The Wright brothers just glided in 1903. They flew in 1908.

[Haraka]

Simplex you have just demonstrated, by your own quotes, that that L'Aeronaute was, in fact, an inaccurate and contradictory source of reporting in Aug - Sep 1891.

"Mr. Ader built a plane with unknown results."

So , as evidenced by these two submissions, this report can thus be disregarded as an initial statement with any provenance.

Q.E.D.

[simplex1]

The information published by L'Aeronaute in Aug.-Sep. 1891 highly discredits the flight(s) of Clement Ader who failed to present any evidence to a reliable person, Hureau de Villeneuve

L'Aeronaute (Aug.-Sep. 1891) does not appear at all to treat the subject "Clement Ader and its flying machine" with superficiality. On the contrary, Abel Hureau de Villeneuve (see: Abel Hureau de Villeneuve - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ), a french aeronautical experimenter and editor of L'Aeronaute, visited Ader before June 18, 1891. He did not find him home but latter received a letter from Ader who told him he would be delighted to show his plane to Hureau de Villeneuve in a few days. All this information was reported by Hureau de Villeneuve at a meeting of the French Aerial Navigation Society that took place on June 18, 1891 and was published by L'Aeronaute in its Sep. 1891 number (see 2). At the same meeting, a June 14, 1891 article, which had appeared in "Le Petit Journal", describing a spectacular flight performed by the plane of Ader, was quoted (see 2). During that meeting, Hureau de Villeneuve also mentioned an older plane built by Ader which he had seen in 1876 in a hangar (see 2).

In its Aug. 1891 number, L'Aeronaute published an article titled "About the airplanes" authored by the same Hureau de Villeneuve who wrote there many things about various flying machines mentioning also that: "Mr. Ader built a plane with unknown results" (see 1, pag. 175) and that "A few days ago Ader filled all the journals with the description of his plane" (see 1, pag. 171).

In other words, by Aug. 1891 Hureau de Villeneuve had not seen yet the plane of Ader, despite the fact he had received a promise before June 18, 1891 directly from Ader that this inventor would show his flying machine to Hureau de Villeneuve in a few days.

The case "Clement Ader 1891" is quite similar to that of the Wright brothers in 1903, 1904, 1905. Information about claimed flight(s) was published but when reliable persons manifested their wish to see the planes Ader and the Wright brothers failed to show their flying machines.

(1) "Il y a quelques jours, M. Ader faisait remplir tous les journaux delà description de son appareil improprement nommé oiseau, puisque les ailes ne battent pas, et qui n'est encore qu'un aéroplane. (pag. 171)
...
M. Ader a construit un appareil dont les résultats sont inconnus (pag. 175)"
Source: ABEL HUREAU DE VILLENEUVE, "SUR LES AÉROPLANES", L'Aeronaute, pag. 171-176, read especially pag. 171 and 175, August 1891, L'Aéronaute (Paris)

(2) "SOCIÉTÉ FRANÇAISE DE NAVIGATION AÉRIENNE

Séance du 18 juin 1891.

Présidence de M. WILFRID DE FONVIELLE, vice-président.

La séance est ouverte.
...
Une carte de M. Clément Ader, adressée à M. Hureau de Villeneuve, qui avait été rendre visite à l'inventeur, absent de chez lui a ce moment. M. Ader préviendra M. Hureau de Villeneuve dans quelques jours, quand son appareil sera monté de nouveau, et se fera un plaisir de le lui montrer.

Le Petit Journal du 14 juin. L'homme qui vole. M. Ader, le savant électricien, l'auteur du téléphone en usage en France, a inventé un appareil de vol dans lequel l'électricité joue le rôle de moteur. La première ascension a eu lieu dans le parc du château d'un grand financier français, aux environs dé Paris. Un élan vigoureux est tout d'abord imprimé sur un terrain solide, empierré ainsi que le font les acrobates dans l'exercice de la batoude, en bondissant comme sur un tremplin. L'appareil aviateur a parcouru ensuite de 3oo à 400 mètres, à une hauteur de 20 mètres environ, s'élevant, s'abaissant et se dirigeant parfaitement à volonté dans toutes les directions.

M. HUREAU DE VILLENEUVE. :— M. Ader a exposé autrefois un oiseau, sorte d'aigle de 10 mètres d'envergure, composé entièrement de plumes naturelles, au nombre de plus de 10.000, que j'ai été voir, en 1873, accompagné de Crocé-Spinelli, à La Villette, dans un hangar où il avait été déposé.
...
Le Secrétaire de la séance,
O. FRION."

"SOCIÉTÉ FRANÇAISE DE NAVIGATION AÉRIENNE, Séance du 18 juin 1891", L'Aeronaute, pag. 198-210, read especially pag. 200, September 1891, http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k5700069p/f6

[simplex1]

July 16, 1891 - Clement Ader had not shown yet his plane to reliable witnesses

"SOCIÉTÉ FRANÇAISE DE NAVIGATION AÉRIENNE
Séance du 16 juillet 1891.
Présidence de M. le lieutenant-colonel P. TOUCHE.

La séance est ouverte.
...
M. le SECRÉTAIRE GÉNÉRAL. — ... M. Gaston Tissandier a publié, dans les Nouvelles scientifiques de la Nature (numéro du 11 juillet), un article, dont je vais donner lecture, sur l'oiseau de M. Ader, habile électricien, connu déjà par l'invention d'un appareil téléphonique et d'un ingénieux système de rails sans fin.

M. W. DE FONVIELLE. — On a dit que l'expérience de cet oiseau mécanique avait été faite, devant un petit nombre de personnes, dans un parc dépendant d'une propriété de M. Eugène Pereire, aux environs de Paris. Je ne sais pas si c'est vrai.

M. le SECRÉTAIRE GÉNÉRAL. — Il est vrai que M. Ader a construit un appareil d'aviation, mais les détails donnés par les journaux, concernant les expériences faites avec cet appareil, sont très peu précis. L'inventeur n'a pas voulu dévoiler le système de moteur qu'il emploie. La structure générale de l'appareil est conforme au dessin paru dans l'Illustration. L'oiseau est construit entièrement en bois creux et en soie. Dans le corps de l'animal sont placés l'homme qui dirige, et le moteur, qui actionne l'hélice. Les ailes ne battent pas. L'inventeur se propose de faire voir son appareil, actuellement démonté, à des hommes de science et à quelques amis. Il a besoin de capitaux pour construire un appareil plus parfait. Mais on ne peut tabler, quand il s'agit d'un appel de fonds, que sur un appareil marchant effectivement, tout au moins sur un modèle fonctionnant.
...
La date, pour l'ouverture de la prochaine session, est fixée au 1er octobre 1891.

Le Secrétaire de la séance,
O. FRION."

Source:
"SOCIÉTÉ FRANÇAISE DE NAVIGATION AÉRIENNE, Séance du 16 juillet 1891", L'Aeronaute, pag. 222-237, read especially pag. 225, October 1891, L'Aéronaute (Paris)

[Noyade]

Another Wright catapult....

[99Cruiser99]

First Flight criteria

Shouldn't the airplane being considered for first flight also be aerodynamically capable of first flight?

In the Ader example I would interpret the "gust of wind" to be strong enough to physically move the weight of the apparatus but if the airplane was not designed such to be "airworthy" then it could never be considered as first.

Regardless of how it gets into the air, the first flight airplane must be capable of sustaining itself in the air once it was there.

[joy ride]

It all depends how you want to define "flight"!

Lighter than air
Heavier than air
Glider or powered
Control by body weight/position
Control by mechanical means
How many/what type of Controls are required to define it as an "Aeroplane/Airplane"?
What is defined as "Controlled" i.e. does a fugoid wave and crash landing count?
What is the exact definition of "Sustained"?



Then you get on to matters which are harder to verify in retrospect, like "Assistance":

Was the take off location level? Who measured it and how accurate was the measurement? Was the measurement witnessed and verified?

Was the landing at the same level?

Could the plane take off and fly in absolutely still air? (i.e. no Wind Assistance)

Was there any manual or mechanical assistance to accelerate the plane?


Next you have to examine the testimonies of participants and their witnesses, and there ARE questions surrounding these on many early flights.

Next you have to define what "Practical" means when describing a plane, and here you can drive yourself mad, because any single definition excludes types which ARE "practical" in certain use; a Land Plane is not "practical" if its engine fails over the ocean! Are modern military jets "Practical" if their flight control computers fail?

This is why the debate continues!

[longer ron]

Well somebody has to be 'officially' first - the trouble is that the Wrights did it before there was an 'official' governing body so there could not have been 'official' observers !

Surely it is a case of 'reasonable doubt' - the Wrights took the trouble to take high quality photos to back up their journals/records,we can argue the semantics forever more about various people but I still maintain that nobody has the proof of flying powered and controlled before the Wrights and some of the other contenders mentioned on this thread could not possibly be considered because there is no photographic evidence and also their machines did not have all the aerodynamic design and flying control surfaces to be able to claim 'controlled'.

As I have said previously even if people are unhappy with the criteria for the 1903 flights - the Wrights 1905 flights were still way ahead of any others !

As to Simplex's accusations about the 1905 flights somehow being 'faked' I must point out that their is a huge fundamental difference between the early Wright a/c and the 1908 model

[joy ride]

bral, my first 3 definitions are just there to be inclusive of as many as possible ways of defining human flight, and I know for this debate they are easily defined, qualified and ticked off our list.

The rest are more difficult!

[Haraka]

As I have said previously even if people are unhappy with the criteria for the 1903 flights - the Wrights 1905 flights were still way ahead of any others !

They certainly were instrumental in bringing in roll control to add to pitch and yaw (over an, initially at least, unstable platform) vis a vis employing natural stability.
Then, it can be argued, development converged ,with the Wrights seeking more natural stability whilst others sought to employ more direct roll control post 1908 .
By around 1912 the balance of the two approaches seems to have matured, to finally allow a fairly maneuverable aircraft to comfortably be flown "hands off".


Enter the B.E. 2 .

[99Cruiser99]

Then, it can be argued, development converged ,with the Wrights seeking more natural stability whilst others sought to employ more direct roll control post 1908 . Haraka

You must admit that it is extremely coincidental that real/meaningful advances by others didn't happen until AFTER the public flights of the Wright Bros. in 1908

[Haraka]

You must admit that it is extremely coincidental that real/meaningful advances by others didn't happen until AFTER the public flights of the Wright Bros. in 1908

So no real/meaningful advances by others before the Wrights' public flights in 1908 then ?

[simplex1]

The alleged Flyer III 1905 and and the May 1908 plane were identical so the 1905 pictures showing Flyer III in flight could have been made after May 1908.

The site Home Page for the Wright Brothers Aeroplane Company and wright-brothers.org states that:

"When flying the Flyer III in 1908 with upright seating, the brothers had devised a new control system with three separate levers for wing warping, elevator, and rudder... ."
Source: 1907-1909 Wright Model A

In conclusion, the May 1908 plane was the same machine as Flyer III with some minor modifications that could have been reversed anytime for a session of fake 1905 pictures.

If the Wright brothers flew the alleged 1905 plane in 1908, how can we be so sure the 1905 pictures (published for the first time in Sep. 1908) were really made in 1905 and not in 1908?

[longer ron]

But by your accusation - they must have also faked the 1903 flights as well...that was quite different in many respects...

[99Cruiser99]

progress

prior to the Wright Bros. first public flights the progress of others were measured in meters and seconds. i.e. on July 4, 1908 Glenn Curtiss flies 1,550 m (5,090 ft) in 1 minute and 42 seconds
and
In January, 1908, Henri Farman making the world's first circular flight of at least 1 km (0,621 mile) in a Voisin 1907 biplane. In a flight of 1 minutes 28 seconds at Issy-les-Moulineaux, France

These two aviatiors are good representation of what was accomplished until then.

[longer ron]

It also had not one but two new control systems. When flying the Flyer III in 1908 with upright seating, the brothers had devised a new control system with three separate levers for wing warping, elevator, and rudder . Orville seemed to have no problem with them, but Will found them confusing. When he crashed the Flyer III on 14 May 1908, he blamed his inexperience with the controls. Later that year when Wilbur assembled a Model A the brothers had shipped to France, he replaced the controls with a system of his own devising. Orville stuck with the original 3-lever system when building the Model A he demonstrated later that year at Fort Myer, but made some improvements when he built his next airplane. The end result was that Wright airplanes manufactured in Europe generally had a "Wilbur" control system, while those made in America had an "Orville." For a short time, you could order Wright airplanes with either Wilbur or Orville controls, your preference.

Both types of controls featured two levers -- one to actuate the elevator and the other to warp the wings and move the rudder. The warp/rudder lever was between the two seats; the elevator levers were to the right of the right seat and the left of the left seat. If a pilot switched seats, he also had to "switch hands.

So Simplex - the 1908 Flyer already had two possible control system layouts and you are saying that the Wrights then reverted to the original control system as well - just to take hundreds of fake photographs and even going to the trouble of staging many crashes just to make it look realistic ....
It would make a great film but quite frankly they did not have the time to do all that in 1908,there are not many pilots who will purposely crash their aircraft and I would put money on the Wright brothers not wanting to hurt themselves on purpose LOL

[longer ron]

Simplex posted

The alleged Flyer III 1905 and and the May 1908 plane were identical so the 1905 pictures showing Flyer III in flight could have been made after May 1908.

So if they were identical - what stopped it flying in 1905 Simplex ?

[eetrojan]

Simplex says "... the 1905 pictures showing Flyer III in flight could have been made after May 1908

Ridiculous.

You contend that the Wrights were merely “gliding” in 1903 and 1904, and still weren’t flying from 1905 to 1908. Through speculation, and aggressive innuendo, you accuse the Wrights of modifying their 1908 flyer to take dozens of fake in-flight photographs so that, for some unspecified reason, they could contend that they were flying in 1905 even though they first began to fly at some unspecified time after 1905 and, apparently, closer to 1908.

Total hogwash.

The Wrights had negotiations from 1905 to 1907 with various governments, but due to their unwillingness to reveal their design in advance, none came to fruition.

In January of 1905, the Wright’s offered to fly for the British government if they would simply agree in advance to pay 500 British pounds per mile covered, and also made a similar proposal to the U.S. government. Neither government accepted. Must have been a "bluff."

On October 9, 1905, the Wrights wrote again to the U.S. Government and offered to demonstrate a flying machine that could fly for “one hundred miles” if the government would agree to compensate them based on performance. The U.S. did not accept. Must have been a "bluff."

Finally, on December 23, 1907, the U.S. government requested bids for a flying machine and offered to compensate the winning bidder based on superior performance. The government requested a $2,500 deposit to obtain only serious bids. Oddly, 41 proposals were received, but only 3 included the required deposit. In January 1908, the Wrights submitted a proposal, including the $2,500, drawings and a photograph of their 1905 flying machine (see proposal below). At public demonstrations from September 1908 to October 1909, the Wrights repeatedly set endurance records and ultimately earned a $30,000 bonus. (full disclosure: they also had a crash that was fatal to the passenger)

Nonetheless, in your view from prior posts, the Wrights were “bluffing” from 1905 to 1908.

Since you say “bluffing,” let’s have fun with a poker analogy.

The Wrights partially turned their cards over in their proposal to the U.S. on January 1908 and, they revealed their entire hand in September 1908 when they began to fly for great distances, on command.

If a poker player implies that he’s got a winning hand when he pushes his chips into the center of the table - but you call him with your weak little hand - and then he kicks your sorry rump with a Royal Flush, was he really “bluffing”?

If you contend that the poker player is a cheater because he did not really have that royal flush when he made his bet, and he made it appear from up his sleeve just in time for the showdown, you’d better have proof, not mere innuendo and speculation.

[simplex1]

Another myth: The Wright brothers could not have risked in 1908 or after to fly hundreds of times just to take hundreds of pictures and pretend they were made in 1905

There are about 21 pictures, showing Flyer III in 1905

- Oct. 04, 1905: 9
- Oct. 03, 1905: 1
- Sep 29, 1905: 7
- Sep 7, 1905: 2
- Sep 3, 1905: 1
- June 23, 1905: 1

With just 6 flights (at most) in 1908 or after, the Wright brothers could have got all the alleged 1905 pictures related to Flyer III. Obtaining those about 21 pictures was definitely worth the risk of max. 6 flights.

See: Search Results for "negatives wright brothers 1905" -- 1 - 20 of 31 | Library of Congress

In conclusion, with just a small number of flights done in 1908 and/or after the Wright brothers faked all the 1905 flights.

Flyer III as a real flying machine did not exist in 1905. Flyer III was flown, for the first time, in 1908.

[eetrojan]

Prove it.



.

[longer ron]

Simplex posted

The alleged Flyer III 1905 and and the May 1908 plane were identical so the 1905 pictures showing Flyer III in flight could have been made after May 1908.

So if they were identical - what stopped it flying in 1905 Simplex ?