The Wright brothers just glided in 1903. They flew in 1908.
Thread Drift Continued...
I thought this was interesting...
GUSTAVE WHITEHEAD - What Did He Do ?
Maybe history should concentrate more of Wilbur's fourth flight?
Unfortunately, it seems beyond dispute that Orville’s first flight on the 17th will probably continue to be seen to be The First Flight, although I do not believe that it should continue to be so honored. Orville Wright’s significant contributions in concert with Wilbur Wright’s remarkable, almost intuitive, grasp of aeronautical engineering, and their fascinating and roughly equal collaboration are well documented. Orville’s place in aeronautical history is quite secure. However, simply put, with respect to The First Flight, Wilbur is the right Wright and Orville is the wrong Wright.
Maybe history should concentrate more of Wilbur's fourth flight?
In conclusion, with just a small number of flights done in 1908 and/or after the Wright brothers faked all the 1905 flights.
One might almost think you were French canadian
Join Date: May 2014
Location: SoCal
Posts: 73
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So if they were identical - what stopped it flying in 1905 Simplex ?
Don't you see the scheme? They completely designed the 1908 Flyer III in the four weeks between the U.S. government's 23 December 1907 request for proposal, and the submission of their 28 January 1908 letter that included one of their alleged 1905 photos. However, it was really just built during that short period of time in order to take that and all of the other "1905" photos. By labeling them all "1905," it looked like they'd had been in possession of the design for a long time which gave them a leg up on all the other successful bidders. Lucky thing it flew so well since they just whipped it together at the last moment. It's so simple.
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Alaska
Posts: 175
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Regarding the proposal addressed to General James Allen and made by the Wright brothers on January 27, 1908 ( see: http://www.teamandras.com/temp/Wright_1908_Proposal.jpg ), where are that included photo of the 1905 Flyer and those drawings the Wright brothers wrote about in their letter?
Last edited by simplex1; 24th Jun 2014 at 22:57.
Join Date: May 2014
Location: SoCal
Posts: 73
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Regarding the proposal addressed to General James Allen and made by the Wright brothers on January 27, 1908, where are that included photo of the 1905 Flyer and those drawings the Wright brothers wrote about in their letter?
http://www.jaymesokolow.com/publicat...thers_1908.pdf
Neither the referenced photo from 1905 nor the drawings are included in the article. The authors' bibliography (p.36) may give you some leads if you want to track them down.
Last edited by eetrojan; 25th Jun 2014 at 05:32.
Simplex posted
The LOC has 300 Wrights images,but the thing is they would have had to fake all those other images from 1903 and 1904 as well - otherwise there would be no 'development' pictures - so we are not just talking 21 images - we are talking about a huge undertaking Simplex
There are about 21 pictures, showing Flyer III in 1905
An examination of the Library's collection of Wright glass plate negatives reveals that the brothers' documentation of their Kitty Hawk work began with only a few images of the 1900 glider. There are more photographs of the improved 1901 version, some of which show Wilbur actually gliding. And there are many more images of the larger and more capable 1902 glider--often showing both brothers in gliding or soaring flight. The photographs of the 1903-powered machine include the famous first flight image, but they are far surpassed in quantity by the large number of images that the Wrights took of their flights at Huffman Prairie in Ohio during 1904 and 1905. Digitization allows today's researchers to see technical details and hardware specifics that were formerly unclear.
Image caption following
An example of flood damage to the Wrights' collection of glass plate negatives. [Kitchen of the camp building at Kitty Hawk, North Carolina, with neatly arranged wall shelves holding dishes, canned foods, and other provisions] [1902]. Glass negatives from the Papers of Wilbur and Orville Wright,
Prints and Photographs Division, Library of Congress.
LC-W861-5
The Wrights' glass plate negatives show that the brothers used their camera to document other subjects besides their experiments. In fact, only about one-third of the more than three hundred photographs are images of their machines. Nearly two hundred photographs are of people and places, allowing a look at Kitty Hawk and the surrounding area as it was then and is no more: the open, honest faces of the hardworking men of the lifesaving crews; the Tate family up close; the interior and exterior of the brothers' Dayton home; the inside of their hangar/home at Kitty Hawk; and the members of their own family.
Image caption following
An example of flood damage to the Wrights' collection of glass plate negatives. [Kitchen of the camp building at Kitty Hawk, North Carolina, with neatly arranged wall shelves holding dishes, canned foods, and other provisions] [1902]. Glass negatives from the Papers of Wilbur and Orville Wright,
Prints and Photographs Division, Library of Congress.
LC-W861-5
The Wrights' glass plate negatives show that the brothers used their camera to document other subjects besides their experiments. In fact, only about one-third of the more than three hundred photographs are images of their machines. Nearly two hundred photographs are of people and places, allowing a look at Kitty Hawk and the surrounding area as it was then and is no more: the open, honest faces of the hardworking men of the lifesaving crews; the Tate family up close; the interior and exterior of the brothers' Dayton home; the inside of their hangar/home at Kitty Hawk; and the members of their own family.
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Alaska
Posts: 175
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There are only about 12 pictures showing the alleged Flyer II 1904
- May 1904: 1, not in flight
- June or July 1904: 3
- Aug. 5, 1904: 1
- Aug. 13, 1904: 2
- Aug. 16, 1904: 1, not in flight
- Oct. 14, 1904: 1
- Nov. 9, 1904: 1
- Nov. 16, 1904: 1
- unknown month, 1904: 1
Source: http://www.loc.gov/collection/wilbur...+brothers+1904
These photos would have required max. 4-5 flights and not a tremendous effort like flying hundreds of times just to obtain fake pictures to present them as evidence for the 1904 flights.
As a note: There are 307 pictures in total (the negatives of the Wright brothers) but less than 45, allegedly made between 1903 and 1905, show Flyer I, II, III flying or resting on the ground.
- May 1904: 1, not in flight
- June or July 1904: 3
- Aug. 5, 1904: 1
- Aug. 13, 1904: 2
- Aug. 16, 1904: 1, not in flight
- Oct. 14, 1904: 1
- Nov. 9, 1904: 1
- Nov. 16, 1904: 1
- unknown month, 1904: 1
Source: http://www.loc.gov/collection/wilbur...+brothers+1904
These photos would have required max. 4-5 flights and not a tremendous effort like flying hundreds of times just to obtain fake pictures to present them as evidence for the 1904 flights.
As a note: There are 307 pictures in total (the negatives of the Wright brothers) but less than 45, allegedly made between 1903 and 1905, show Flyer I, II, III flying or resting on the ground.
Last edited by simplex1; 25th Jun 2014 at 18:54.
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Alaska
Posts: 175
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I added the source of the 1904 pictures I talked about in my previous post.
Regarding the gliding flights of the Wright brothers that somebody mentioned, there are three gliders, model 1900, 1901 and 1902. Pictures and/or drawings related to them were published before Dec. 1903. There are also witnesses. They glided, there is no doubt about this. If they really performed 700 - 1000 glides between 19 September and 24 October 1902 as they claimed is debatable because 700 divided by 36 days = 20 flights/day which appears to be too much. There are just a few pictures with the gliders of the two brothers in flight. We have to rely on them when they claim they flew hundreds of times in a little more than a month.
Regarding the gliding flights of the Wright brothers that somebody mentioned, there are three gliders, model 1900, 1901 and 1902. Pictures and/or drawings related to them were published before Dec. 1903. There are also witnesses. They glided, there is no doubt about this. If they really performed 700 - 1000 glides between 19 September and 24 October 1902 as they claimed is debatable because 700 divided by 36 days = 20 flights/day which appears to be too much. There are just a few pictures with the gliders of the two brothers in flight. We have to rely on them when they claim they flew hundreds of times in a little more than a month.
Join Date: May 2014
Location: SoCal
Posts: 73
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In the 1903 photo, you see a hill nobody else sees and pronounce it a "glide."
In 2003, the 100th anniversary of the Wright brothers' first powered flight NASA reissued Arthur G. Renstrom's "chronology" regarding the Wright Brothers and their flights. I believe it was first published in connection with the 75th anniversary, in 1978, but it may have longer roots.
The chronology is very detailed and interesting on its own, but it's also supplemented by a "flight log" that, through the author's careful review of the Wright brothers' lettered diaries (e.g. "Wilbur Wright's Diary A," etc...), provides a year-by-year list of a large number of the glides and powered flights, locations, distances flown, time aloft, and witnesses present.
http://history.nasa.gov/monograph32.pdf
Mr. Renstrom also assembled a set of Wilbur & Orville Wright Pictorial Materials, including actual citations, you can download here:
http://www.loc.gov/rr/frd/wright_bro...-Materials.pdf
Note that while you seem to believe that the 300 or so photos in the U.S. Library of Congress are the entire constellation of photos, Mr. Renstrom tells us that nearly three thousand photographs are held by the Wright State University. They were donated to the University by the Wright heirs. Have you looked at their content? Were you aware that the Wright's numbered their glass plate negatives? Have you reviewed the Wrights photo logs?
You claim to study "primary sources", but you are treading on well-worn ground, behind real historians who actually looked at the real "primary sources" when making their conclusions. You also weren't the first Wright cynic, being about 100 years too late.
So, unless you get out of your computer chair and personally review the Wright diaries to gauge their progression, complexity, and overall authenticity, you have no valid basis for accusing the Wrights of fraud.
In 2003, the 100th anniversary of the Wright brothers' first powered flight NASA reissued Arthur G. Renstrom's "chronology" regarding the Wright Brothers and their flights. I believe it was first published in connection with the 75th anniversary, in 1978, but it may have longer roots.
The chronology is very detailed and interesting on its own, but it's also supplemented by a "flight log" that, through the author's careful review of the Wright brothers' lettered diaries (e.g. "Wilbur Wright's Diary A," etc...), provides a year-by-year list of a large number of the glides and powered flights, locations, distances flown, time aloft, and witnesses present.
http://history.nasa.gov/monograph32.pdf
Mr. Renstrom also assembled a set of Wilbur & Orville Wright Pictorial Materials, including actual citations, you can download here:
http://www.loc.gov/rr/frd/wright_bro...-Materials.pdf
Note that while you seem to believe that the 300 or so photos in the U.S. Library of Congress are the entire constellation of photos, Mr. Renstrom tells us that nearly three thousand photographs are held by the Wright State University. They were donated to the University by the Wright heirs. Have you looked at their content? Were you aware that the Wright's numbered their glass plate negatives? Have you reviewed the Wrights photo logs?
You claim to study "primary sources", but you are treading on well-worn ground, behind real historians who actually looked at the real "primary sources" when making their conclusions. You also weren't the first Wright cynic, being about 100 years too late.
So, unless you get out of your computer chair and personally review the Wright diaries to gauge their progression, complexity, and overall authenticity, you have no valid basis for accusing the Wrights of fraud.
Last edited by eetrojan; 25th Jun 2014 at 21:21. Reason: Removed snitty part.
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Alaska
Posts: 175
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There are less than 50 pictures allegedly made between Dec. 14 1903 and Aug. 7, 1908 and connected one way or another to Wright's powered machines. All of them are in the Library of Congress. Those "nearly three thousand photographs held by the Wright State University" are irrelevant, they do not bring new information regarding the claimed powered flights from 1903, 1904 and 1905.
Last edited by simplex1; 25th Jun 2014 at 23:50.
Join Date: May 2014
Location: SoCal
Posts: 73
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Those "nearly three thousand photographs held by the Wright State University" are irrelevant, they do not bring new information regarding the the claimed powered flights from 1903, 1904 and 1905.
Have you seen the Wright's diaries and the entries regarding their flights and related photographs?
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Alaska
Posts: 175
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Actually there is an interesting photo (see the image) held by the Wright State University which proves the Wright brothers were able or knew persons capable to fake pictures.
Description
Composite photograph of the Milton Wright family. Left to right: Wilbur Wright, Katharine Wright, Susan Koerner Wright, Lorin Wright, Bishop Milton Wright, Reuchlin Wright, and Orville Wright.
Publisher Repository
Special Collections and Archives; Wright State University Libraries
Source: "Composite photograph of the Wright family"
Description
Composite photograph of the Milton Wright family. Left to right: Wilbur Wright, Katharine Wright, Susan Koerner Wright, Lorin Wright, Bishop Milton Wright, Reuchlin Wright, and Orville Wright.
Publisher Repository
Special Collections and Archives; Wright State University Libraries
Source: "Composite photograph of the Wright family"
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: USA
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Expert Witness
Chanute on the Wright Brothers' Achievement in
Aerial Navigation.
To the Editor of the Scientific American:
Upon my return last evening from a ten days' trip
to New Orleans I received your letter of 19th and
telegram of 29th instant, asking me for a verification
of the statement in the Illustrirte Aeronautische Mit-
teilungen, that I witnessed a flight of about half a
kilometer by the aeroplane machine of the Wright
brothers.
This is quite true. The Wright brothers have for
the past two years been in possession of a successful
flying machine driven by a motor, to my certain knowledge,
and have been gradually perfecting it.
On the 15th of October, 1904 , I witnessed a flight
of 1,377 feet performed in 23 4-5 seconds, starting from
level ground and sweeping over about one-quarter of a
circle, at a speed of 39 miles per hour. The wind
blew at some six miles per hour, but in a diagonal
direction to the initial course. After the machine had
gone some 500 feet and risen some 15 feet, a gust of
wind struck under the right-hand side and raised the
apparatus to an oblique inclination of 15 to 20 degrees.
The operator, who was Orville Wright, endeavored to
recover an even transverse keel, was unable to do so
while turning to the left, and concluded to alight.
This was done in flying before the wind instead of
square against it as usual, and the landing was made
at a speed of 45 to 50 miles an hour. One side of the
machine struck the ground first; it slewed around and
was broken, requiring about one week for repairs.
The operator was in no wise hurt. This was flight
No. 71 of that year (1904), and on the preceding day
Wright brothers had made three flights-one of 4,001
feet for less than a full circuit of the field, one of
4,903 feet covering a full circle, and one of 4.936 feet
over rather more than a full circuit, alighting safely.
The illness of a near relative, who had to be taken
to the seashore, prevented me from being present at
the greatly longer flights of September and October,
1905, but I visited Dayton in November, on my return,
and verified the absolute accuracy of the statements
which the Wrights have since made, over their own
signatures, to the Aerophile of Paris and to the Aero
Club of New York. There is no question in my mind
about the fact that they have solved the problem of
man-flight by dynamic means.
Believing that this solution had a money value, they
have, until recently, preserved whatever secrecy they
could, particularly when those who chanced to learn
of their experiments made inquiries as to the construction
and details of their apparatus; but since the
French papers have published that negotiations were
pending for the use of their machine, they have given
some particulars of their performances. As the first
use will be in war, it is my belief that the various purchasers
will desire to preserve such secrecy as may be
practicable concerning the further developments.
In addition to the great feat of inventing a practical
flying machine the Wright brothers have, in my judgment,
performed another improbable feat by keeping
knowledge of the construction of a machine, which
can only be operated in the open, from the incredu·
lous but Argus-eyed American press.
I send you a page cut from The Car of London,
which may prove of interest. The Aerophile of Paris
for December, 1905, and January, 1906, contains fuller
accounts. O. CHANUTE.
Chicago, Ill., March 31, 1906
Aerial Navigation.
To the Editor of the Scientific American:
Upon my return last evening from a ten days' trip
to New Orleans I received your letter of 19th and
telegram of 29th instant, asking me for a verification
of the statement in the Illustrirte Aeronautische Mit-
teilungen, that I witnessed a flight of about half a
kilometer by the aeroplane machine of the Wright
brothers.
This is quite true. The Wright brothers have for
the past two years been in possession of a successful
flying machine driven by a motor, to my certain knowledge,
and have been gradually perfecting it.
On the 15th of October, 1904 , I witnessed a flight
of 1,377 feet performed in 23 4-5 seconds, starting from
level ground and sweeping over about one-quarter of a
circle, at a speed of 39 miles per hour. The wind
blew at some six miles per hour, but in a diagonal
direction to the initial course. After the machine had
gone some 500 feet and risen some 15 feet, a gust of
wind struck under the right-hand side and raised the
apparatus to an oblique inclination of 15 to 20 degrees.
The operator, who was Orville Wright, endeavored to
recover an even transverse keel, was unable to do so
while turning to the left, and concluded to alight.
This was done in flying before the wind instead of
square against it as usual, and the landing was made
at a speed of 45 to 50 miles an hour. One side of the
machine struck the ground first; it slewed around and
was broken, requiring about one week for repairs.
The operator was in no wise hurt. This was flight
No. 71 of that year (1904), and on the preceding day
Wright brothers had made three flights-one of 4,001
feet for less than a full circuit of the field, one of
4,903 feet covering a full circle, and one of 4.936 feet
over rather more than a full circuit, alighting safely.
The illness of a near relative, who had to be taken
to the seashore, prevented me from being present at
the greatly longer flights of September and October,
1905, but I visited Dayton in November, on my return,
and verified the absolute accuracy of the statements
which the Wrights have since made, over their own
signatures, to the Aerophile of Paris and to the Aero
Club of New York. There is no question in my mind
about the fact that they have solved the problem of
man-flight by dynamic means.
Believing that this solution had a money value, they
have, until recently, preserved whatever secrecy they
could, particularly when those who chanced to learn
of their experiments made inquiries as to the construction
and details of their apparatus; but since the
French papers have published that negotiations were
pending for the use of their machine, they have given
some particulars of their performances. As the first
use will be in war, it is my belief that the various purchasers
will desire to preserve such secrecy as may be
practicable concerning the further developments.
In addition to the great feat of inventing a practical
flying machine the Wright brothers have, in my judgment,
performed another improbable feat by keeping
knowledge of the construction of a machine, which
can only be operated in the open, from the incredu·
lous but Argus-eyed American press.
I send you a page cut from The Car of London,
which may prove of interest. The Aerophile of Paris
for December, 1905, and January, 1906, contains fuller
accounts. O. CHANUTE.
Chicago, Ill., March 31, 1906
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Auckland, NZ
Age: 79
Posts: 722
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
@simplex1
That sort of composite photograph (which is clearly NOT a "fake") was absolutely standard repertoire for a 19th c. photographer, just as no modern wedding photographer would survive without good knowledge of Photoshop.
You still haven't explained why you believe the Wrights did all this faking--I do NOT mean why, in your opinion, they did it but why you have that opinion, to motivate you to the sort of torturing of the evidence you are undertaking, which would be a bit strong even if done by a lawyer handsomely paid by G. Curtiss or G. Voisin.
It is pretty clear that the Wrights would be convicted in a modern court, to a criminal standard of proof, of having committed aviation between 1903 and 1905. The only interesting questions are about the relative priorities of the various groups (which is really vicarious willy-waving, a lot of the time), and much more interestingly, about how important the knowledge of the achievements (and failures) of the groups were to the rest of them.
I find it illuminating to discover just how meticulous the Wrights were in keeping records. Were any other of the pioneers this careful? You would expect Langley to have been careful, as a professional scientist, but he wasn't a professional experimentalist.
That sort of composite photograph (which is clearly NOT a "fake") was absolutely standard repertoire for a 19th c. photographer, just as no modern wedding photographer would survive without good knowledge of Photoshop.
You still haven't explained why you believe the Wrights did all this faking--I do NOT mean why, in your opinion, they did it but why you have that opinion, to motivate you to the sort of torturing of the evidence you are undertaking, which would be a bit strong even if done by a lawyer handsomely paid by G. Curtiss or G. Voisin.
It is pretty clear that the Wrights would be convicted in a modern court, to a criminal standard of proof, of having committed aviation between 1903 and 1905. The only interesting questions are about the relative priorities of the various groups (which is really vicarious willy-waving, a lot of the time), and much more interestingly, about how important the knowledge of the achievements (and failures) of the groups were to the rest of them.
I find it illuminating to discover just how meticulous the Wrights were in keeping records. Were any other of the pioneers this careful? You would expect Langley to have been careful, as a professional scientist, but he wasn't a professional experimentalist.
Join Date: May 2014
Location: SoCal
Posts: 73
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Actually there is an interesting photo (see the image) held by the Wright State University which proves the Wright brothers were able or knew persons capable to fake pictures.
. Here, maybe you'll enjoy this Wright Brothers version of "US Olympic gymnast McKayla Maroney is not impressed.":
Join Date: May 2014
Location: SoCal
Posts: 73
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
99Cruiser99 quotes:
Thanks. Seems pretty clear to me.
However, relative to an earlier letter from Octave Chanute regarding his observation of the same flight, our friend Simplex dismissed him as a credible witness, summarily asserting in post 245 that "It appears Chanute teamed up with the two brothers and he tried to give a plus of credibility to the lies perpetrated by the Wrights."
Chanute on the Wright Brothers' Achievement in
Aerial Navigation.
To the Editor of the Scientific American:
*** I received your letter *** asking me for a verification
*** that I witnessed a flight of about half a
kilometer by the aeroplane machine of the Wright
brothers.
This is quite true. ***
On the 15th of October, 1904 , I witnessed a flight
of 1,377 feet performed in 23 4-5 seconds, starting from
level ground and sweeping over about one-quarter of a
circle, at a speed of 39 miles per hour. ***
O. CHANUTE.
Chicago, Ill., March 31, 1906
Aerial Navigation.
To the Editor of the Scientific American:
*** I received your letter *** asking me for a verification
*** that I witnessed a flight of about half a
kilometer by the aeroplane machine of the Wright
brothers.
This is quite true. ***
On the 15th of October, 1904 , I witnessed a flight
of 1,377 feet performed in 23 4-5 seconds, starting from
level ground and sweeping over about one-quarter of a
circle, at a speed of 39 miles per hour. ***
O. CHANUTE.
Chicago, Ill., March 31, 1906
However, relative to an earlier letter from Octave Chanute regarding his observation of the same flight, our friend Simplex dismissed him as a credible witness, summarily asserting in post 245 that "It appears Chanute teamed up with the two brothers and he tried to give a plus of credibility to the lies perpetrated by the Wrights."
Actually there is an interesting photo (see the image) held by the Wright State University which proves the Wright brothers were able or knew persons capable to fake pictures.
If you have, here's one to test it out on....
