Citation down -- Augusta, Maine
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TAS? Thought thats the stby instrument pito tube.
Which is fed by the R/H pitot on the 525īs.
Main difference here: Bravo/Ultra/Encore FAR25, C525īs FAR 23.
Which is fed by the R/H pitot on the 525īs.
Main difference here: Bravo/Ultra/Encore FAR25, C525īs FAR 23.
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Mindset to handle an emergeny? no.
Perhaps the lack of deicing is not so much an aerodynamic problem as a mindset problem.
The ditch is another mindset problem.
And the runway light issue.
this person needed to get out of Maine...why? we will never really know.
But the mindset of this person was not the mindset of a pilot for any plane, let alone a nice little , well equipped jet.
While it is unlikely we will ever know, I wonder if this person was on any form of anti depressent medication or the like?
The ditch is another mindset problem.
And the runway light issue.
this person needed to get out of Maine...why? we will never really know.
But the mindset of this person was not the mindset of a pilot for any plane, let alone a nice little , well equipped jet.
While it is unlikely we will ever know, I wonder if this person was on any form of anti depressent medication or the like?
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I agree mindset is a valued question. However, there was also interaction with those on the ground in regard to however many details or presumed detail of service there would be provided, or an understanding of such service. I had seen the plane days before parked outside next to a hangar and it was at least away from the wind or the likely direction of any storm coming in. I had come in to Logan and our pilot announced that there was a likely chance of rain showers and I expected perhaps icing coming back in the B1900 from Logan to Augusta as a possibility.
I don't know absolutely, but, I do not believe the CJ1 was covered. Engine caps, pitot covers etc. The plane was to be put in the B1900s hangar and was the day it was scheduled for departure. Because, it was sharing the B1900 space when the B1900 came in, the CJ was placed outside. For the sake of argument and nothing else factual to bear, let's assume the pilot expected to drive up to the plane in the hangar in order to transfer luggage and make ready for departure. The ground crew countered and expected the plane would be de-iced, following the same procedure in place when the B1900 is prepped in the morning. I'm not stating fact just a case of cause and effect.
In following such a train of thought, because the operator of the B1900 had cancelled all other scheduled flights for the day that the cancellations were because the flight criteria was not met. So no matter what flight service there is that can be performed it still can't satisfy flight criteria.
I think what saddens me most is that in Maine, there are ways of life and I know the people at Augusta for them the airport is that way of life. They know the skies, they knew there's that downspout out there that's always there and even though it wasn't stated as such, they knew from all the years it was your own call and judgment to leave, but we're all also here to help. If it's freezing rain out, you'll never make it... I can't say it right, but like any airport there is always the crew, the few that have dedicated their own lives, to making the airport the place it is and that is what has prompted me to write this opinion. In my own words I would have said, "Mam, you're #2 behind the B1900, plan on a 10:30 departure. We're all tired; its been a long day Im going home, and there is a storm"
It's just how it is here or else where. My own instructor, "push pull Paul," had his own way of teaching flight and that's just how it is. It's a learning process. So when you hear a Mainer say, "you can't get there from here" it is much more profound than you're likely to imagine at first. It is a lesson that is tried and trued, and if you want to get to where you're going, you just might have to follow someone that has already been there.
What leaves me dead in my own tracks is having read what news reports there are about this incident. There are too many points of concern for one to have ever continued to proceed to ever take-off. In the simplest way, I doubt if the field had a control tower, that any controller would have ever cleared the CJ1 for take-off. For one thing I would assume in the FAR there is a thing or two about taxing off the taxiway and into a ditch before take-off. I would bet hands down there is also paper work involved.
There were statements or other concerns that if true would mean the pre-flight check was not satisfied. Failure to de-ice (under ideal icing conditions: -Temp.~Dew point+Wind)being of primary concern and the reason such pre-flight conditions was not satisfied. I would challenge the flight plan for departure as well. Departing on 35/17, and not 17 as reported (winds are 12 kts. NNE) I would line up for the Waterville airport just 19 miles away, due north. Fly to the outer marker(s), and then return to Augusta at altitude, and have Boston center up on the com with Portland approach. Or, continue north towards BGR in order to avoid the rain/snow line.
I doubt Portland approach is going to give me clearance over 10,000 and this is one of those times it would be nice to be up and out of it... In this way at least there are three routes to return to an airport if for any reason there are in flight problems.
The runway is not plowed (Unreliable). It is sloshed out if I understood correctly. It had snowed and then turned to rain. However, I think I understood they wanted to allow the snow to set up because of the rain, before trying to clear it off. Why not, the weather was cats and dogs, it wouldn't be any clearer when they finished by 7 pm, than if they waited until morning when it was clear out. So again, you're #2 after the B1900 the next day.
Now I have a few questions. Why doesn't the flight management system compute the flight envelope? If the tanks were topped off, and the runway was not plowed where is there room to roll for take off? Reportedly, the plane was seen under performing during take off.
How much ice can accumulate before causing aerodynamic failure? I've been out in an aero-commander with too much ice, so I would guess the CJ1 would take a few or more inches of ice before turning in. Again, if the tanks are topped off, and there is freezing rain, then weight is at critical mass. But still something is wrong. The failure is too sudden. [ departure is 17 and not 35] A 35 departure based on initial report of flight time w/b Lift off, climb out (pattern 1400) left (upwind) base out, left downwind, then with in 12 miles failure. A 17 departure as officially reported now suggest immediate and pending systems failure.
What damage could have been caused when the plane became stuck in what was described as a ditch that you wouldn't want to drive your jeep through? How much pressure can the tires take? If there was an abrupt stop could that have caused malfunction to any of the instruments? Could the nose cone be damaged? What part of the warning system would alert the pilot to any structural failure if such damage occurred?
Bleed Air -- Engine and Tailcone Bleed Air Leaks
bleed air heat damage
NTSB recomendations
I don't know absolutely, but, I do not believe the CJ1 was covered. Engine caps, pitot covers etc. The plane was to be put in the B1900s hangar and was the day it was scheduled for departure. Because, it was sharing the B1900 space when the B1900 came in, the CJ was placed outside. For the sake of argument and nothing else factual to bear, let's assume the pilot expected to drive up to the plane in the hangar in order to transfer luggage and make ready for departure. The ground crew countered and expected the plane would be de-iced, following the same procedure in place when the B1900 is prepped in the morning. I'm not stating fact just a case of cause and effect.
In following such a train of thought, because the operator of the B1900 had cancelled all other scheduled flights for the day that the cancellations were because the flight criteria was not met. So no matter what flight service there is that can be performed it still can't satisfy flight criteria.
I think what saddens me most is that in Maine, there are ways of life and I know the people at Augusta for them the airport is that way of life. They know the skies, they knew there's that downspout out there that's always there and even though it wasn't stated as such, they knew from all the years it was your own call and judgment to leave, but we're all also here to help. If it's freezing rain out, you'll never make it... I can't say it right, but like any airport there is always the crew, the few that have dedicated their own lives, to making the airport the place it is and that is what has prompted me to write this opinion. In my own words I would have said, "Mam, you're #2 behind the B1900, plan on a 10:30 departure. We're all tired; its been a long day Im going home, and there is a storm"
It's just how it is here or else where. My own instructor, "push pull Paul," had his own way of teaching flight and that's just how it is. It's a learning process. So when you hear a Mainer say, "you can't get there from here" it is much more profound than you're likely to imagine at first. It is a lesson that is tried and trued, and if you want to get to where you're going, you just might have to follow someone that has already been there.
What leaves me dead in my own tracks is having read what news reports there are about this incident. There are too many points of concern for one to have ever continued to proceed to ever take-off. In the simplest way, I doubt if the field had a control tower, that any controller would have ever cleared the CJ1 for take-off. For one thing I would assume in the FAR there is a thing or two about taxing off the taxiway and into a ditch before take-off. I would bet hands down there is also paper work involved.
There were statements or other concerns that if true would mean the pre-flight check was not satisfied. Failure to de-ice (under ideal icing conditions: -Temp.~Dew point+Wind)being of primary concern and the reason such pre-flight conditions was not satisfied. I would challenge the flight plan for departure as well. Departing on 35/17, and not 17 as reported (winds are 12 kts. NNE) I would line up for the Waterville airport just 19 miles away, due north. Fly to the outer marker(s), and then return to Augusta at altitude, and have Boston center up on the com with Portland approach. Or, continue north towards BGR in order to avoid the rain/snow line.
I doubt Portland approach is going to give me clearance over 10,000 and this is one of those times it would be nice to be up and out of it... In this way at least there are three routes to return to an airport if for any reason there are in flight problems.
The runway is not plowed (Unreliable). It is sloshed out if I understood correctly. It had snowed and then turned to rain. However, I think I understood they wanted to allow the snow to set up because of the rain, before trying to clear it off. Why not, the weather was cats and dogs, it wouldn't be any clearer when they finished by 7 pm, than if they waited until morning when it was clear out. So again, you're #2 after the B1900 the next day.
Now I have a few questions. Why doesn't the flight management system compute the flight envelope? If the tanks were topped off, and the runway was not plowed where is there room to roll for take off? Reportedly, the plane was seen under performing during take off.
How much ice can accumulate before causing aerodynamic failure? I've been out in an aero-commander with too much ice, so I would guess the CJ1 would take a few or more inches of ice before turning in. Again, if the tanks are topped off, and there is freezing rain, then weight is at critical mass. But still something is wrong. The failure is too sudden. [ departure is 17 and not 35] A 35 departure based on initial report of flight time w/b Lift off, climb out (pattern 1400) left (upwind) base out, left downwind, then with in 12 miles failure. A 17 departure as officially reported now suggest immediate and pending systems failure.
What damage could have been caused when the plane became stuck in what was described as a ditch that you wouldn't want to drive your jeep through? How much pressure can the tires take? If there was an abrupt stop could that have caused malfunction to any of the instruments? Could the nose cone be damaged? What part of the warning system would alert the pilot to any structural failure if such damage occurred?
Bleed Air -- Engine and Tailcone Bleed Air Leaks
bleed air heat damage
NTSB recomendations
Last edited by E.Z. Flyer; 12th Feb 2008 at 15:24.
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EZ
I've flown in Maine quite a bit...but farther south...to the famed "jetport" never to augusta' s airport in question. Lived in Boston for quite awhile.
A tower would certainly have asked about going into the ditch/and perhaps made the pilot reconsider.
I haven't read about performance problems witnessed during takeoff...interesting.
I understand a preliminary report will be issued in a couple of days.
I've flown in Maine quite a bit...but farther south...to the famed "jetport" never to augusta' s airport in question. Lived in Boston for quite awhile.
A tower would certainly have asked about going into the ditch/and perhaps made the pilot reconsider.
I haven't read about performance problems witnessed during takeoff...interesting.
I understand a preliminary report will be issued in a couple of days.
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wondering what kind of gyro
are they laser ring gyros, or the good old fashioned spinning gyros? ITs efis so I think the former but am not sure.
that point about bumping into the ditch possibly damaging some instruments is a valid one
are they laser ring gyros, or the good old fashioned spinning gyros? ITs efis so I think the former but am not sure.
that point about bumping into the ditch possibly damaging some instruments is a valid one
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after reading this report I believe that there was confusion in the mind of the pilot...even before takeoff.
illness? medications? emotional stress? whatever.
a modern jet with three gyros would rarely if ever lose all the gyros simultaneously. it is the pilot's responsibility to interpret all information including heading change to understand what the horizion/gyro is telling you.
vertigo? trust your instruments?
when in doubt, and I say this with some reservation, if the plane was trimmed up properly, the engines are running...let go for a few seconds...it might just fly better without your input.
key word: MIGHT
illness? medications? emotional stress? whatever.
a modern jet with three gyros would rarely if ever lose all the gyros simultaneously. it is the pilot's responsibility to interpret all information including heading change to understand what the horizion/gyro is telling you.
vertigo? trust your instruments?
when in doubt, and I say this with some reservation, if the plane was trimmed up properly, the engines are running...let go for a few seconds...it might just fly better without your input.
key word: MIGHT
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Interesting...
Hard IFR flying separates the pilots from the tourists in many ways, simply because to actualy sit in the soup and be comfortable with it, requires years of doing it. The operative word here is 'comfortable'. Having actualy done it for some time.
Here in Oregon, I know of many corporate flight depts, where the boss makes the go no go, weather decision, simply because the guys they hired have about zero actual instrument experience, and they are in jets... Needless to say these flight depts fly about 150 hours per year, on nice days, and everyone is scared to fly with them...but the boss is saving money.
Going back to a Citation, where at school they teach that a pilot should use the auto pilot vs a nice thing to have.
I remember guys in the old days that flew new 210s ect, and couldn't wait to get a new auto pilot installed as that was how they could fly via instruments, let the plane do the work.
I go back to pre - EFIS, pre GPS, pre FMS, Pre-Flight Director, Pre - HSI, and flying by hand was just how it was done....sounds archaic now...but when all the those goodies came along, most of us flying in the soup honestly questioned why someone would need to drop $5k on an HSI, when vor needles worked just great.
I have seen flight depts scrub flights because the pilot couldn't work the Direct To function on the FMS. I know another flight dept, that put the plane down for three months upgrading from a GNSXL to UNS1, because the pilot thought the GNSXL was 'unsafe' and didn't do coupled approaches.
The point: It's a tragedy, when someone crashes a perfectly good aircraft, especialy a jet, but really tragic when that someone takes out someone that was counting on them for getting them from point a to b.
The fact of the matter is, good solid instrument skills have taking a backdoor 'managing the FMS, managing systems' which is another word for 'we teach you how to use the autopilot, so you don't have to learn to fly by hand'
Get ready for a rash of incidents involving owner flown VLJs, simply because they will be relying on thier equipment vs thier skills to get them there safely.
Here in Oregon, I know of many corporate flight depts, where the boss makes the go no go, weather decision, simply because the guys they hired have about zero actual instrument experience, and they are in jets... Needless to say these flight depts fly about 150 hours per year, on nice days, and everyone is scared to fly with them...but the boss is saving money.
Going back to a Citation, where at school they teach that a pilot should use the auto pilot vs a nice thing to have.
I remember guys in the old days that flew new 210s ect, and couldn't wait to get a new auto pilot installed as that was how they could fly via instruments, let the plane do the work.
I go back to pre - EFIS, pre GPS, pre FMS, Pre-Flight Director, Pre - HSI, and flying by hand was just how it was done....sounds archaic now...but when all the those goodies came along, most of us flying in the soup honestly questioned why someone would need to drop $5k on an HSI, when vor needles worked just great.
I have seen flight depts scrub flights because the pilot couldn't work the Direct To function on the FMS. I know another flight dept, that put the plane down for three months upgrading from a GNSXL to UNS1, because the pilot thought the GNSXL was 'unsafe' and didn't do coupled approaches.
The point: It's a tragedy, when someone crashes a perfectly good aircraft, especialy a jet, but really tragic when that someone takes out someone that was counting on them for getting them from point a to b.
The fact of the matter is, good solid instrument skills have taking a backdoor 'managing the FMS, managing systems' which is another word for 'we teach you how to use the autopilot, so you don't have to learn to fly by hand'
Get ready for a rash of incidents involving owner flown VLJs, simply because they will be relying on thier equipment vs thier skills to get them there safely.
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ssg:
sounds like we think alike. I worked for one place that demanded I fly an NDB approach using the compass and turn/slip...no DG...no Horizon.
(that was for the checkride)
I recall one designated examiner who didn't want to give an instrument rating ride to someone in a mooney...those mooneys always had the "wing leveler" on unless you pressed a button. the examiner thought that was cheating...so do I for that matter. But the FAA said the plane was certified that way and he had to do the checkride..
As I mentioned before, I used to teach in silicon valley. too many people wanted the short cut way of learning to fly...use the gadgets and not your brain.
There is talk that this woman was a "seasoned pilot"...I don't see it. She had a pvt pilot single and multi instrument and types for the citation. Her friends said she treated the plane like others treat a car. Cars don't fly.
BFD.
I'm truly sorry for the loss of any person. But if you want to be a good, safe pilot, it takes time. And it takes wisdom to enforce limits to provide extra protection...especially to innocents in the plane and on the ground. Bad wx and night flying...maybe not. At least wait till daylight...you have a clue if you are upside down or not.
SSG, I think we think in a similiar fashion. Happy landings to you sir.
sounds like we think alike. I worked for one place that demanded I fly an NDB approach using the compass and turn/slip...no DG...no Horizon.
(that was for the checkride)
I recall one designated examiner who didn't want to give an instrument rating ride to someone in a mooney...those mooneys always had the "wing leveler" on unless you pressed a button. the examiner thought that was cheating...so do I for that matter. But the FAA said the plane was certified that way and he had to do the checkride..
As I mentioned before, I used to teach in silicon valley. too many people wanted the short cut way of learning to fly...use the gadgets and not your brain.
There is talk that this woman was a "seasoned pilot"...I don't see it. She had a pvt pilot single and multi instrument and types for the citation. Her friends said she treated the plane like others treat a car. Cars don't fly.
BFD.
I'm truly sorry for the loss of any person. But if you want to be a good, safe pilot, it takes time. And it takes wisdom to enforce limits to provide extra protection...especially to innocents in the plane and on the ground. Bad wx and night flying...maybe not. At least wait till daylight...you have a clue if you are upside down or not.
SSG, I think we think in a similiar fashion. Happy landings to you sir.
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This lady seems to have departed the a/p in a fashion that suggests someone had broadcast "Incoming" over the PA system... one has to wonder if the check-list was completed in the same cavalier fashion and whether the full systems anti-ice was selected on.
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Interesting discussion you have going. I got my IR in 1999/2000 and did it all with the basic stuff, no HSI, no autopilot no gps - nothing. Flew through ice and sleet in turbulence and total IMC. We did most training that way and by the time I was done I felt at ease with IMC, minimums and tuning everything the right way. Years after I still prefer tuning the radios to setting up the "FMS" of the G1000. Ok, so I fly simple planes by comparison, but flying the needles is my way out when I mess up with the GPS.
I think it's all in the training. If you train people to fly on FMS, GPS, coupled etc what chance will they have of doing an NDB on compass and T/B? What scares me the most is there are students fresh out of IR training that do their very first actual IMC on their checkride or even after that. They have zero experience of the soup which, I think you agree, is very different to being strapped into a sim in an airconditioned hangar. What kind of pilots are they putting out these days?
I think it's all in the training. If you train people to fly on FMS, GPS, coupled etc what chance will they have of doing an NDB on compass and T/B? What scares me the most is there are students fresh out of IR training that do their very first actual IMC on their checkride or even after that. They have zero experience of the soup which, I think you agree, is very different to being strapped into a sim in an airconditioned hangar. What kind of pilots are they putting out these days?
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Deice:
I appreciate your post. I got my IR about 20 years before you did.
Basic stuff. Then the big thing was VOR based RNAV systems. I got sharp with that and look where that stuff ended up...right next to an IBM 386 computer.
I am not impressed with the new crop of pilots. And not really impressed with the new kind of planes.
happy landings to you in sweden!
I appreciate your post. I got my IR about 20 years before you did.
Basic stuff. Then the big thing was VOR based RNAV systems. I got sharp with that and look where that stuff ended up...right next to an IBM 386 computer.
I am not impressed with the new crop of pilots. And not really impressed with the new kind of planes.
happy landings to you in sweden!
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Willy waving.
The art of seeking to top or outdo, outbrag or better each other. Example, "I got my (insert object/qualification/good/chattel here) before you did/quicker than you did/cheaper than you did".
In short, my dad's bigger than your dad
Given that we don't know what caused this unfortunate incident and its tragic conclusion I would have thought that the members of this forum might have refrained some of the comments posted thus far. "Perhaps....perhaps....perhaps..." and "This is pilot error" closely followed by "or possibly there was just something wrong with the aircraft" do their authors no credit.
The ease and rapidity with which the pilot has been condemned for being just a private pilot disappoints me. I can only hope that her family and friends have not found this thread.
The art of seeking to top or outdo, outbrag or better each other. Example, "I got my (insert object/qualification/good/chattel here) before you did/quicker than you did/cheaper than you did".
In short, my dad's bigger than your dad
Given that we don't know what caused this unfortunate incident and its tragic conclusion I would have thought that the members of this forum might have refrained some of the comments posted thus far. "Perhaps....perhaps....perhaps..." and "This is pilot error" closely followed by "or possibly there was just something wrong with the aircraft" do their authors no credit.
The ease and rapidity with which the pilot has been condemned for being just a private pilot disappoints me. I can only hope that her family and friends have not found this thread.
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Point taken - but I'm not trying to brag - I'm too much of an amateur for that but just want to point towards a training issue. There are enough schools out there that don't take their students into real IMC and I feel there's a problem. Based on my own experience during training and subsequent flights sitting in real IMC with minimums below really sharpens your senses - it's for real. I wouldn't want to be afraid of killing myself because I couldn't handle an NDB in actual IMC. I have friends that did their entire IR in a sim, save a few hours in VMC with foggles. First time they hit real IMC they were in for a surprise and it's not like they're comfortable with it.
But maybe that's bragging - ok, then I'll wave my willy...
But maybe that's bragging - ok, then I'll wave my willy...
