Ag accident just north of Moree
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Hmmmm. I wonder if that really was the problem. I heard thatit wasn't overloaded and that it was a black night take off. The pilot thought that he was away and the next thing he new he was parked in a cotton crop facing where he had just come from!!
He might have been fully loaded but I don't think the answer would lay there persay.
Pilots first night season, probably under 50 hours night experience, dark night, full load, I mean why are pilots taking out full loads in there first few weeks on night spraying? especially on black ones.
Why arn't companys being pro active about saftey. This actually had a happy ending with the only damage being bent metal.
Not so about a year ago near Bourke I think it was.
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the role of a Chief Pilot about overseeing these issues. I mean whats wrong with a chief saying something like, I don't want that pilot taking an more than 3/4 of what that aeroplane is capable of lifting for the first 100 hours etc.(Perhaps not exactly that but you get the gist of what I mean). I remember when I first started ag spreading super the boss must have told the loader driver how much was the maximum load he was to give me. (i didn't know this at the time) and no matter how many fingers I stuck up in his face during the course of the day the bloody load just didn'd change. Much to my frustration.
I accept that its horses for courses, However this guy is still a low time ag pilot with very little night spraying exp. I think money i.e. productivity, is being put ahead of safety here. I'm sick to death of chief pilots simply being figure heads. Whether they like the idea or not one of there PRIMARY responsibilities is of the safety of the pilots under them.
He might have been fully loaded but I don't think the answer would lay there persay.
Pilots first night season, probably under 50 hours night experience, dark night, full load, I mean why are pilots taking out full loads in there first few weeks on night spraying? especially on black ones.
Why arn't companys being pro active about saftey. This actually had a happy ending with the only damage being bent metal.
Not so about a year ago near Bourke I think it was.
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the role of a Chief Pilot about overseeing these issues. I mean whats wrong with a chief saying something like, I don't want that pilot taking an more than 3/4 of what that aeroplane is capable of lifting for the first 100 hours etc.(Perhaps not exactly that but you get the gist of what I mean). I remember when I first started ag spreading super the boss must have told the loader driver how much was the maximum load he was to give me. (i didn't know this at the time) and no matter how many fingers I stuck up in his face during the course of the day the bloody load just didn'd change. Much to my frustration.
I accept that its horses for courses, However this guy is still a low time ag pilot with very little night spraying exp. I think money i.e. productivity, is being put ahead of safety here. I'm sick to death of chief pilots simply being figure heads. Whether they like the idea or not one of there PRIMARY responsibilities is of the safety of the pilots under them.
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Some good points there Agwagon ,of course legally no one can make a pilot take any load. Sometimes the pilots own ego wont allow them to take less than anyone else. Lets wait for some details and meanwhile take extra care out there.
It sure is dark at the moment and hot as well. The heat and loads of high specific gravity are both traps but youve got to love the challenge.
Its also an issue that we are doing less daylight spraying on the cotton prior to the night work beginning.
It sure is dark at the moment and hot as well. The heat and loads of high specific gravity are both traps but youve got to love the challenge.
Its also an issue that we are doing less daylight spraying on the cotton prior to the night work beginning.
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Re: Ag accident just north of Moree
All so true Agwagon, Hmmm wonder why PTSP has very little to say this time normally seems to know everything about other peoples mishaps.
Your quote aboute profit before safety is so so true there at nocair.
Have known a few agpilots start there with a new night rating only to be put to work of substandard strips at night, any night moonlight or not generally scaring themselves enough to completely pull the pin mid season, and after consultation with family generally give the game up all together. What a start to a night rating if it ends up in a prang, thankfully I suppose no one has been hurt this time.
Your quote aboute profit before safety is so so true there at nocair.
Have known a few agpilots start there with a new night rating only to be put to work of substandard strips at night, any night moonlight or not generally scaring themselves enough to completely pull the pin mid season, and after consultation with family generally give the game up all together. What a start to a night rating if it ends up in a prang, thankfully I suppose no one has been hurt this time.
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Re: Ag accident just north of Moree
All I can say is..............
Those who live in glasshouses should not throw stones!
Get the facts right first, girls
AT502
p.s. I do not work for the mob you are referring to either! I am just old enough and ugly enough to know better.
Those who live in glasshouses should not throw stones!
Get the facts right first, girls
AT502
p.s. I do not work for the mob you are referring to either! I am just old enough and ugly enough to know better.
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Re: Ag accident just north of Moree
Not sure where you are coming from on that one 502.
I can only speak for myself but I know that I'm talking about facts.
Everything I said in my post is 100% correct. And as for my thoughts and opinions on the role of the chief pilot, well thats my opinion. If you are truly old and ugly and wise I'm sure you would have come across CP's who understand that a new ag rating or a new night rating or a new instrument rating are simply stamps in lisenses to show that you have arrivied at a perticular standard demanded by CASA for that rating to be issued. THATS ALL!!
Then it's up to the employer (if they want to hire a pilot of this standard) to bring the pilot through a reasonable period of learning and actual experience. Of course the other way would be to just cut him loose and its sink or swim. I'm sure both courses will achieve the desired outcome. Which do you think is the safest one?
And by way of explanation about bringing them through. I don't mean that you keep a bit of an eye on them for a week or so. I mean that you have a very close relationship with them for more like the first season. Perticularly when their total ag time is very low.
502 this is not an isolated incident or accident. As I said the guy in the 8 about a year ago was not so lucky.
I can only speak for myself but I know that I'm talking about facts.
Everything I said in my post is 100% correct. And as for my thoughts and opinions on the role of the chief pilot, well thats my opinion. If you are truly old and ugly and wise I'm sure you would have come across CP's who understand that a new ag rating or a new night rating or a new instrument rating are simply stamps in lisenses to show that you have arrivied at a perticular standard demanded by CASA for that rating to be issued. THATS ALL!!
Then it's up to the employer (if they want to hire a pilot of this standard) to bring the pilot through a reasonable period of learning and actual experience. Of course the other way would be to just cut him loose and its sink or swim. I'm sure both courses will achieve the desired outcome. Which do you think is the safest one?
And by way of explanation about bringing them through. I don't mean that you keep a bit of an eye on them for a week or so. I mean that you have a very close relationship with them for more like the first season. Perticularly when their total ag time is very low.
502 this is not an isolated incident or accident. As I said the guy in the 8 about a year ago was not so lucky.
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Re: Ag accident just north of Moree
Said it before, will say it again.
Please do not mention companies or individuals too closely or the thread will be moderated off and nobody will gain anything.
Perhaps , 502, you could share some facts and end all the speculation. After all, it is unlikely we will read about it anywhere else.
When CASA/ATSB ring up wanting to know about "the accident/incident", reply "which one?"
It really gets them going
Please do not mention companies or individuals too closely or the thread will be moderated off and nobody will gain anything.
Perhaps , 502, you could share some facts and end all the speculation. After all, it is unlikely we will read about it anywhere else.
When CASA/ATSB ring up wanting to know about "the accident/incident", reply "which one?"
It really gets them going
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Re: Ag accident just north of Moree
THE FACTS
1. Unless you have talked to the General Manager, the Chief Pilot, AND the Pilot the simple fact is you don’t know all the facts. Don’t pretend you do.
2. Unless you currently work for this company you haven’t a clue what their safety culture is like, or their training programs.
3. The load was appropriate for the conditions and the level of experience. It was not a full load.
4. The pilot is still in the employ of the company.
5. If a pilot (one, not “a few”) chooses to leave mid season because he is finding night work very difficult, years later when he chooses to return to the industry of course he will make up an excuse for leaving that does not focus on his own shortcomings.
Seems a great deal of animosity towards this company in getting in the way of rational thought. Please don’t use the word "fact" if it’s something you heard at the tavern.
1. Unless you have talked to the General Manager, the Chief Pilot, AND the Pilot the simple fact is you don’t know all the facts. Don’t pretend you do.
2. Unless you currently work for this company you haven’t a clue what their safety culture is like, or their training programs.
3. The load was appropriate for the conditions and the level of experience. It was not a full load.
4. The pilot is still in the employ of the company.
5. If a pilot (one, not “a few”) chooses to leave mid season because he is finding night work very difficult, years later when he chooses to return to the industry of course he will make up an excuse for leaving that does not focus on his own shortcomings.
Seems a great deal of animosity towards this company in getting in the way of rational thought. Please don’t use the word "fact" if it’s something you heard at the tavern.
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Re: Ag accident just north of Moree
Well PTSP I will address a couple of your points which seem to pertain to my post.
But first let me tell you a lillle story.
Many many years ago I was driving happly along in my brutal machine that I had at the time. As I was driving through a large NSW country town along the main drag which happened to be a major highway I had to slow a touch for the car that was traveling along in front of me. Approching an intersection the lady driving it put her right blinker on and started to veer to the right as if to turn right. So as you do I started to ease arround on her left side to experdite my departure from this place as I had other places to be. Then to my amazement and horror the stupid B---- turned hard left right in front of me and I T-boned her good and propper.
Eventually the constabulary arrived and interviewed this winging incompedent poor escuse for a driver and she gave them a bucket of lies etc. As it happened it was the Desk Sargent who turned up as they were a bit busy and he was a dry old no nonsense bugger. He had his little note book out with pencil at the ready as I recounted my story which my mate Max was eager to bare witness to. The basis of my defence being that as she had her right blinker on I had assumed she was turning right.
I though I had it kicked to bits when without writing hardly anything the old Sarg pocketed the notebook and putting his arm arround my shoulder he lead me out on ear shot of the others and gave me a very caring however grave look,saying, " Son let me give you some time tested and proven advice, NEVER assume !". I found over the years that to be very good advice.
The moral then PTSP is that you have assumed I havn't spoken to any of these people. Havn't I ?
I have been told very reliably that the load considering SG was about equal to a full load.
And as for my comments about Chief Pilots and the introduction of pilots perticularly low time ones to night ag. These are my firmly held thoughts and beliefs and have been for a very long time. I have been arround long enough to have earn't the right to them.
Cheers Agwaggon.
But first let me tell you a lillle story.
Many many years ago I was driving happly along in my brutal machine that I had at the time. As I was driving through a large NSW country town along the main drag which happened to be a major highway I had to slow a touch for the car that was traveling along in front of me. Approching an intersection the lady driving it put her right blinker on and started to veer to the right as if to turn right. So as you do I started to ease arround on her left side to experdite my departure from this place as I had other places to be. Then to my amazement and horror the stupid B---- turned hard left right in front of me and I T-boned her good and propper.
Eventually the constabulary arrived and interviewed this winging incompedent poor escuse for a driver and she gave them a bucket of lies etc. As it happened it was the Desk Sargent who turned up as they were a bit busy and he was a dry old no nonsense bugger. He had his little note book out with pencil at the ready as I recounted my story which my mate Max was eager to bare witness to. The basis of my defence being that as she had her right blinker on I had assumed she was turning right.
I though I had it kicked to bits when without writing hardly anything the old Sarg pocketed the notebook and putting his arm arround my shoulder he lead me out on ear shot of the others and gave me a very caring however grave look,saying, " Son let me give you some time tested and proven advice, NEVER assume !". I found over the years that to be very good advice.
The moral then PTSP is that you have assumed I havn't spoken to any of these people. Havn't I ?
I have been told very reliably that the load considering SG was about equal to a full load.
And as for my comments about Chief Pilots and the introduction of pilots perticularly low time ones to night ag. These are my firmly held thoughts and beliefs and have been for a very long time. I have been arround long enough to have earn't the right to them.
Cheers Agwaggon.
Last edited by Agwaggon; 4th Jan 2006 at 19:55.
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Re: Ag accident just north of Moree
With tounge in cheek!
If it is not too hot in the kitchen would multitime like to share his views? (maybe ptsp could entice him out to play)
But on a serious note I think you would be surprised who has spoken to who ptsp. I happen to agree with most points from aggwaggon. And until the so called General managers and quasie chief pilots start to understand the human factors involved for flight and not just the physical requirements this type of accident rate will continue.
And before you have an opinion on my views, just sit back because I like many other pilots have been where this pilot has been.Yes I have ended up back the front, upside down in the middle of a field at 2am. Yes it was my fault. And no one was more beaten up over this accident than myself. And I went on to have other accidents thankfully I went on to live and learn a whole lot more. It has now been a very long time since I have had an incident. I now have a great chief pilot and avery progressive company to work with.
I once read a book with the most beautiful and amazing cover but sadly the story was crap. Something like that old company I use to work for so many years ago!!
If it is not too hot in the kitchen would multitime like to share his views? (maybe ptsp could entice him out to play)
But on a serious note I think you would be surprised who has spoken to who ptsp. I happen to agree with most points from aggwaggon. And until the so called General managers and quasie chief pilots start to understand the human factors involved for flight and not just the physical requirements this type of accident rate will continue.
And before you have an opinion on my views, just sit back because I like many other pilots have been where this pilot has been.Yes I have ended up back the front, upside down in the middle of a field at 2am. Yes it was my fault. And no one was more beaten up over this accident than myself. And I went on to have other accidents thankfully I went on to live and learn a whole lot more. It has now been a very long time since I have had an incident. I now have a great chief pilot and avery progressive company to work with.
I once read a book with the most beautiful and amazing cover but sadly the story was crap. Something like that old company I use to work for so many years ago!!
Bugsmasherdriverandjediknite
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Re: Ag accident just north of Moree
If a pilot (one, not “a few”) chooses to leave mid season because he is finding night work very difficult, years later when he chooses to return to the industry of course he will make up an excuse for leaving that does not focus on his own shortcomings.
What makes you think he will make up any excuses????. I think that not being comfortable is a damn good REASON (not excuse)to leave a job and stay alive. If he was a low timer, then its the responsability of the company he is working for at the time to recognise his limitations and train him through them to a higher experiance level. not make him do something he is not happy about doing and then bagging him for taking the HUGE step of leaving an industry because he wasn't comfortable.
No one died, nothing was wrecked and an operator was slightly inconvenienced. Bloody good outcome I think.
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Re: Ag accident just north of Moree
Is the pilot that crashed the same pilot that was told last year to not use full power on take off by management in this same companies only radial aircraft.
The end result on that occasion being the aircraft was written off on take off
I have zero animosity toward this company, it is important for the management of this company to realise that there company culture needs to change. 3 aircraft written of on takeoff in the last 2 years.
That to me does not sound sustainable. Especially when they have stopped insuring there aircraft
Years ago when super spreading was a big part of our industry it was not uncommon to dump part of the load on takeoff if things were going a little pear shaped.
The end result on that occasion being the aircraft was written off on take off
I have zero animosity toward this company, it is important for the management of this company to realise that there company culture needs to change. 3 aircraft written of on takeoff in the last 2 years.
That to me does not sound sustainable. Especially when they have stopped insuring there aircraft
Years ago when super spreading was a big part of our industry it was not uncommon to dump part of the load on takeoff if things were going a little pear shaped.
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Re: Ag accident just north of Moree
After reading "Latest ag industry rumors", how remise of me not to invite the other MORAL highgrounder TURBOMAN for your comments.
PTSP carnt you pleeeese let multitime out to play!!!
PTSP carnt you pleeeese let multitime out to play!!!
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Re: Ag accident just north of Moree
Good to see Monday's experts hard at it. Gee, Sumhorizon, you must be up early in WA...
By the way, when the older "Latest ag industry rumours" thread was going bananas, I actually got a phone call one night being accused of spreading sh*t on pprune, but that was just another assumption, as Agwaggon has pointed out. People can believe what they want, but my conscience is clear, as this is my first comment on this site.
If anyone wants to talk about all the circumstances behind what really happened from a genuine "safety-learning" point of view, they could always ring me, but I don't really think it is appropriate for me to talk about it on this forum. If the pilot involved wants to, then I'm not going to stop him but don't get your hopes up.
Hope everyone is keeping busy and helping those poor oil companies recover from their record profits!
Happy flying,
Warbo and the team at nocair (thanks Nu-aggy, might use that from now on).
By the way, when the older "Latest ag industry rumours" thread was going bananas, I actually got a phone call one night being accused of spreading sh*t on pprune, but that was just another assumption, as Agwaggon has pointed out. People can believe what they want, but my conscience is clear, as this is my first comment on this site.
If anyone wants to talk about all the circumstances behind what really happened from a genuine "safety-learning" point of view, they could always ring me, but I don't really think it is appropriate for me to talk about it on this forum. If the pilot involved wants to, then I'm not going to stop him but don't get your hopes up.
Hope everyone is keeping busy and helping those poor oil companies recover from their record profits!
Happy flying,
Warbo and the team at nocair (thanks Nu-aggy, might use that from now on).
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Re: Ag accident just north of Moree
What can I say this post is better than " Days of our Lives ". Im addicted I just have to check every few hours so I dont miss the juicy bits.
It would of been more fun if multitime & turboman were here, it would of added more flavour...
BUT SERIOUS
I think you can see that no good has come out of either thread. I think this got close to home And I hope that certain individuals have learnt a lesson on how to treat others. After all our industry is so small, when we need help we ring around each other all matey and then seem to get on pprune and slag each other anonymously. Lets stop the crap and work together to save our industry not destroy it. 100%
It would of been more fun if multitime & turboman were here, it would of added more flavour...
BUT SERIOUS
I think you can see that no good has come out of either thread. I think this got close to home And I hope that certain individuals have learnt a lesson on how to treat others. After all our industry is so small, when we need help we ring around each other all matey and then seem to get on pprune and slag each other anonymously. Lets stop the crap and work together to save our industry not destroy it. 100%
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Re: Ag accident just north of Moree
Sumhorizion,
you are under the assumption that I know who multitime is. Sorry can't help you, no idea who he / she is so I don't understand how I am supposed to let him / her out to play!!!!!
I agree that no good has some out of this thread. All that has happened is rumours & lies have been spread. This is not productive to any involved.
Just wait until the shoe is on the other foot and you sit and watch lies been written about yourself or your company and there is nothing you can do to stop it except know how ridiculous this is.
As someone said earlier, those in glass houses should not throw stones.
Cheers,
PTSP
you are under the assumption that I know who multitime is. Sorry can't help you, no idea who he / she is so I don't understand how I am supposed to let him / her out to play!!!!!
I agree that no good has some out of this thread. All that has happened is rumours & lies have been spread. This is not productive to any involved.
Just wait until the shoe is on the other foot and you sit and watch lies been written about yourself or your company and there is nothing you can do to stop it except know how ridiculous this is.
As someone said earlier, those in glass houses should not throw stones.
Cheers,
PTSP
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Re: Ag accident just north of Moree
How come there is great interest in this accident, and not one mention of the recent Cessna one west of Moree? Surely there must also be factors there that we can all learn from.