Citation down -- Augusta, Maine
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the citation can be flown SP, or single pilot. if properly equipped and pilot is certified...and it seems that this pilot was.
I hope this forum follows this story. I hope someone starts a thread on the king air crash in north carolina too.
owner operated high performance aircraft.
I hope this forum follows this story. I hope someone starts a thread on the king air crash in north carolina too.
owner operated high performance aircraft.
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tech data on C525
Cessna Citation CJ1
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Cessna 525 CitationJet
The Cessna Citation CJ1 (Model 525) is the first and smallest of the CJ series of Cessna aircraft. It was developed as an improved version of the original Cessna CitationJet (also Model 525). It borrows much of the forward fuselage from the Cessna Citation I (Model 500).[1] The CJ1 improved on the CitationJet by adding the Collins Pro Line 21 EFIS avionics suite and a moderate increase in maximum takeoff. The CJ1 has a newer cousin, the CJ1+ which shares the same airframe but has an additional updated avionics package and FADEC, to allow the engines to be controlled by computer rather than mechanical controls.
[edit] Specifications for CJ1+
Data from http://cj1plus.cessna.com/specifications.chtml
General characteristics
* Crew: 1
* Capacity: 5 passengers
* Payload: 615 lb (279 kg)
* Length: 42 ft 7 in (12.98 m)
* Wingspan: 46 ft 11 in (14.30 m)
* Height: (4.19 m)
* Empty weight: 6,765 lb (3,069 kg)
* Useful load: 3,835 lb (1,740 kg)
* Max takeoff weight: 10,700 lb (4,853 kg)
* Powerplant: 2Ĩ Williams FJ44-1AP turbofan, 1,965 lb (8.74 kN) each
Performance
* Cruise speed: 389 ktas (720 km/h)
* Stall speed: 83 kcas (153 km/h)
* Range: 1,300 nm (2,408 km)
* Service ceiling 41,000 ft (12,497 m)
* Rate of climb: 3,290 fpm (1,003 m/min)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Cessna 525 CitationJet
The Cessna Citation CJ1 (Model 525) is the first and smallest of the CJ series of Cessna aircraft. It was developed as an improved version of the original Cessna CitationJet (also Model 525). It borrows much of the forward fuselage from the Cessna Citation I (Model 500).[1] The CJ1 improved on the CitationJet by adding the Collins Pro Line 21 EFIS avionics suite and a moderate increase in maximum takeoff. The CJ1 has a newer cousin, the CJ1+ which shares the same airframe but has an additional updated avionics package and FADEC, to allow the engines to be controlled by computer rather than mechanical controls.
[edit] Specifications for CJ1+
Data from http://cj1plus.cessna.com/specifications.chtml
General characteristics
* Crew: 1
* Capacity: 5 passengers
* Payload: 615 lb (279 kg)
* Length: 42 ft 7 in (12.98 m)
* Wingspan: 46 ft 11 in (14.30 m)
* Height: (4.19 m)
* Empty weight: 6,765 lb (3,069 kg)
* Useful load: 3,835 lb (1,740 kg)
* Max takeoff weight: 10,700 lb (4,853 kg)
* Powerplant: 2Ĩ Williams FJ44-1AP turbofan, 1,965 lb (8.74 kN) each
Performance
* Cruise speed: 389 ktas (720 km/h)
* Stall speed: 83 kcas (153 km/h)
* Range: 1,300 nm (2,408 km)
* Service ceiling 41,000 ft (12,497 m)
* Rate of climb: 3,290 fpm (1,003 m/min)
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Sad story.
Ms. Symons should have been convinced to go for deicing by a truly conscientious ramper. Not blaming the ground people for this though. I was one myself thirty odd years ago.
The fact that her son was with her rules out suicide, doesn't it?
The fact that her son was with her rules out suicide, doesn't it?
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First: if she got to 3000', de-icing wasn't a factor. She could easily have made altitude from 3000', in a jet, with a load of ice, unless some OTHER factor took effect (such as a malfunctioning ADI). Let's rid ourselves of Red Herrings, such as anti-female bias, anti-single pilot bias, etc.
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bman0429
the pitot doesn't work the attitude indicator...but as most pilots know, the airspeed, if not consistant with the attitude indicator (artificial horizon) may cause a pilot to become confused and distrustful of an instrument.
aeronautical history is full of accidents like the above scenario...I recall a 727 and someone else has recalled the 757 crash.
and wouldn't we use the term: ALTIMETER and not altitude indicator?
The first question I have for the NTSB is: what position was the pitot heater switch in?
Someone also mentioned bias against single pilot operations. Well, I am in favor of two pilot operations. So call me biased. As to female pilots vs. male pilots...I've seen good male pilots and good female pilots...I"ve also seen rotten female pilots and rotten male pilots...
I've even seen what happens to an airspeed indicator that is being fed by an iced over pitot tube. And had to explain to the other pilot what was wrong.
the pitot doesn't work the attitude indicator...but as most pilots know, the airspeed, if not consistant with the attitude indicator (artificial horizon) may cause a pilot to become confused and distrustful of an instrument.
aeronautical history is full of accidents like the above scenario...I recall a 727 and someone else has recalled the 757 crash.
and wouldn't we use the term: ALTIMETER and not altitude indicator?
The first question I have for the NTSB is: what position was the pitot heater switch in?
Someone also mentioned bias against single pilot operations. Well, I am in favor of two pilot operations. So call me biased. As to female pilots vs. male pilots...I've seen good male pilots and good female pilots...I"ve also seen rotten female pilots and rotten male pilots...
I've even seen what happens to an airspeed indicator that is being fed by an iced over pitot tube. And had to explain to the other pilot what was wrong.
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sevenstrokeroll
the pitot doesn't work the attitude indicator.Agreed on the first point. The previous post refered to a blocked pitot static system affecting the attitude indicator.
..but as most pilots know, the airspeed, if not consistant with the attitude indicator (artificial horizon) may cause a pilot to become confused and distrustful of an instrument.That maybe true, but are we not trained to recognize which instrument is giving us bad information?
aeronautical history is full of accidents like the above scenario...I recall a 727 and someone else has recalled the 757 crashAgain I agree, but most of them were completely preventable by crew action. which is why we view these case studies and train accordingly
and wouldn't we use the term: ALTIMETER and not altitude indicator
for the record I was refering to the previous post as maybe making a small typo "attitude indicator" as it appeared he was referencing an , ahem Altimeter. Potato/Potatoe
As for the accident it was a horrible thing that someone who obviously enjoyed the same feelings that we all do lost her life and that of her son doing what we all love. Some good may come from it if we try and thoroughly understand what happened and encourage those in our field who aren't in our Profession to try and maintain Professional level standards. ( Not that all do, but all should). We are constantly learning constantly training because complacancy kills!
Bman
the pitot doesn't work the attitude indicator.Agreed on the first point. The previous post refered to a blocked pitot static system affecting the attitude indicator.
..but as most pilots know, the airspeed, if not consistant with the attitude indicator (artificial horizon) may cause a pilot to become confused and distrustful of an instrument.That maybe true, but are we not trained to recognize which instrument is giving us bad information?
aeronautical history is full of accidents like the above scenario...I recall a 727 and someone else has recalled the 757 crashAgain I agree, but most of them were completely preventable by crew action. which is why we view these case studies and train accordingly
and wouldn't we use the term: ALTIMETER and not altitude indicator
for the record I was refering to the previous post as maybe making a small typo "attitude indicator" as it appeared he was referencing an , ahem Altimeter. Potato/Potatoe
As for the accident it was a horrible thing that someone who obviously enjoyed the same feelings that we all do lost her life and that of her son doing what we all love. Some good may come from it if we try and thoroughly understand what happened and encourage those in our field who aren't in our Profession to try and maintain Professional level standards. ( Not that all do, but all should). We are constantly learning constantly training because complacancy kills!
Bman
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bman
I couldn't find the previous post to which you refer...call it cyberspacewarp.
and yes, we are trained to spot such problems...but we are also trained to avoid taxiing into ditches prior to takeoff.
training is great, but that doesn't mean people don't make mistakes.
now, if all three attitude instruments were wrong...we have something...but if two out of three agree, you have to analyze and make a decision...and if you have time to radio about the problem, maybe you didn't use all your brain on the problem...
now don't get me wrong...this is a tragedy. but I've seen how silicon valley types become pilots and it concerns me greatly. I taught flying in the 80's in silicon valley at KPAO among others.
just because you are trained in something doesn't mean you will do the right thing in flight.
and again, I couldn't find the "previous post" to which you refer...sometimes they are deleted, or I just missed it.
I couldn't find the previous post to which you refer...call it cyberspacewarp.
and yes, we are trained to spot such problems...but we are also trained to avoid taxiing into ditches prior to takeoff.
training is great, but that doesn't mean people don't make mistakes.
now, if all three attitude instruments were wrong...we have something...but if two out of three agree, you have to analyze and make a decision...and if you have time to radio about the problem, maybe you didn't use all your brain on the problem...
now don't get me wrong...this is a tragedy. but I've seen how silicon valley types become pilots and it concerns me greatly. I taught flying in the 80's in silicon valley at KPAO among others.
just because you are trained in something doesn't mean you will do the right thing in flight.
and again, I couldn't find the "previous post" to which you refer...sometimes they are deleted, or I just missed it.
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Citation down -- Augusta, Maine
Just because she was at 3000' does not preclude icing problems. Freezing rain aloft(often with ice pellets at surface) can be catastrophic, especially to a bleed-air rubber inflatable leading edge. I flew a citation in that corner of the world for many years, and it can be full of god-awful weather and operational challenges. There is something to be said for the justification for 2 pilots on high performance aircraft!
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Before you get too enthusiastic about pitot-static failure as a contributory cause, I should point out that the CJ has a nice yellow warning light for the pitot static system. Since the CJ annunciator system philosphy is "dark is good", most departures have a completely blank annunciator panel. The standout presence of the yellow lights makes it unlikely that you would not notice that you had forgotten the pitot heat.
And for completeness, the system has a combination of current and temperature sensors which also illuminate the warning if the system fails in flight.
And for completeness, the system has a combination of current and temperature sensors which also illuminate the warning if the system fails in flight.
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ok I will say it...
Some Points at the risk of pissing everyone off...
- Owner flown jets have the worst accident rates in the industry, and I personaly don't want to be lumped in with them when people talk about another Citation captain augering in. Simply put, you don't build a business and have time to somehow build up 10,000 hours at the same time, sorry, not doable. Simuflite has a perfect moniker for the biz owner that comes in wanting to fly his new CJ...'I have a jet, therefor I must be a jet pilot'. It's not to say that some 'pros' can't fly either, but for those biz guys in here reading this, you and I both know a few CEOs that are pilots and have made the point of hiring a pilot, simply for the reason that flying a jet is for the most part a full time thing. If your sharp, fine, but how many are, and how many have solid IFR skills that never did it for a living.
I am not here to rip on the biz owner pilots, nor a future generation of Mustang and Eclipse pilots. But if you really think your going to go fly to Aspen this weekend, blowing snow, with a thousand hours of P51 time in a C172, the only people your pulling one over on is your family, because they are coming with you to the flight's inevitable conclusion.
- Anyone in here that has actualy been in a piston single, with a couple of inches of ice, vs a light twin, vs a turboprop, vs a jet, will immediately understand that if icing took the Citation down, it wasn't the Citation's fault.
- For those that think an attitude indicator out on a jet is an Emergency Procedure item, forgot to notice the other one on the right side, the peanut gyro in the Center, and for those with EFIS, the one in the MFD as well.
IF this lady declared MAYDAY because of an attitude indicator, she was way behind the power curve and way inexperienced to be sitting in that plane. Sorry, but that's just a fact.
- And no, a Pitot tube doesn't affect the Attitude indicator....
, the Citation has three pitot tubes, by the way...
- Let's all remember that a Citation 500 series, can be flown Single pilot either if it's certified single pilot like the CJs or the 501SPs and 550SPs....a type is all they need. To fly the Encores, Ultras, Vs, you need the Single Pilot Exemption, and none of the Exemptors have crashed a plane yet, except my friend at Cable, Ca. and he was a biz owner, and he lost his wife over it.....and I helped train him...
He chose to fly into a 3500 ft home field, full of fuel, with a 12 kt tail wind at night, and land on the last third of the runway, too fast....and instead of going around, he didn't, then tried to go around too late...
So why did he do that? Because he is a used to getting away with crap, because he's a biz owner, his ego was bigger then his experience, and he saw me land there, over and over and over, and make it look easy...He couldn't buy jet fuel at Cable, so he decided to tanker it from San Diego and come in heavy to a short field, hot, landing long and not knowing when to go around.
He didn't have the experience to know what he could do or not do, what he could get away with, what the limits were, what was too much or too little, ect ect...
One learns that through experience, and herin lies the problem in people buying thier way into a jet, vs earning it...It's no different then giving your kid a Ferrari for his 16th birthday....
So the next time your sitting next to a guy in a plane and he's sipping coffee, threading his way through thunderstorms, with the radar, making jokes, or makes that 3000 ft landing looking easy....
It isn't, he just has the experience to make it look easy....and sorry, no matter how much money you got, you can't buy the experience, you can't train enough, you can't spend enough time on your days off to fly like the pros, nor will you have the balls to fly down to zero zero to try it out...he has to take a look, it's part of his job, you won't...so he will get the experience, experience that you can neither buy nor have the gumption to go get....
So a few hours around the patch with the local CFII for your instrument reccurrent won't buy you a ticket into the jets....
So hire a guy, you can be the 'captain' in the left seat, wiggle the controls, feel like the pilot you always wanted to be, tell your friends you 'fly your own jet' and your pilot will be there to grab the controls when the SHTF.
- Owner flown jets have the worst accident rates in the industry, and I personaly don't want to be lumped in with them when people talk about another Citation captain augering in. Simply put, you don't build a business and have time to somehow build up 10,000 hours at the same time, sorry, not doable. Simuflite has a perfect moniker for the biz owner that comes in wanting to fly his new CJ...'I have a jet, therefor I must be a jet pilot'. It's not to say that some 'pros' can't fly either, but for those biz guys in here reading this, you and I both know a few CEOs that are pilots and have made the point of hiring a pilot, simply for the reason that flying a jet is for the most part a full time thing. If your sharp, fine, but how many are, and how many have solid IFR skills that never did it for a living.
I am not here to rip on the biz owner pilots, nor a future generation of Mustang and Eclipse pilots. But if you really think your going to go fly to Aspen this weekend, blowing snow, with a thousand hours of P51 time in a C172, the only people your pulling one over on is your family, because they are coming with you to the flight's inevitable conclusion.
- Anyone in here that has actualy been in a piston single, with a couple of inches of ice, vs a light twin, vs a turboprop, vs a jet, will immediately understand that if icing took the Citation down, it wasn't the Citation's fault.
- For those that think an attitude indicator out on a jet is an Emergency Procedure item, forgot to notice the other one on the right side, the peanut gyro in the Center, and for those with EFIS, the one in the MFD as well.
IF this lady declared MAYDAY because of an attitude indicator, she was way behind the power curve and way inexperienced to be sitting in that plane. Sorry, but that's just a fact.
- And no, a Pitot tube doesn't affect the Attitude indicator....
, the Citation has three pitot tubes, by the way...- Let's all remember that a Citation 500 series, can be flown Single pilot either if it's certified single pilot like the CJs or the 501SPs and 550SPs....a type is all they need. To fly the Encores, Ultras, Vs, you need the Single Pilot Exemption, and none of the Exemptors have crashed a plane yet, except my friend at Cable, Ca. and he was a biz owner, and he lost his wife over it.....and I helped train him...
He chose to fly into a 3500 ft home field, full of fuel, with a 12 kt tail wind at night, and land on the last third of the runway, too fast....and instead of going around, he didn't, then tried to go around too late...
So why did he do that? Because he is a used to getting away with crap, because he's a biz owner, his ego was bigger then his experience, and he saw me land there, over and over and over, and make it look easy...He couldn't buy jet fuel at Cable, so he decided to tanker it from San Diego and come in heavy to a short field, hot, landing long and not knowing when to go around.
He didn't have the experience to know what he could do or not do, what he could get away with, what the limits were, what was too much or too little, ect ect...
One learns that through experience, and herin lies the problem in people buying thier way into a jet, vs earning it...It's no different then giving your kid a Ferrari for his 16th birthday....
So the next time your sitting next to a guy in a plane and he's sipping coffee, threading his way through thunderstorms, with the radar, making jokes, or makes that 3000 ft landing looking easy....
It isn't, he just has the experience to make it look easy....and sorry, no matter how much money you got, you can't buy the experience, you can't train enough, you can't spend enough time on your days off to fly like the pros, nor will you have the balls to fly down to zero zero to try it out...he has to take a look, it's part of his job, you won't...so he will get the experience, experience that you can neither buy nor have the gumption to go get....
So a few hours around the patch with the local CFII for your instrument reccurrent won't buy you a ticket into the jets....
So hire a guy, you can be the 'captain' in the left seat, wiggle the controls, feel like the pilot you always wanted to be, tell your friends you 'fly your own jet' and your pilot will be there to grab the controls when the SHTF.
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A failed AI brought down a Boeing 747 Cargo out of London Stanstead a few years ago........despite backup and despite several "professional" crew onboard.
If the wings had been iced up on take off, she'd never have got to 3000' and probably wouldn't have got off the runway in one piece.
If the wings had been iced up on take off, she'd never have got to 3000' and probably wouldn't have got off the runway in one piece.
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Instead of heading west on a taxiway to the runway, she cut across a field
and drove the plane through a ditch, blasting her engines to get through the
depression, said Perry, who heard the story from his workers.
and drove the plane through a ditch, blasting her engines to get through the
depression, said Perry, who heard the story from his workers.
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CJdriver
thanks for telling us about the cj annuciator.
who knows, there might be a bizare situation in cj's that wouldn't show a failure?
I remember on jet I flew, you could get the annuciator light to go out but the pitot wasn't heated.
I tend to agree that owner operators are just a fancy term for doctor/bonanza pilots.
I do want to know what brought this lady and her child down. Sadly, my first feeling is pilot error. And if you have time to radio for help,crash the plane, then you didn't fly the plane first.
thanks for telling us about the cj annuciator.
who knows, there might be a bizare situation in cj's that wouldn't show a failure?
I remember on jet I flew, you could get the annuciator light to go out but the pitot wasn't heated.
I tend to agree that owner operators are just a fancy term for doctor/bonanza pilots.
I do want to know what brought this lady and her child down. Sadly, my first feeling is pilot error. And if you have time to radio for help,crash the plane, then you didn't fly the plane first.
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Let's look at the idea that the plane's anti/deice system was overwelmed by conditions...even similiar to the ATR 72 over Indiana that crashed.
If the plane was on autopilot, and assumed an unusual attitude of some sort in an effort to achieve commanded instructions (speed, climb rate or whatever)...the pilot might have thought something was wrong with the instrument, having never seen this situation before.
I understand the wing is more laminar flow than previous small citations. I couldn't find out what the anti ice system is, except for boots on the horizontal stabilizer.
can you imagine the autopilot pulling the plane into a stall, then holding it there while the thing spun in?
always in icing conditions in any plane, a hand on the stick might tell you more about how the plane is flying than anything else.
If the plane was on autopilot, and assumed an unusual attitude of some sort in an effort to achieve commanded instructions (speed, climb rate or whatever)...the pilot might have thought something was wrong with the instrument, having never seen this situation before.
I understand the wing is more laminar flow than previous small citations. I couldn't find out what the anti ice system is, except for boots on the horizontal stabilizer.
can you imagine the autopilot pulling the plane into a stall, then holding it there while the thing spun in?
always in icing conditions in any plane, a hand on the stick might tell you more about how the plane is flying than anything else.
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Not sure if I agree...
...with the temperate monitoring of the probes...
FlightSafety says that the current is monitored. They donīt mention temperature. At least not in the CJ1 manual...
The walkaround wants you to switch pitot/static heat on and feel for heat - would not be necessary if temperature would actually feed into the system.
Wing has bleedair antiiced leading edges. Tail boots are actuated by a timer (AUTO) or manually (MANUAL switch position)
AUTO will inflate one boot for 6 seconds, allow deflation for 6 secs and inflate the other side for 6 secs, this cycle is repeated after 3 minutes.
MANUAL inflates both boots as long as held in Manual (springloaded)
21psi service bleed air is used, should less than 16 psi enter the boots, the fail light illuminates (1 for each side)
In case of electrical failure, tail deice is INOP, versus wing antiice, bleed valves fail open.
FlightSafety says that the current is monitored. They donīt mention temperature. At least not in the CJ1 manual...
The walkaround wants you to switch pitot/static heat on and feel for heat - would not be necessary if temperature would actually feed into the system.
Wing has bleedair antiiced leading edges. Tail boots are actuated by a timer (AUTO) or manually (MANUAL switch position)
AUTO will inflate one boot for 6 seconds, allow deflation for 6 secs and inflate the other side for 6 secs, this cycle is repeated after 3 minutes.
MANUAL inflates both boots as long as held in Manual (springloaded)
21psi service bleed air is used, should less than 16 psi enter the boots, the fail light illuminates (1 for each side)
In case of electrical failure, tail deice is INOP, versus wing antiice, bleed valves fail open.