Citation down -- Augusta, Maine
SSR
Flying checks in an Arrow? Not seasoning, bloody suicide, more like it. I thought it risky in a Baron with boots. Unless the mountains are in IL. And just surviving and saying Lindy did it, doesn't make your actions right or smart. Those forebears that were lost proving how not to fly airplanes would consider it a real insult, if we learned nothing from their sacrifice. "Good seasoning" is a way of justifying stupidity OR justifying dirt pay for inexperienced pilots.
GF
I'll wait for the report but don't expect anything other than some brand of pilot inexperience, incompetence and haste.
Flying checks in an Arrow? Not seasoning, bloody suicide, more like it. I thought it risky in a Baron with boots. Unless the mountains are in IL. And just surviving and saying Lindy did it, doesn't make your actions right or smart. Those forebears that were lost proving how not to fly airplanes would consider it a real insult, if we learned nothing from their sacrifice. "Good seasoning" is a way of justifying stupidity OR justifying dirt pay for inexperienced pilots.
GF
I'll wait for the report but don't expect anything other than some brand of pilot inexperience, incompetence and haste.
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GF
the mountains weren't in Illinois. There aren't any mountains in illinois...
try california.
and icing pireps weren't available, and our POI said, no reports, no icing until YOU report it.
but that was many moon ago. and yes, it was dirt pay and since it was during the ATC strike, it was one of the few pilot jobs around. it wasn't like now a days, with 600 hours you get to be a jet copilot now. Then , you needed an ATP to get a dirty ****ty flying job.
the mountains weren't in Illinois. There aren't any mountains in illinois...
try california.
and icing pireps weren't available, and our POI said, no reports, no icing until YOU report it.
but that was many moon ago. and yes, it was dirt pay and since it was during the ATC strike, it was one of the few pilot jobs around. it wasn't like now a days, with 600 hours you get to be a jet copilot now. Then , you needed an ATP to get a dirty ****ty flying job.
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I can't respond to something that I don't understand
eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee ?
maybe its a British thing.
if you meant sleeping, we use: zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz in the country that invented the airplane.
and to GF
its amazing how outdated rules (physical possesion of bank checks) gave us jobs flying. And how electronic methods have thrown that branch of flying out.
eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee ?
maybe its a British thing.
if you meant sleeping, we use: zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz in the country that invented the airplane.
and to GF
its amazing how outdated rules (physical possesion of bank checks) gave us jobs flying. And how electronic methods have thrown that branch of flying out.
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Try this then http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1a1wHxTyo
Psst! I think Otto Lilienthal might have something to say about your claim to have invented the aeroplane.
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"Puhleeze" what? Puhleeze don't remind you that the Wrights weren't first? Ok, I won't. I'll just sit here and not mention that someone other than an American flew first. My lips are sealed. I won't mention Lilienthal's flights at all. No. Not me. I won't write anything about the Wrights being some way behind him if it embarrasses you. Nothing. Nada. Zip. Shhhh, not a thing.
Wasn't there a German who achieved the first take-off under power without a ramp? Ooops, sorry. I shouldn't have said that should I? I'll just sit over here all quiet like and say nuffin. Not even about Ott.................., ooops. Nearly did it again. Best I go find something else to do before I upset someone's sensibilities.
Wasn't there a German who achieved the first take-off under power without a ramp? Ooops, sorry. I shouldn't have said that should I? I'll just sit over here all quiet like and say nuffin. Not even about Ott.................., ooops. Nearly did it again. Best I go find something else to do before I upset someone's sensibilities.
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Sevenstrokeroll probably has the luxury of pausing his simulator!.
As someone who knew this pilot, is himself a FAA designated pilot examiner and fully aware of the content and completion standards of her training at a well known company at which I was once employed, I would not even speculate as to what happened in this tragic accident. The NTSB will find the cause in the end and I suspect there will be many posters on this thread with egg on their face.
Lets just wait folks then look at how we can prevent this from happening again or otherwise.
KW
As someone who knew this pilot, is himself a FAA designated pilot examiner and fully aware of the content and completion standards of her training at a well known company at which I was once employed, I would not even speculate as to what happened in this tragic accident. The NTSB will find the cause in the end and I suspect there will be many posters on this thread with egg on their face.
Lets just wait folks then look at how we can prevent this from happening again or otherwise.
KW
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flintstone:
controlled powered flight = airplane
uncontrolled powered flight = steps toward an airplane
controlled unpowered flight = glider or sailplane
and to you KW
IM, or send a private message if you would like to talk flying. Real Flying.
I don't have a flight simulator program. And no one is putting a negative spin on a person, so don't get huffy.
controlled powered flight = airplane
uncontrolled powered flight = steps toward an airplane
controlled unpowered flight = glider or sailplane
and to you KW
IM, or send a private message if you would like to talk flying. Real Flying.
I don't have a flight simulator program. And no one is putting a negative spin on a person, so don't get huffy.
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SSR:
Ok, but you posted the following which does not exactly contribute to a positive spin on things...
I am not trying to pick a fight with you. But allow me to say this, you attitude (as I subjectively judge it from your postings) seems a bit arrogant.
My point being, that you are posting in a forum for businessjet pilots, holders of professional qualifications, yet you continue to lecture on how to cope with various challenges - What are you trying to prove? That you know and that your colleagues don't?!?
The lectures about trusting instruments and construction and installation of various equipment in various aircrafts are correct, but aren't you preaching to the choir??
You got me sucked into this now, and I am curious, do you mind me asking; what is your claim to fame ie. what sort of equipment do you operate and which type of operation. My first guess would be that you are an FAA CFI/II and that you are hauling said checks in a single engine. But I stand to be corrected. Again, this is not to put you down or to pick a fight...
Regards,
MAS
F/O LR60
And no one is putting a negative spin on a person, so don't get huffy.
But the mindset of this person was not the mindset of a pilot for any plane, let alone a nice little , well equipped jet.
While it is unlikely we will ever know, I wonder if this person was on any form of anti depressent medication or the like?
While it is unlikely we will ever know, I wonder if this person was on any form of anti depressent medication or the like?
There is talk that this woman was a "seasoned pilot"...I don't see it.
after reading this report I believe that there was confusion in the mind of the pilot...even before takeoff.
illness? medications? emotional stress? whatever.
a modern jet with three gyros would rarely if ever lose all the gyros simultaneously. it is the pilot's responsibility to interpret all information including heading change to understand what the horizion/gyro is telling you.
vertigo? trust your instruments?
illness? medications? emotional stress? whatever.
a modern jet with three gyros would rarely if ever lose all the gyros simultaneously. it is the pilot's responsibility to interpret all information including heading change to understand what the horizion/gyro is telling you.
vertigo? trust your instruments?
My point being, that you are posting in a forum for businessjet pilots, holders of professional qualifications, yet you continue to lecture on how to cope with various challenges - What are you trying to prove? That you know and that your colleagues don't?!?
The lectures about trusting instruments and construction and installation of various equipment in various aircrafts are correct, but aren't you preaching to the choir??
You got me sucked into this now, and I am curious, do you mind me asking; what is your claim to fame ie. what sort of equipment do you operate and which type of operation. My first guess would be that you are an FAA CFI/II and that you are hauling said checks in a single engine. But I stand to be corrected. Again, this is not to put you down or to pick a fight...
Regards,
MAS
F/O LR60
Last edited by PicMas; 22nd Feb 2008 at 19:36. Reason: Engrish language
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Originally Posted by sevenstrokeroll
flintstone:
controlled powered flight = airplane
controlled powered flight = airplane
What on Earth are you babbling about with:
uncontrolled powered flight = steps toward an airplane
Last edited by Flintstone; 22nd Feb 2008 at 21:02.
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Sevenstrokeroll,
Suggest you read the message from PicMas and engage brain before opening mouth or putting words on this thread. You have no idea what the skill level is of pilots on an anonymous forum so you must accept the criticism when it is fired at you, there are always others far more experienced than you (or me for that matter and i've only been flying for 34 years including 22 years in the military) so a modicum of thought and care needs to be taken before making statements that just make folks irate with you.
As for a PM, you can forget it, I am not going to get into a pissing contest with you because I too am suspect of your level of expertise having read some of your previous posts. As someone who flies VVIP (Read Royal Flight and yes I am a Captain) worldwide I am sure I know what real flying entails.
Anyway keep posting but just quit winding folks up. You might just learn something that one day might save your own life.
Suggest you read the message from PicMas and engage brain before opening mouth or putting words on this thread. You have no idea what the skill level is of pilots on an anonymous forum so you must accept the criticism when it is fired at you, there are always others far more experienced than you (or me for that matter and i've only been flying for 34 years including 22 years in the military) so a modicum of thought and care needs to be taken before making statements that just make folks irate with you.
As for a PM, you can forget it, I am not going to get into a pissing contest with you because I too am suspect of your level of expertise having read some of your previous posts. As someone who flies VVIP (Read Royal Flight and yes I am a Captain) worldwide I am sure I know what real flying entails.
Anyway keep posting but just quit winding folks up. You might just learn something that one day might save your own life.
Last edited by kwachon; 22nd Feb 2008 at 21:12.
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flintstone:
you talked about who invented the airplane, not powered vs controlled flight...I clarified that the wright's did it all, powered, controlled...and the others didn't.
PICMAS: if you had read my post, you would have seen I flew bank checks during the FAA controllers strike...that was 25 years ago plus...I've come a bit farther during that: atpmelcfiimei 737 captain for a major airline in the usa.
and as to understanding my posts, really think about them...when I write I assume you have a brain. indicating a mindset problem doesn't mean the person was a bad pilot, it means that day, that moment something was influencing her abilities as a a pilot. even a quick glance at the AIM reminds pilots that they should assess their abilities to fly...using the term:
i
m
s
a
f
e
read it, as a lear 60 copilot you might learn something. post what the letters mean. and if the pilot of the citation had used that, maybe she wouldn't have taken off that night.
And as a lear copilot, would you take off after taxiing through a ditch?
kwachon: so, you have been flying for 34 years? I learned in 1975, so we really are pretty close aren't we?
royal flight...then you probably haven't taught people from day one in a non military environment. you may have trained hand picked cadets, but not people with more money then sense. Well, I have. And I've convinced some wealthy pilots to be to give up rather than hurting themselves.
kwachon, you really make me laugh. which royal flight? would you have taken off after you taxied through a ditch?
this forum demands we trust each other as to quals. no way to prove you are royal flight guy, or pcimas is an f/o on a lear. you may post your quals if you like. ask me a question that someone who flys would know and someone who pretends would have to take hours to look up.
and as to preaching to the choir about instruments, there are people on this forum who are just getting their private/instrument and might learn something.
were either of you instructors?
you talked about who invented the airplane, not powered vs controlled flight...I clarified that the wright's did it all, powered, controlled...and the others didn't.
PICMAS: if you had read my post, you would have seen I flew bank checks during the FAA controllers strike...that was 25 years ago plus...I've come a bit farther during that: atpmelcfiimei 737 captain for a major airline in the usa.
and as to understanding my posts, really think about them...when I write I assume you have a brain. indicating a mindset problem doesn't mean the person was a bad pilot, it means that day, that moment something was influencing her abilities as a a pilot. even a quick glance at the AIM reminds pilots that they should assess their abilities to fly...using the term:
i
m
s
a
f
e
read it, as a lear 60 copilot you might learn something. post what the letters mean. and if the pilot of the citation had used that, maybe she wouldn't have taken off that night.
And as a lear copilot, would you take off after taxiing through a ditch?
kwachon: so, you have been flying for 34 years? I learned in 1975, so we really are pretty close aren't we?
royal flight...then you probably haven't taught people from day one in a non military environment. you may have trained hand picked cadets, but not people with more money then sense. Well, I have. And I've convinced some wealthy pilots to be to give up rather than hurting themselves.
kwachon, you really make me laugh. which royal flight? would you have taken off after you taxied through a ditch?
this forum demands we trust each other as to quals. no way to prove you are royal flight guy, or pcimas is an f/o on a lear. you may post your quals if you like. ask me a question that someone who flys would know and someone who pretends would have to take hours to look up.
and as to preaching to the choir about instruments, there are people on this forum who are just getting their private/instrument and might learn something.
were either of you instructors?
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Sevenstrokeroll,
Well I guess we all hit a nerve. Guess you are only a CFI/CFII after all.
Well I have been an instructor for 27 years including outside of the military and for one of the finest teaching establishments in the world located in the US and other parts of the world. As I said in an earlier post, an FAA ATP and Type Rating Examiner too. Two things, in 1975 I had been in the Air Force for 6 years and go to post #8 for a clue as to which company I taught for.
Glad I make you laugh, there are many out here laughing at you too. I do not believe you are serious about this quote and expect me to divulge the name of my employer, clue......I am based and live in Saudi Arabia....and I do not make a habit of taxiing through ditches, plays hell with the gear and spills drinks in the back, but then you knew that did'nt you!.
Once again, dissing others only makes you look like the fool you pretend not to be. As for asking questions, look in the mirror and ask yourself who you are staring at.
You really need to get real and quit firing silly rants at others, most folks are known to each other outside of this website and your posts just provide more entertaiment to the rest of us.
Have a nice day.....
Well I guess we all hit a nerve. Guess you are only a CFI/CFII after all.
royal flight...then you probably haven't taught people from day one in a non military environment. you may have trained hand picked cadets, but not people with more money then sense. Well, I have. And I've convinced some wealthy pilots to be to give up rather than hurting themselves.
kwachon, you really make me laugh. which royal flight? would you have taken off after you taxied through a ditch?
this forum demands we trust each other as to quals. no way to prove you are royal flight guy, or pcimas is an f/o on a lear. you may post your quals if you like. ask me a question that someone who flys would know and someone who pretends would have to take hours to look up.
You really need to get real and quit firing silly rants at others, most folks are known to each other outside of this website and your posts just provide more entertaiment to the rest of us.
Have a nice day.....
Last edited by kwachon; 22nd Feb 2008 at 22:37. Reason: addition
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kwachon
if you have been flying for 34 years, it would seem to me you learned to fly in 1974.
but now you say you were in the air force for 6 years in 1975...something doesn't add up...unless you were a zoomie.
and as for being an instructor at FSI, I'm not impressed. Hey, maybe you know the chief instructor at vero beach in 1982 or so...a guy named Dick Bozo. I turned down an instructor job with FSI after seeing how things really worked there.
Perhaps you even instructed the person involved in the crash. Maybe you gave her a type ride. Unless you tell us, we will never know. Or maybe you believe someone trained at flight safety couldn't have made a mistake.
Somehow you don't think I am more than a CFII. Fine. It is what you think. It is not the truth.
I posted my quals earlier. But you don't believe them. I couldn't tell you anything on this forum to make you believe me. I couldn't tell you how to keep your feet from dangling sitting in the jump seat of a DC9/MD80. Or where the oxygen mask is stored for the 737 jump seater. Or which airline has two jump seats in their 737's.
I couldn't tell you about the height adjustment sight on a boeing.
Or how the magnetic compass is read on a DC9/MD80. Or where the porn is stored.
Or what control wheel steering is.
It is funny though, that someone with your quals never got on with a US based airline.
Heck, maybe you even flew C141's. Which would explain alot.
I've tried to indicate on this thread that a well trained pilot who was not in a good frame of mind might make a mistake.
I've also tried to indicate how many wealthy pilots, who treat their planes like cars, might get into trouble.
I just looked in the mirror. I just got a haircut and it looks good.
Good luck in Saudi. Me, I don't like sand.
but now you say you were in the air force for 6 years in 1975...something doesn't add up...unless you were a zoomie.
and as for being an instructor at FSI, I'm not impressed. Hey, maybe you know the chief instructor at vero beach in 1982 or so...a guy named Dick Bozo. I turned down an instructor job with FSI after seeing how things really worked there.
Perhaps you even instructed the person involved in the crash. Maybe you gave her a type ride. Unless you tell us, we will never know. Or maybe you believe someone trained at flight safety couldn't have made a mistake.
Somehow you don't think I am more than a CFII. Fine. It is what you think. It is not the truth.
I posted my quals earlier. But you don't believe them. I couldn't tell you anything on this forum to make you believe me. I couldn't tell you how to keep your feet from dangling sitting in the jump seat of a DC9/MD80. Or where the oxygen mask is stored for the 737 jump seater. Or which airline has two jump seats in their 737's.
I couldn't tell you about the height adjustment sight on a boeing.
Or how the magnetic compass is read on a DC9/MD80. Or where the porn is stored.
Or what control wheel steering is.
It is funny though, that someone with your quals never got on with a US based airline.
Heck, maybe you even flew C141's. Which would explain alot.
I've tried to indicate on this thread that a well trained pilot who was not in a good frame of mind might make a mistake.
I've also tried to indicate how many wealthy pilots, who treat their planes like cars, might get into trouble.
I just looked in the mirror. I just got a haircut and it looks good.
Good luck in Saudi. Me, I don't like sand.
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Oh dear Sevenstrokeroll,
Seems you really have your knickers in a twist now.
I said I had been in the Air Force 6 years, nothing about being a pilot at that stage....oh and it was the British Air Force, I came here 16 years ago after marrying my sweetheart, (yes an American).
You seem to know so much I bow down to your experience especially the part about where the porn is kept, must be a great airline you work for, but then again as you said you do know where the jumpseats are on so many aircraft so it must be true, I prefer to fly from the left seat.
Must be great flying from the jumpseat reading porn....glad I am not SLF on your airline.....do tell...
Seems you really have your knickers in a twist now.
I said I had been in the Air Force 6 years, nothing about being a pilot at that stage....oh and it was the British Air Force, I came here 16 years ago after marrying my sweetheart, (yes an American).
You seem to know so much I bow down to your experience especially the part about where the porn is kept, must be a great airline you work for, but then again as you said you do know where the jumpseats are on so many aircraft so it must be true, I prefer to fly from the left seat.
Must be great flying from the jumpseat reading porn....glad I am not SLF on your airline.....do tell...
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dear kwachon:
you see, real airline pilots end up in the jumpseat trying to get home, and of course the PIC has to brief the jumpseaters on how to be comfortable in the jumpseat.
RAF...jolly good. it explains why you didn't get on with a large airline in America.
I was not going to post this, but what the heck. You probably deserve it.
those who can-do
those who can't - teach
those who can't teach- teach at flight safety.
And when we fly , we fly passengers, not self loading freight.
you see, real airline pilots end up in the jumpseat trying to get home, and of course the PIC has to brief the jumpseaters on how to be comfortable in the jumpseat.
RAF...jolly good. it explains why you didn't get on with a large airline in America.
I was not going to post this, but what the heck. You probably deserve it.
those who can-do
those who can't - teach
those who can't teach- teach at flight safety.
And when we fly , we fly passengers, not self loading freight.
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What a sad epitaph sevenstrokeroll,
Seems that what we have been saying all along about you is true.
Enjoy your flight simulator program.. B is for brakes on the keyboard or should that be B.S.
Have fun in your little world and try to be nice.
End.
Seems that what we have been saying all along about you is true.
Enjoy your flight simulator program.. B is for brakes on the keyboard or should that be B.S.
Have fun in your little world and try to be nice.
End.