Citation down -- Augusta, Maine
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what is really bad about flying is that many people just try to seperate you from your money and not remind you that FLYING A PLANE IS DIFFICULT.
I've seen too many aircraft sales people try to make a sale rather than worry about the buyer killing themselves in a plane that is a bit too much.
willy waving? hardly. so far, I see that three people who actually have been in bad wx during their flight training were discussing the shortcomings of simply flying "under the hood".
I've seen too many aircraft sales people try to make a sale rather than worry about the buyer killing themselves in a plane that is a bit too much.
willy waving? hardly. so far, I see that three people who actually have been in bad wx during their flight training were discussing the shortcomings of simply flying "under the hood".
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we are going into deep waters,but the whole today's flight trainng's system is tunned that way-to give false self-confidence to people who are not ready to pay the price by at least giving some comon sense into the right direction-attitude..
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Let's not get carried away...it's the salsmans job to sell a/c.. it's the buyers responsibility to ensure that he/she gets adequate initial and recurrent training. From day one of our ppl flight training it's emphasised that we are to a large extent our own policeman... adhering to minima, operating within the paramaters laid down by the a/c manufacturer...etc etc.
By all accounts the pilot of the CJ1 had considerable experience of the aircraft... maybe the difference between her and professional crew is in the attitude to flying. For the professional, flying is THE primary factor in daily life... keeping it safe and giving attention and time to details is what helps keep it safe. A succesful business man or woman is using the a/c as a secondary factor to operating their business and it's possible that the priorities are less focused on the a/c operation... The term ' using the a/c as though it were a car ' sounds great, but it's easy under those circumstances for familiarity to breed contempt...
It's not impossible for this aspect to be present in the professional either... when flying with relatively inexperienced F/Os who think that because I have a bunch of hours everything will be fine I sometimes have to remind them that complacency is a killer and it's a good idea to take a couple of steps back now and again...
By all accounts the pilot of the CJ1 had considerable experience of the aircraft... maybe the difference between her and professional crew is in the attitude to flying. For the professional, flying is THE primary factor in daily life... keeping it safe and giving attention and time to details is what helps keep it safe. A succesful business man or woman is using the a/c as a secondary factor to operating their business and it's possible that the priorities are less focused on the a/c operation... The term ' using the a/c as though it were a car ' sounds great, but it's easy under those circumstances for familiarity to breed contempt...
It's not impossible for this aspect to be present in the professional either... when flying with relatively inexperienced F/Os who think that because I have a bunch of hours everything will be fine I sometimes have to remind them that complacency is a killer and it's a good idea to take a couple of steps back now and again...
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Interesting...
Flinty,
If your looking for a mutual back slapping session, where 'all of us are in this together', ....you know, a nice social gathering of pilots...Alaska is hiring, that's what they are looking for. Now let's get back to why some people can't fly with two gyros, when they had three to start off with...
I think, given the technology presented with in the last 20 years., it's simply a fact that pilots like Seven and myself are ones that remember when flying a plane 'raw data' was not an emergency procedure. That when one of three gyros on the plane crap out, it's not a 'Mayday' call.
It's just a fact. Personaly I know that when it comes to 'willy waiving'...someone else will always have more types, flying a bigger plane, have a bigger paycheck...and always more hours in this and that type.
Personaly I have always felt that that the gold standard for a pilot is to point to the C172 on the ramp, with old Narco 'coffee grinders' and just tell the guy if he can get over the moutains and back..in the winter, with icing....then he's got the job. I can teach him how an FMS works after that..or tapes, or the DME, ect....
Anyone can pay for a type, or learn read the book on the FMS...but can you fly without all the goodies?
It's not willy waiving...it's just a simple question...can you do it?
If your looking for a mutual back slapping session, where 'all of us are in this together', ....you know, a nice social gathering of pilots...Alaska is hiring, that's what they are looking for. Now let's get back to why some people can't fly with two gyros, when they had three to start off with...
I think, given the technology presented with in the last 20 years., it's simply a fact that pilots like Seven and myself are ones that remember when flying a plane 'raw data' was not an emergency procedure. That when one of three gyros on the plane crap out, it's not a 'Mayday' call.
It's just a fact. Personaly I know that when it comes to 'willy waiving'...someone else will always have more types, flying a bigger plane, have a bigger paycheck...and always more hours in this and that type.
Personaly I have always felt that that the gold standard for a pilot is to point to the C172 on the ramp, with old Narco 'coffee grinders' and just tell the guy if he can get over the moutains and back..in the winter, with icing....then he's got the job. I can teach him how an FMS works after that..or tapes, or the DME, ect....
Anyone can pay for a type, or learn read the book on the FMS...but can you fly without all the goodies?
It's not willy waiving...it's just a simple question...can you do it?
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AOPA to make donation to W. Gardiner Fire Dept
WEST GARDINER — The Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association will donate $2,500 to the West Gardiner Fire Department to help cover the costs to replace the department's emergency turn-out gear, much of which was permanently damaged by jet fuel while searching for victims in the Feb. 1 plane crash.
Jeanette Symons, 45, who died in the crash and was the jet's pilot, was a AOPA member, spokesman Chris Dancy said.
“Every pilot knows his or her life may well be in first responders’ hands if the worst happens,” said AOPA President Phil Boyer in a prepared statement.
“We truly appreciate the diligence of the West Gardiner volunteer firefighters and the respect they showed the pilot and her son, and we want to make sure they have the equipment they need the next time they have to roll out."
Jeanette Symons, 45, who died in the crash and was the jet's pilot, was a AOPA member, spokesman Chris Dancy said.
“Every pilot knows his or her life may well be in first responders’ hands if the worst happens,” said AOPA President Phil Boyer in a prepared statement.
“We truly appreciate the diligence of the West Gardiner volunteer firefighters and the respect they showed the pilot and her son, and we want to make sure they have the equipment they need the next time they have to roll out."
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Originally Posted by ssg
it's just a simple question...can you do it?
Originally Posted by ssg
it's simply a fact that pilots like Seven and myself are ones that remember when flying a plane 'raw data' was not an emergency procedure.
Originally Posted by ssg
If your looking for a mutual back slapping session
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failure to communicate
I'd like some whole wheat toast.
What we have here is a failure to communicate. The internet is subject to such problems.
No one is trying to hijack a thread that started because of the death of two human beings.
We are not bragging about our flying credentials or flying time. All the news articles suggest that the citation pilot was 'seasoned'. In this humble forum, we are just trying to tell you where we are coming from.
I think my point and the point of SSG is this: Gadgets don't make pilots. Pilots that depend on gadgets too much are likely to get let down.
There is alot to being a pilot. Shortcuts always seem to catch up with people one day or another.
PILOTS must respect the dangers of the sky and plan an "out" whenever they fly.
as an aside:
I was driving a rental car. brand new. The radio went out (quit, broke, whatever you call it). It took out the clock, the CD player and there wasn't a good reason apparent. I did some trouble shooting and found a glitch which didn't burn out the fuse and in the modern way of doing things, a reset was done and it started working. frozen electrons...digital stuff is like that.
the clock was seperate from the radio in older cars.
back to planes:
So too with modern planes. EFIS, put the gyro on the display...but if the EFIS goes down you lose more than one thing. Having seperate instruments was a concept that shouldn't have been thrown away so quickly.
IF your heading indicator is changing and the horizon shows level, something is wrong. Check the whiskey compass, check the other horizons. Be a pilot.
Become too dependent on the gadgets and you are asking for trouble.
What we have here is a failure to communicate. The internet is subject to such problems.
No one is trying to hijack a thread that started because of the death of two human beings.
We are not bragging about our flying credentials or flying time. All the news articles suggest that the citation pilot was 'seasoned'. In this humble forum, we are just trying to tell you where we are coming from.
I think my point and the point of SSG is this: Gadgets don't make pilots. Pilots that depend on gadgets too much are likely to get let down.
There is alot to being a pilot. Shortcuts always seem to catch up with people one day or another.
PILOTS must respect the dangers of the sky and plan an "out" whenever they fly.
as an aside:
I was driving a rental car. brand new. The radio went out (quit, broke, whatever you call it). It took out the clock, the CD player and there wasn't a good reason apparent. I did some trouble shooting and found a glitch which didn't burn out the fuse and in the modern way of doing things, a reset was done and it started working. frozen electrons...digital stuff is like that.
the clock was seperate from the radio in older cars.
back to planes:
So too with modern planes. EFIS, put the gyro on the display...but if the EFIS goes down you lose more than one thing. Having seperate instruments was a concept that shouldn't have been thrown away so quickly.
IF your heading indicator is changing and the horizon shows level, something is wrong. Check the whiskey compass, check the other horizons. Be a pilot.
Become too dependent on the gadgets and you are asking for trouble.
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BS ssg your entire posting history on this site consists of you telling anyone stupid enough to read one of your posts just how good you are. Thats you. You alone. Single crew. Did I mention alone?
From Munson through to Maine - the echo resounds. Too many people listened to folks like you over the last 30 years of single pilot jet ops. Doesn't matter how professional you are - it's absolutely immaterial because people take something else entirely from your words.
Anyone can click on your post above to check you out. Don't take my word for it people - get stuck in and read those posts from the first time our chum appeared on the site.
Rob
From Munson through to Maine - the echo resounds. Too many people listened to folks like you over the last 30 years of single pilot jet ops. Doesn't matter how professional you are - it's absolutely immaterial because people take something else entirely from your words.
Anyone can click on your post above to check you out. Don't take my word for it people - get stuck in and read those posts from the first time our chum appeared on the site.
Rob
Anyone who takes a 172 out in mountains, in icing is a fool and, if surviving, now works for an idiot.
GF
And I cut my teeth flying checks in a old Baron
Now I have reviewed page 3, waves willy mightily
GF
And I cut my teeth flying checks in a old Baron
Now I have reviewed page 3, waves willy mightily
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Let's get back on track, shall we?
Willy Waving...I'd never heard of that before this thread.
Speaking about our experiences in flying is now verbotten? HA!
Let's just get back to the concepts involved in preventing crashes.
Confusion.
Instrument interpretation.
Pilot Training.
Emergency Procedures.
Speaking about our experiences in flying is now verbotten? HA!
Let's just get back to the concepts involved in preventing crashes.
Confusion.
Instrument interpretation.
Pilot Training.
Emergency Procedures.
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galaxy flyer
how about cherokee arrow flying IMC mountains at night (with bank checks of course)? Icing and the controllers on strike? Granted its not a 172.
I wouldn't call that foolish so much as " a great seasoning process".
Lindy had ice on his wings carrying the mail and over the atlantic.
how about cherokee arrow flying IMC mountains at night (with bank checks of course)? Icing and the controllers on strike? Granted its not a 172.
I wouldn't call that foolish so much as " a great seasoning process".
Lindy had ice on his wings carrying the mail and over the atlantic.
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Lindy had ice on his wings carrying the mail and over the atlantic.
And ice on wings has been kiling people ever since. Just because it happened in the old days doesn't mean that anyone who didn't have to experience it is any less of a pilot. I know that a stall at low level will possibly kill me but I don't need to have it proven.
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In the absence of first hand information (as opposed to a newspaper 'quote' of ground crew saying the aircraft seemed to have trouble gaining altitude
) I'd rather wait for a report from those who do have access to the appropriate data and evidence. If we relied upon what's been posted here for a conclusion we would struggle to agree on how many pitots the aircraft had let alone reach any meaningful conclusion.
Frankly I'm surprised that any aviation professional would ask for a "guess" let alone postulate in a public forum what may or may not have happened.
) I'd rather wait for a report from those who do have access to the appropriate data and evidence. If we relied upon what's been posted here for a conclusion we would struggle to agree on how many pitots the aircraft had let alone reach any meaningful conclusion.Frankly I'm surprised that any aviation professional would ask for a "guess" let alone postulate in a public forum what may or may not have happened.
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flintstone
perhaps you didn't read the NTSB prelim report. Plane made it to 3000'msl...emergency, problems with attitude gyro etc.
I can't see how a pilot, reading about this accident COULDN'T come up with some thoughts on this subject.
AS a pilot, one must always consider what could go wrong, to avoid it. Or get out of the situation.
Or perhaps you don't think that way?
For example, if you were night IMC and thought the gyros went bad, what would you do?
I'll be glad to answer if you do. In fact, I'll go ahead and post what I might have done.
Initial shock, disbelief...I try to fly "in trim" at all times, so I would let go of the controls for a second, as I might make things worse by "doing something''. I would cross check all instruments to gain a direct and an indirect sense of the plane's attitude/bank angle etc.
if the heading wasn't changing, I would think the wings were level or near level. I would cross check attitude gyros to see which were close to level.
I would also continue to climb, declaring an emergency to continue climbing (see AIM) until above clouds, in the clear...then I would sort things out a bit further, covering up the bad gyro/display. I wouldn't change engine thrust, and I would verify the pitot heat was on...I might also check the air speed with radar ground speed (atc).
what would you do flintstone?
perhaps you didn't read the NTSB prelim report. Plane made it to 3000'msl...emergency, problems with attitude gyro etc.
I can't see how a pilot, reading about this accident COULDN'T come up with some thoughts on this subject.
AS a pilot, one must always consider what could go wrong, to avoid it. Or get out of the situation.
Or perhaps you don't think that way?
For example, if you were night IMC and thought the gyros went bad, what would you do?
I'll be glad to answer if you do. In fact, I'll go ahead and post what I might have done.
Initial shock, disbelief...I try to fly "in trim" at all times, so I would let go of the controls for a second, as I might make things worse by "doing something''. I would cross check all instruments to gain a direct and an indirect sense of the plane's attitude/bank angle etc.
if the heading wasn't changing, I would think the wings were level or near level. I would cross check attitude gyros to see which were close to level.
I would also continue to climb, declaring an emergency to continue climbing (see AIM) until above clouds, in the clear...then I would sort things out a bit further, covering up the bad gyro/display. I wouldn't change engine thrust, and I would verify the pitot heat was on...I might also check the air speed with radar ground speed (atc).
what would you do flintstone?
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Errr, thanks for the flying lesson. Yes, I saw the report but that's preliminary.
I'd do what I did when my (single) gyro failed back in the old days on the Cessna 210 on take-off, at night, in the middle of the wet season with no autopilot, weather radar or GPS (damn, I promised my self I wasn't going to get dragged in to telling war stories). I'd revert to the standby instruments. Today? I'd do the same with the luxury of some extras.
Why the interest in my decision? I've already made it clear that I've no interest in discussing this pilots demise until the jury is in.
I'd do what I did when my (single) gyro failed back in the old days on the Cessna 210 on take-off, at night, in the middle of the wet season with no autopilot, weather radar or GPS (damn, I promised my self I wasn't going to get dragged in to telling war stories). I'd revert to the standby instruments. Today? I'd do the same with the luxury of some extras.
Why the interest in my decision? I've already made it clear that I've no interest in discussing this pilots demise until the jury is in.
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picmas
if the ntsb comes up with something off the wall, I'd learn from it, wouldn't you?
but the ntsb has come up with at least one report that I will always disagree with. (aa at jfk, airbus 300 rudder)
untested assumptions flintstone? whenever I hear of a single private pilot, in instrument conditions, at night, in a twin engine plane of any sort... you look at so many well healed people who treat their plane like a car...well it adds up to one conclusion. but you want to wait for the report...see you back in about a year.
now don't get me wrong. I'm not pointing fingers at a tragic figure. I'm pointing fingers at an aviation system that doesn't demand higher training standards. and especially higher standards for single pilot jets. with a flock of very light jets coming, aren't you concerned about safety?
if the ntsb comes up with something off the wall, I'd learn from it, wouldn't you?
but the ntsb has come up with at least one report that I will always disagree with. (aa at jfk, airbus 300 rudder)
untested assumptions flintstone? whenever I hear of a single private pilot, in instrument conditions, at night, in a twin engine plane of any sort... you look at so many well healed people who treat their plane like a car...well it adds up to one conclusion. but you want to wait for the report...see you back in about a year.
now don't get me wrong. I'm not pointing fingers at a tragic figure. I'm pointing fingers at an aviation system that doesn't demand higher training standards. and especially higher standards for single pilot jets. with a flock of very light jets coming, aren't you concerned about safety?