The Wright brothers just glided in 1903. They flew in 1908.
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@simplex1
My French is admittedly not good, but I rather think the passage you quoted means the opposite of what you say:
"The agreed price only means/refers to the purchase of a single machine, without any patent licencing or monopoly of construction."
That is, the US Army is only buying an aircraft, not production rights.
You still haven't said why you really don't believe the Wrights, but maybe you could do this: in simple outline, please could you say what you regard as the major milestones in the development of powered flight (in the commonly understood sense) between, say, 1900 and 1910?
Once the plane accepted, the US army had the right to multiply it and do whatever it wanted to do with it without any further obligations regarding the inventor/constructor.
Le prix convenu ne s'entend que de l'achat d'un appareil, sans aucune licence de brevet ni monopole de fabrication.
"The agreed price only means/refers to the purchase of a single machine, without any patent licencing or monopoly of construction."
That is, the US Army is only buying an aircraft, not production rights.
You still haven't said why you really don't believe the Wrights, but maybe you could do this: in simple outline, please could you say what you regard as the major milestones in the development of powered flight (in the commonly understood sense) between, say, 1900 and 1910?
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"Le prix convenu ne s'entend que de l'achat d'un appareil, sans aucune licence de brevet ni monopole de fabrication."
Yes, I have to admit the most likely interpretation of the phrase is that the US army was not entitled to make copies of the plane after buying it.
Yes, I have to admit the most likely interpretation of the phrase is that the US army was not entitled to make copies of the plane after buying it.
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What was the most important milestones in the development of powered flight?
Building a man carrying plane able to leave the ground under its own power.
Stable flight, sustain flight, flying in close circuit are important milestones but they come always after a plane is able to take off.
To be sure they will occupy the most important place in the history of aviation, the Wright brothers claimed all the milestones, major or minor, in the development of powered flight.
They are the first who flew more than 40 min, more than 1 hour, without or with a passenger, more than 1 hour and half, etc. but the rest, their formidable achievements from December 1903, 1904 and 1905 are just tales.
Building a man carrying plane able to leave the ground under its own power.
Stable flight, sustain flight, flying in close circuit are important milestones but they come always after a plane is able to take off.
To be sure they will occupy the most important place in the history of aviation, the Wright brothers claimed all the milestones, major or minor, in the development of powered flight.
They are the first who flew more than 40 min, more than 1 hour, without or with a passenger, more than 1 hour and half, etc. but the rest, their formidable achievements from December 1903, 1904 and 1905 are just tales.
According to the "Signal Corps Specification No.486" each bidder was required to furnish a certified cheque representing 10% of the cost price. All the failed bidders had their cheques returned. In the case of the Wrights cheque, being the winner, the $2,500 cheque became a bond and kept until the aircraft was completed and handed over to the corps. Well, that's how I read it.
So, $25,000 plus $5,000 for exceeding the specification with regards to speed...
That's better than pulling teeth Simplex!
So, $25,000 plus $5,000 for exceeding the specification with regards to speed...
That's better than pulling teeth Simplex!
a prize no greater than the revenue a dentist made in 10 years.
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@simplex
I do not understand your post #570. I do not know what you are saying, perhaps because of double negatives or irony or something.
If not the Wrights, who did make the first powered flight?
Not that it is terribly important, but it seems to matter to you.
I do not understand your post #570. I do not know what you are saying, perhaps because of double negatives or irony or something.
If not the Wrights, who did make the first powered flight?
Not that it is terribly important, but it seems to matter to you.
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charlie taylor built the wrights engine.
just as an aside piper realised that the old charlie taylor working in their engine assembly plant was THE charlie taylor of the wright's fame.
it is said that they doubled his pay in honour of his achievements.
just as an aside piper realised that the old charlie taylor working in their engine assembly plant was THE charlie taylor of the wright's fame.
it is said that they doubled his pay in honour of his achievements.
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Peoples!
I have asked simplex1 - thread starter - to re-size his pics because they are too large and causing the pages to spread laterally. In one case over half a page wider.
We do have a max size that we like you to use, which is 850x850.
So can you please remember to stick to that size. It is PPRuNe's global size so your help will be much appreciated. .
Its a great story - but I hear that some people are getting fed up with adjusting their pages.
Thanks,
PPP
I have asked simplex1 - thread starter - to re-size his pics because they are too large and causing the pages to spread laterally. In one case over half a page wider.
We do have a max size that we like you to use, which is 850x850.
So can you please remember to stick to that size. It is PPRuNe's global size so your help will be much appreciated. .
Its a great story - but I hear that some people are getting fed up with adjusting their pages.
Thanks,
PPP
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"En cas d'insuffisance de l'engin sur un point quelconque de ce programme rigoureux, la caution espèces — 10 % — ne sera pas remboursée."
This time the meaning of the clause is clear: "The 10% deposit will not be reimbursed if the plane fails to meet all the imposed conditions."
This time the meaning of the clause is clear: "The 10% deposit will not be reimbursed if the plane fails to meet all the imposed conditions."
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I don't understand. Why do you think this information about the 10% deposit is important to the general topic of this thread?
Last edited by eetrojan; 23rd Jun 2014 at 01:18. Reason: So that I don't sound like Yoda.
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What was the most important milestones in the development of powered flight?
Building a man carrying plane able to leave the ground under its own power.
Stable flight, sustain flight, flying in close circuit are important milestones but they come always after a plane is able to take off.
To be sure they will occupy the most important place in the history of aviation, the Wright brothers claimed all the milestones, major or minor, in the development of powered flight.
They are the first who flew more than 40 min, more than 1 hour, without or with a passenger, more than 1 hour and half, etc. but the rest, their formidable achievements from December 1903, 1904 and 1905 are just tales.
Building a man carrying plane able to leave the ground under its own power.
Stable flight, sustain flight, flying in close circuit are important milestones but they come always after a plane is able to take off.
To be sure they will occupy the most important place in the history of aviation, the Wright brothers claimed all the milestones, major or minor, in the development of powered flight.
They are the first who flew more than 40 min, more than 1 hour, without or with a passenger, more than 1 hour and half, etc. but the rest, their formidable achievements from December 1903, 1904 and 1905 are just tales.
1. The Wright brothers were in fact very advanced pioneers in the history of flight (and, presumably, their 1908 demos were dinkum/kosher/straight up).
2. They were not the first to achieve powered flight, because powered flight (by stipulative definition) requires the ability to take off without any form of external assistance, including apparently a strong headwind (so, presumably, a PPL would be incomplete unless it included a demonstration of downwind take off).
3. Stronger than 2., and in apparent contradiction to it: the account the Wright brothers gave of their progress to the triumphant demonstration of 1908 is so full of lies and fables as to be radically unreliable.
1. is OK.
2. seems a bit nit-picky to me, but it's a point of view.
3. is radically incoherent with the rest of the argument, and it is hard to see how the Wrights could have got to 1908 without some sort of process of development very much like that in the standard histories (unless, of course, they had secretly bought a French aeroplane). 3. is incoherent because it both accepts the accounts of 1903-5 as describing what happened, but ruling them out because of assisted take off and simultaneously denies the truth of these accounts. In legal pleading I believe you can put an argument "without prejudice", that is "My client says not-A; but in the case that claim doesn't stick, we say "A, but not-B." But that's law logic, not normal, truth-focused logic.
simplex1, have I understood what you are saying?
. They were not the first to achieve powered flight, because powered flight (by stipulative definition) requires the ability to take off without any form of external assistance, including apparently a strong headwind (so, presumably, a PPL would be incomplete unless it included a demonstration of downwind take off).
Are we not talking here about the requirement for the aircraft , not the piloting ability?
Your understanding of of "law logic " does seem indeed to be the case , from personal experience.
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Hi FP
Are we not talking here about the requirement for the aircraft , not the piloting ability?
Are we not talking here about the requirement for the aircraft , not the piloting ability?
Hi FP
I think part of the unease with the stiff breeze point is that whilst the Wrights got airborne in 1903 in a stiff breeze , Clement Ader's getting airborne in 1890 was discounted as a flight (IIRC) because his aeroplane was "lifted by a gust of wind" .
As an aside ,if you look at the Dec 14th flight attempt by the Wrights , which was admitted as being down a slope, there is a visible concavity along the length of the launch rail.
There is a similar looking concavity on the famous Dec 17th picture.
I think part of the unease with the stiff breeze point is that whilst the Wrights got airborne in 1903 in a stiff breeze , Clement Ader's getting airborne in 1890 was discounted as a flight (IIRC) because his aeroplane was "lifted by a gust of wind" .
As an aside ,if you look at the Dec 14th flight attempt by the Wrights , which was admitted as being down a slope, there is a visible concavity along the length of the launch rail.
There is a similar looking concavity on the famous Dec 17th picture.
Last edited by Haraka; 23rd Jun 2014 at 07:25.
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Claimed flights at Huffman prairie, August 1904, no catapult was used:
"- 13th 1,304’ flight from 195’ track by Wilbur, first flight of 1904 by Wrights to exceed 852 ft. flight made 17 December 1903; front elevator assembly damaged on second flight; 640’ flight by Orville
- 16th 432’ flight from 160’ track by Orville; damage to front elevator assembly
- 22nd Three flights by Wilbur, one of 1,296’ from 160’ track; 1,432’ flight from 160’ track by Orville"
Source: 1904 - TRACK & DERRICK
The Wight brothers took care and also claimed unaided takeoffs just to be protected in case somebody might have accused them of taking off by not using exclusively the on board means of the plane.
A headwind blowing along a flat surface would not have helped the plane to fly (at least in a first approximation) but just to roll a shorter distance on the ground.
"- 13th 1,304’ flight from 195’ track by Wilbur, first flight of 1904 by Wrights to exceed 852 ft. flight made 17 December 1903; front elevator assembly damaged on second flight; 640’ flight by Orville
- 16th 432’ flight from 160’ track by Orville; damage to front elevator assembly
- 22nd Three flights by Wilbur, one of 1,296’ from 160’ track; 1,432’ flight from 160’ track by Orville"
Source: 1904 - TRACK & DERRICK
The Wight brothers took care and also claimed unaided takeoffs just to be protected in case somebody might have accused them of taking off by not using exclusively the on board means of the plane.
A headwind blowing along a flat surface would not have helped the plane to fly (at least in a first approximation) but just to roll a shorter distance on the ground.
A headwind blowing along a flat surface would not have helped the plane to fly (at least in a first approximation) but just to roll a shorter distance on the ground.
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"M. Ader a construit un appareil dont les résultats sont inconnus"
Source: L'Aeronaute, pag. 175, August 1891, L'Aéronaute (Paris)
"Mr. Ader built a plane with unknown results."
So, in Aug. 1891, L'Aeronaute just knew that Ader had built a plane but nothing about what that flying machine really had done.
Source: L'Aeronaute, pag. 175, August 1891, L'Aéronaute (Paris)
"Mr. Ader built a plane with unknown results."
So, in Aug. 1891, L'Aeronaute just knew that Ader had built a plane but nothing about what that flying machine really had done.
Last edited by simplex1; 23rd Jun 2014 at 09:46.
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The information that L'Aeronaute had in September 1891 was that a plane, powered by electricity and built by Clement Ader, had flown 300 - 400 m at a height of 20 m, in a perfectly controlled way.
This story is not credible. The batteries of the time could not have powered a man carrying plane. Also the performances of this plane are evidently superior to what the Wright brothers allegedly achieved on Dec. 17, 1903.
L'Aeronaute from Sep. 1891 quoting Le Petit Journal that appeared on July 14:
"Le Petit Journal du 14 juin. L'homme qui vole. M. Ader, le savant électricien, l'auteur du téléphone en usage en France, a inventé un appareil de vol dans lequel l'électricité joue le rôle de moteur. La première ascension a eu lieu dans le parc du château d'un grand financier français, aux environs dé Paris. Un élan vigoureux est tout d'abord imprimé sur un terrain solide, empierré ainsi que le font les acrobates dans l'exercice de la batoude, en bondissant comme sur un tremplin. L'appareil aviateur a parcouru ensuite de 3oo à 400 mètres, à une hauteur de 20 mètres environ, s'élevant, s'abaissant et se dirigeant parfaitement à volonté dans toutes les directions."
Source: L'Aeronaute, pag. 200, September 1891, L'Aéronaute (Paris)
This story is not credible. The batteries of the time could not have powered a man carrying plane. Also the performances of this plane are evidently superior to what the Wright brothers allegedly achieved on Dec. 17, 1903.
L'Aeronaute from Sep. 1891 quoting Le Petit Journal that appeared on July 14:
"Le Petit Journal du 14 juin. L'homme qui vole. M. Ader, le savant électricien, l'auteur du téléphone en usage en France, a inventé un appareil de vol dans lequel l'électricité joue le rôle de moteur. La première ascension a eu lieu dans le parc du château d'un grand financier français, aux environs dé Paris. Un élan vigoureux est tout d'abord imprimé sur un terrain solide, empierré ainsi que le font les acrobates dans l'exercice de la batoude, en bondissant comme sur un tremplin. L'appareil aviateur a parcouru ensuite de 3oo à 400 mètres, à une hauteur de 20 mètres environ, s'élevant, s'abaissant et se dirigeant parfaitement à volonté dans toutes les directions."
Source: L'Aeronaute, pag. 200, September 1891, L'Aéronaute (Paris)
Last edited by simplex1; 23rd Jun 2014 at 09:47.