NetJets Europe - time to command
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NetJets Europe - time to command
Please read the title to this thread before posting replies about other areas of NetJets, Good or Bad. Otherwise it ends up in another bl**dy list of whom has been treated poorly and the defenders of the cause - thanks.
I have recently accepted a position to join NetJets early in the new year, and feel privilaged to do so. I am an experienced UK military Fast Jet type with over 3000hrs (still need another 250hrs Multi to unfreeze my ATPL) and a back ground in training.
I set my sights on NetJets because I am feed up with the crap that goes with life in a blue suit, but still enjoy hands on flying, meeting people, diversity and thinking on my feet; all of which I hope to find at NetJets.
To filful my requirement to continue enjoying my work I have accepted a pay-cut to join NetJets - however 56500EUR will not pay for my mortgage longterm.
My question is this - can people within the company see an increase in the time to command? I know there is continued expansion, but with 1000 pilots already operating with NetJets is it only going to be 'dead mans shoes' to move across to the left seat.
Any insight would be greatly appriciated.
Regards
DB
I have recently accepted a position to join NetJets early in the new year, and feel privilaged to do so. I am an experienced UK military Fast Jet type with over 3000hrs (still need another 250hrs Multi to unfreeze my ATPL) and a back ground in training.
I set my sights on NetJets because I am feed up with the crap that goes with life in a blue suit, but still enjoy hands on flying, meeting people, diversity and thinking on my feet; all of which I hope to find at NetJets.
To filful my requirement to continue enjoying my work I have accepted a pay-cut to join NetJets - however 56500EUR will not pay for my mortgage longterm.
My question is this - can people within the company see an increase in the time to command? I know there is continued expansion, but with 1000 pilots already operating with NetJets is it only going to be 'dead mans shoes' to move across to the left seat.
Any insight would be greatly appriciated.
Regards
DB
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DB - I spoke to a NJE captain recently who had very similar background to yourself and he was upgraded in just under a year but I would be hesitant to say this is exactly how long it will take you.
With the brimming order book the company cannot sell jets fast enough so you won't be playing dead mans boots.
With the brimming order book the company cannot sell jets fast enough so you won't be playing dead mans boots.
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Lots of guys are joining Netjets with the hope for a quick command.
The time to the LHS depends a bit on the type you join as well.
And should you fail the command assessment (especially the sim) and you wish to leave the company....sorry, you´re bonded for 2 years for your initial typerating.
Lots of the managers in the Lisbon office are ex-RAF...Haven´t you been offered a position as linetrainer yet?
Enjoy.
The time to the LHS depends a bit on the type you join as well.
And should you fail the command assessment (especially the sim) and you wish to leave the company....sorry, you´re bonded for 2 years for your initial typerating.
Lots of the managers in the Lisbon office are ex-RAF...Haven´t you been offered a position as linetrainer yet?
Enjoy.
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Once again this subjet about upgrades has been treated in different thread .
As Wilma said it depends on the type you join .
you join on large cabin you seat locked for 2 years at least
you join on small medium upgrade depends on avalibility and your capacity to go through the course.
Mike is telling you 250 hours in less than six months, well ! once again depends the type you fly. it can take up to 8 months with no leave to get to 250 hours .
Join Netjets for the type of ops and life style not for the quick upgrade could be disappointing
As Wilma said it depends on the type you join .
you join on large cabin you seat locked for 2 years at least
you join on small medium upgrade depends on avalibility and your capacity to go through the course.
Mike is telling you 250 hours in less than six months, well ! once again depends the type you fly. it can take up to 8 months with no leave to get to 250 hours .
Join Netjets for the type of ops and life style not for the quick upgrade could be disappointing
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And with all due respect for your fast jet experience, there is a lot to see in GA for the first time, could take 12 months. The actual flying is less than 50% of the job.
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Thanks to all for your replies, but I would like to make the following points to continue the debate:
1. I never expected my previous qualification in shooting people down to get me anything else apart from through the front door! However, leading large packages on complex missions, in an hostile environment and returning to a runway that is 500ft long and could be anywere within a 30 mile radius of where you left it. To land on within 10secs of a time that was dictated 5hrs previous (and has been changed 3 times since) with 90secs of fuel to flame-out, does show that military chaps do a little more than pole an aircraft.
Please don't get me wrong - I fully understand that my previous skill sets will help, but I am joining a new company, performing a new type of flying (only 250hrs on VIP multi aircraft so far) and will be the FNG learning the ropes.
2. I have read ALL the previous imformation on NetJets from every single source I can find - wouldn't anyone who is committing to embark on a career with them??
The new point I'm trying the get information on is whether the 'over' recruitment, coupled with an improvement of T&C's has/is going to reduce pilot turnover and increase time to command beyond the normal variables of the 'Known unknowns' (quote by Donald!) - suitability, ability, attitude and right place right time. Or will the rate of expansion off-set the 'unknown unknowns' until well into the future - catch my drift.......
I hope I haven't come across all arsey. Please, all informed comments welcome.
Regards
DB
1. I never expected my previous qualification in shooting people down to get me anything else apart from through the front door! However, leading large packages on complex missions, in an hostile environment and returning to a runway that is 500ft long and could be anywere within a 30 mile radius of where you left it. To land on within 10secs of a time that was dictated 5hrs previous (and has been changed 3 times since) with 90secs of fuel to flame-out, does show that military chaps do a little more than pole an aircraft.
Please don't get me wrong - I fully understand that my previous skill sets will help, but I am joining a new company, performing a new type of flying (only 250hrs on VIP multi aircraft so far) and will be the FNG learning the ropes.
2. I have read ALL the previous imformation on NetJets from every single source I can find - wouldn't anyone who is committing to embark on a career with them??
The new point I'm trying the get information on is whether the 'over' recruitment, coupled with an improvement of T&C's has/is going to reduce pilot turnover and increase time to command beyond the normal variables of the 'Known unknowns' (quote by Donald!) - suitability, ability, attitude and right place right time. Or will the rate of expansion off-set the 'unknown unknowns' until well into the future - catch my drift.......
I hope I haven't come across all arsey. Please, all informed comments welcome.
Regards
DB
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Well I guess it is easy to work out then.
Roughly speaking the company has been receiving around 30 aircrafts a year for the past 2 to 4 years.
So when 30 airframes represented a 100% growth in terms of size, in 07, it the equivalent of 30%. Therefore 08 is growth will be....
LHS positions are directly proportional to this physical expansion
plus like you said the variables known/unkown including people leaving the Company.
Clear as mud I know but the fact is we need LHS guys in great numbers due to our size but not so much in terms of proportion.
Sooooo nobody knows how long it is going to take you. On my fleet it seems to take about a year from DOJ to LHS Line check.
Roughly speaking the company has been receiving around 30 aircrafts a year for the past 2 to 4 years.
So when 30 airframes represented a 100% growth in terms of size, in 07, it the equivalent of 30%. Therefore 08 is growth will be....
LHS positions are directly proportional to this physical expansion
plus like you said the variables known/unkown including people leaving the Company.Clear as mud I know but the fact is we need LHS guys in great numbers due to our size but not so much in terms of proportion.
Sooooo nobody knows how long it is going to take you. On my fleet it seems to take about a year from DOJ to LHS Line check.
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DB
I'm in a similar position to yourself, albeit I have already started down the path; I need about 400ish multi hours to unfreeze my ATPL. I have been pondering the same questions and have the following to add, based upon conversations with other crews and my gut feeling:
1. I agree there will become a point when early upgrades will start to dry up. However, given the current plans for growth, I think you should be ok.
2. Regarding turn-over, the impact of the new contract on pilot retention is still not totally clear. I'll refrain from commenting further as I am not really qualified and don't want to start the usual debate. All should become clear in the next few months I guess.
3. I think about 12 months is a good bet for yourself, but build in 3-4 mths from Indoc to completing line training depending which fleet you are on. You may be lucky but don't assume there will be a trg captain instantly available.
4. Take all above with a health warning given I am still wearing rose tinted specs. I'd be very surprised if it happened given your experience, but, it would put a dent in your timeline if you were allocated to the large fleet with associated seat bar.
Feel free to PM me if you have any other questions.
Regards
PS. You must be relaxing already; it took 2 posts to tell us you're a Harrier mate
I'm in a similar position to yourself, albeit I have already started down the path; I need about 400ish multi hours to unfreeze my ATPL. I have been pondering the same questions and have the following to add, based upon conversations with other crews and my gut feeling:
1. I agree there will become a point when early upgrades will start to dry up. However, given the current plans for growth, I think you should be ok.
2. Regarding turn-over, the impact of the new contract on pilot retention is still not totally clear. I'll refrain from commenting further as I am not really qualified and don't want to start the usual debate. All should become clear in the next few months I guess.
3. I think about 12 months is a good bet for yourself, but build in 3-4 mths from Indoc to completing line training depending which fleet you are on. You may be lucky but don't assume there will be a trg captain instantly available.
4. Take all above with a health warning given I am still wearing rose tinted specs. I'd be very surprised if it happened given your experience, but, it would put a dent in your timeline if you were allocated to the large fleet with associated seat bar.
Feel free to PM me if you have any other questions.
Regards
PS. You must be relaxing already; it took 2 posts to tell us you're a Harrier mate
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I think realistically you would be looking to upgrade closer to 12 months down the road than 6.
Just because it does take time from your INDOC, to complete your type rating, get the licencing paperwork done, complete your Line training(3-6 months) and then spend 6 months seeing the operation and some of the places we go to.
But, 12 months goes very quickly at NJ, if you consider you do 3 tours a month, you spent 4 months from INDOC to completion of Line training, that leaves 8 months, which is roughly 24 tours, minus for Leave and a recurrent sim, you are talking about 20 tours...
Just because it does take time from your INDOC, to complete your type rating, get the licencing paperwork done, complete your Line training(3-6 months) and then spend 6 months seeing the operation and some of the places we go to.
But, 12 months goes very quickly at NJ, if you consider you do 3 tours a month, you spent 4 months from INDOC to completion of Line training, that leaves 8 months, which is roughly 24 tours, minus for Leave and a recurrent sim, you are talking about 20 tours...
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DB
Lots of relevant experience then NJE in the height of summer is a warzone ask any handling agent
Good luck with the seat swap, bear in mind the fastest time to command will probably be on the small cabin stuff however in many respects these are the most difficult to crew.
Hope for the Excel or Hawker 800/750 to complete your "mission" without getting backache in a Bravo or climbing over bags in the cabin in a 400.
Best of luck
Lots of relevant experience then
NJE in the height of summer is a warzone ask any handling agentGood luck with the seat swap, bear in mind the fastest time to command will probably be on the small cabin stuff however in many respects these are the most difficult to crew.
Hope for the Excel or Hawker 800/750 to complete your "mission" without getting backache in a Bravo or climbing over bags in the cabin in a 400.
Best of luck
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DB
It has been know for people to be offered an upgrade at the end of their line training if you have shown the ability and have the experience.
Most of your initial is done in the left hand seat as is your LST therfore all you need to do is do the Upgrade course then line trg/check.
As MJ put it its about 6 mts for 250hrs from the time you start line training but that is very much fleet dependant as the mid size cabin will do 500-600hrs p/a and the large cabin somewhat more. But the small cabin ie B400 and Citation somewhat less as ive spoken to some of the chaps who only do about 300hrs p/a.
So i will make an aviation prediction (you know what that means)
With your experience, only 250 hrs to ATPL and training background its quite likely that you will end up on the mid size fleet and more specifically the 800XPC. With a view to upgrade (very much dependant on you) within 6mts or when you have 498hrs multi as you will have to do an LST/ATPL Line check and then line training about a year after that.
G-SPOT LOST is right (my missus says i found you last night though
) Hope and pray you get the Mid Cabin as they have APU's. XL's are mostly central Europe with the odd excursion where as the 800's do a bit further (done everthing within the box of UUWW BIRK OMDB and GCTS. But we do have to do UUWW quite often which is a pain in the arse. The only good thing about Moscow is watching its airspace disappear on your ND.
But as you know that may or may not happen.
What ever comes about good luck and enjoy it, it is a lot of fun
It has been know for people to be offered an upgrade at the end of their line training if you have shown the ability and have the experience.
Most of your initial is done in the left hand seat as is your LST therfore all you need to do is do the Upgrade course then line trg/check.
As MJ put it its about 6 mts for 250hrs from the time you start line training but that is very much fleet dependant as the mid size cabin will do 500-600hrs p/a and the large cabin somewhat more. But the small cabin ie B400 and Citation somewhat less as ive spoken to some of the chaps who only do about 300hrs p/a.
So i will make an aviation prediction (you know what that means)
With your experience, only 250 hrs to ATPL and training background its quite likely that you will end up on the mid size fleet and more specifically the 800XPC. With a view to upgrade (very much dependant on you) within 6mts or when you have 498hrs multi as you will have to do an LST/ATPL Line check and then line training about a year after that.
G-SPOT LOST is right (my missus says i found you last night though
) Hope and pray you get the Mid Cabin as they have APU's. XL's are mostly central Europe with the odd excursion where as the 800's do a bit further (done everthing within the box of UUWW BIRK OMDB and GCTS. But we do have to do UUWW quite often which is a pain in the arse. The only good thing about Moscow is watching its airspace disappear on your ND.But as you know that may or may not happen.
What ever comes about good luck and enjoy it, it is a lot of fun
Last edited by gone till november; 27th Nov 2007 at 18:50.
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Time to upgrade depend on which fleet you are and the demand.
Upgrade will be quicker on the hawker 800 fleet as we are receiving a bunch of them next year.
I would say between 6 month to one year, this all also depend on your performance during F/O line training.
As a reminder, the pass rate for the upgrade at this time is between 60 to 70% %. pass rate has been decreasing the last few months. Failure is bigger within the ex-GA and ex-military pilots communities. So read your book well in advance and take an active part on the decision making process already now.
Upgrade will be quicker on the hawker 800 fleet as we are receiving a bunch of them next year.
I would say between 6 month to one year, this all also depend on your performance during F/O line training.
As a reminder, the pass rate for the upgrade at this time is between 60 to 70% %. pass rate has been decreasing the last few months. Failure is bigger within the ex-GA and ex-military pilots communities. So read your book well in advance and take an active part on the decision making process already now.
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Mike,
Aaah GRT, nice food but wrong numbers as usual (propaganda!)
being part of the team, i can confirm 70 to 80% pass rate decreasing those last few months....
And GA and military pilots (Single jet pilot mostly) have a higher fail rate than ex-airline pilot.
Aaah GRT, nice food but wrong numbers as usual (propaganda!)
being part of the team, i can confirm 70 to 80% pass rate decreasing those last few months....
And GA and military pilots (Single jet pilot mostly) have a higher fail rate than ex-airline pilot.
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an experienced UK military Fast Jet type with over 3000hrs (still need another 250hrs Multi to unfreeze my ATPL)
unexperienced transport pilot actually............at the very least !!!....
so you should head to the LHS within............let's say.... 2 months from Indoc ?
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Rvator,
Did you not pass the Upgrade Course?
Just a polite question as you seem to be so very offensive to a polite, experienced gentleman with a valid and honest question?
Did you not pass the Upgrade Course?
Just a polite question as you seem to be so very offensive to a polite, experienced gentleman with a valid and honest question?
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3000 hours of military fast jets is not a licence to do well the job required by Netjets. Military pilots have a learning curve too and its difficult to said how long will it take to fly as an Airline pilot for Netjets. It is true that the fail rate of military pilots at the upgrade is not low also. Military pilots are not better or worse than civilian Pilots but they have been trained differently for a total different job, over confidence could be also a problem, an Airline Pilot is not performing a mission. Saying that, one point that you have to take in consideration is the number of commuter pilots already hired by Netjets with 2500 to 3500 h most of them already ready for upgrade just waiting for seat to unlock or upgrade courses avalaibilities...we have about 1000 pilots now with already at least 100 to 200 First officers with 2 years of seniority and Netjets experiences who are ready for upgrade...unless you have a couple of influent friends from RAF in the training department its difficult to say how long its gone take... also a long waited seniority list is supposed to be released in January as lots of pilots are beeing fed up seeing new hires upgrading faster because of networking ...one thing you need to know before signing is that rules can changed very quickly at Netjets so if you cannot live with 57000 euros gross you are taking an important risk !
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Sorry
All - thanks for all the comments and information and again I apologise if I appear arrogant; I assure you I am not.
As I said, I will be the new guy with alot to learn and I fully concur that mil and civil are different environments with their own intricacies. However, I believe the attributes required to make a good aviator are the same in both situations.
I digress - due to my poor ability to convey the question that requires debate (and the one I would be grateful of insight) is a generic one.
'Would a generic pilot joining NetJets Jan 2008 have to wait longer for a Command opportunity than the same pilot had they joined Jan 2007 all things being considered (expension/retention/turnover/etc)?'
Thanks again
DB
As I said, I will be the new guy with alot to learn and I fully concur that mil and civil are different environments with their own intricacies. However, I believe the attributes required to make a good aviator are the same in both situations.
I digress - due to my poor ability to convey the question that requires debate (and the one I would be grateful of insight) is a generic one.
'Would a generic pilot joining NetJets Jan 2008 have to wait longer for a Command opportunity than the same pilot had they joined Jan 2007 all things being considered (expension/retention/turnover/etc)?'
Thanks again
DB
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'Would a generic pilot joining NetJets Jan 2008 have to wait longer for a Command opportunity than the same pilot had they joined Jan 2007 all things being considered (expension/retention/turnover/etc)?'
Last edited by Red Goose; 29th Nov 2007 at 21:31.
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south coast how can you tell DB 12 months,??
unless he has ex RAF friends to send him on small/medium fleet , DB could easily end up on large fleet and wait 2 years.
this is the way it works in nje
unless he has ex RAF friends to send him on small/medium fleet , DB could easily end up on large fleet and wait 2 years.
this is the way it works in nje