pilots [professionals] than those who fly for themselves.
I have flown with so-called professionals who can't even tell which of the 'de-icing' fluids is warm and which isn't. Look at all the airline accidents due to pilot error...they were all professionals too!
I see and hear more and more in this industry that pilots who are 'paid' tend to think they are better pilots [professionals] than those who fly for themselves.
I have flown with so-called professionals who can't even tell which of the 'de-icing' fluids is warm and which isn't. Look at all the airline accidents due to pilot error...they were all professionals too!
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failed attitude indicator:
I would think that this plane had at least two attitude indicators. One in front of the pilot, one in front of the copilot's seat and perhaps a third standby instrument.
I can even imagine a possible installation of EFIS type instruments in front of the pilot.
BUT, conflicting information can be a real brain challenge...which one or two are correct? And then, having the courage to use the proper one and ignore the other? Covering the bad instrument with a piece of paper would be one of the first things I would do (piece of paper, spit on it and slop it on the bad one).
My feeling is that confusion was in the mind of the pilot. Perhaps confusion from more than one source. Perhaps an over dependence on auto pilot and lack of familiarity with unusual attitude recovery. Perhaps pitot tube was iced over giving eroneous air speed information?
To get to 3000' would indicate to me that the wings were ok for takeoff and climbout. (in terms of ice)
Vertigo, illusions, etc. may play a part. The bit about taxi route concerns me quite a bit. Confusion, subtle incapacitation can be deadly.
I would think that this plane had at least two attitude indicators. One in front of the pilot, one in front of the copilot's seat and perhaps a third standby instrument.
I can even imagine a possible installation of EFIS type instruments in front of the pilot.
BUT, conflicting information can be a real brain challenge...which one or two are correct? And then, having the courage to use the proper one and ignore the other? Covering the bad instrument with a piece of paper would be one of the first things I would do (piece of paper, spit on it and slop it on the bad one).
My feeling is that confusion was in the mind of the pilot. Perhaps confusion from more than one source. Perhaps an over dependence on auto pilot and lack of familiarity with unusual attitude recovery. Perhaps pitot tube was iced over giving eroneous air speed information?
To get to 3000' would indicate to me that the wings were ok for takeoff and climbout. (in terms of ice)
Vertigo, illusions, etc. may play a part. The bit about taxi route concerns me quite a bit. Confusion, subtle incapacitation can be deadly.
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N102PT Cessna 525
I recall the Aero Peru B757 that took off with tape over the static ports, out over open ocean at night. Spatial Disorientation. News reports state N102PT was ascending to 10000, levelled off at 3000 reporting loss of Attitude Indicator. Aircraft flew a distance of 9 miles from the airport, ATC reported a rapid decent. Aircraft burned for some time after the accident.http://kennebecjournal.mainetoday.co...l/4723379.html News Story http://myaviation.net/search/photo_s...hp?id=00892223 Photo N102PT