Vanguard
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ASW Vanguards
Anent the Perpignan (European Air Services ?) Vanguards ... I used to see these aircraft quite often on drives to the Collioure/Port Vendres area, and wondered why there seemed to be no takers ... EAS seemed at the time to be a bit "non grata" with the authorities, which I assumed to be why the aircraft didn't fly, but I wondered a lot why the RAF didn't take them up for ASW duties, given the (visual) mess they were making of the Comet/Nimrod. I ascribed it to the Nimrod being a jet (and FOUR !!! - engined) which must have thrilled Coastal Command after all those years grinding through the ether with the Shackleton ... Pity, though, because there was something "just right" about the Vanguard, even if it really shouldn't have been built.
I once had a copy of a report by, I believe, one Mr. Worcester, who cogently "proved" that turbo-props were "right" and jets like the Caravelle were "wrong" - I also think (but that's more vague) that said Mr. W. was also very vociferous in various printed media, and no doubt in person with the "right people", that the A300 and A310 were the wrong aeroplanes at the wrong time and that UK Gov ought to have nothing to do with the whiole Airbus idea - The Economist in its Go for Boeing phase loved him ...
Mods: Sorry for the digression !
I once had a copy of a report by, I believe, one Mr. Worcester, who cogently "proved" that turbo-props were "right" and jets like the Caravelle were "wrong" - I also think (but that's more vague) that said Mr. W. was also very vociferous in various printed media, and no doubt in person with the "right people", that the A300 and A310 were the wrong aeroplanes at the wrong time and that UK Gov ought to have nothing to do with the whiole Airbus idea - The Economist in its Go for Boeing phase loved him ...
Mods: Sorry for the digression !
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OR.350/Spec.MR.218.
H.S. Comet with four RB.168 jet engines.
Avro 776 with three RR Medway.
A version of the DH Trident.
A further development of the Shackleton.
Breguet Atlantic.
Versions of the Vanguard and the VC-10.
The OR and Spec. were then replaced by AST.357.
The Short P.D.69 and various versions of current UK airliners.
As AST.357 could not be in service before 1978, a quicker solution was ASR.381/MR.254 written around the Breguet Atlantic as having the minimum acceptable performance. The final contenders were the HS.801(the Nimrod) and a variant of the Trident the HS.800.
The rest is history, one could possibly conclude that BAC were not prepared to indulge in a paper-chase “organised” by the usual suspects.
Ciarain.
H.S. Comet with four RB.168 jet engines.
Avro 776 with three RR Medway.
A version of the DH Trident.
A further development of the Shackleton.
Breguet Atlantic.
Versions of the Vanguard and the VC-10.
The OR and Spec. were then replaced by AST.357.
The Short P.D.69 and various versions of current UK airliners.
As AST.357 could not be in service before 1978, a quicker solution was ASR.381/MR.254 written around the Breguet Atlantic as having the minimum acceptable performance. The final contenders were the HS.801(the Nimrod) and a variant of the Trident the HS.800.
The rest is history, one could possibly conclude that BAC were not prepared to indulge in a paper-chase “organised” by the usual suspects.
Ciarain.
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I flew on an Air Bridge Merchantman on a familarisation flight from EMA-Cologne-EMA utilising the Flight Engineers seat. I did not stop smiling for a week-all those switches, dolls eyes displays, dials. A real mans aeroplane and none of this "girly" glass cockpit nonsense!!
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DC10RealMan said
I flew on an Air Bridge Merchantman on a familarisation flight from EMA-Cologne-EMA utilising the Flight Engineers seat. I did not stop smiling for a week-all those switches, dolls eyes displays, dials. A real mans aeroplane and none of this "girly" glass cockpit nonsense!!
I have to ask "what Flight Engineers Seat"
There was no provision for a Flight Engineer on the Vanguard.
In fact your company flew them as they were intended with only two crew. Unlike my company where the pilots were frightened by the thought of "only" two crew & flew with three pilots even as a freighter!!
Best seat in the house, higher than the other two & unable to reach anything!!
tristar 500
I flew on an Air Bridge Merchantman on a familarisation flight from EMA-Cologne-EMA utilising the Flight Engineers seat. I did not stop smiling for a week-all those switches, dolls eyes displays, dials. A real mans aeroplane and none of this "girly" glass cockpit nonsense!!
I have to ask "what Flight Engineers Seat"
There was no provision for a Flight Engineer on the Vanguard.
In fact your company flew them as they were intended with only two crew. Unlike my company where the pilots were frightened by the thought of "only" two crew & flew with three pilots even as a freighter!!
Best seat in the house, higher than the other two & unable to reach anything!!
tristar 500
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Forgive me if I've already posted this story here.
Some years ago, a friend visited our house, saw my Western model of a BEA Vanguard and remarked that in the late 1980s, while working for Elan Air Cargo?, he had flown from EMA to Cologne on the flight deck of a Vanguard-for the sole reason that his boss was too mean to pay for a commercial flight for him.
Needless to say, as a person totally uninterested in aircraft, it meant nothing to him, but I would damn near have killed to have had that experience!
My friend is a football fanatic and I reflected, a few years later, when I had to inspect Umbro's HQ (I'm a surveyor), that for me it was nothing (my eyes glaze over instantly at the mention of football), but he would probably have damn near killed to have had my experience. Pity we couldn't swap.
Some years ago, a friend visited our house, saw my Western model of a BEA Vanguard and remarked that in the late 1980s, while working for Elan Air Cargo?, he had flown from EMA to Cologne on the flight deck of a Vanguard-for the sole reason that his boss was too mean to pay for a commercial flight for him.
Needless to say, as a person totally uninterested in aircraft, it meant nothing to him, but I would damn near have killed to have had that experience!
My friend is a football fanatic and I reflected, a few years later, when I had to inspect Umbro's HQ (I'm a surveyor), that for me it was nothing (my eyes glaze over instantly at the mention of football), but he would probably have damn near killed to have had my experience. Pity we couldn't swap.
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Not trying to get into arguments, but the Vanguard was designed and built as a 3 man crew airplane. TCA did not want to utilize a 3rd crew member so they covered over that part of the overhead panel that was accessible by the 3rd man and removed the seat. Later, a few instruments were exposed so they could be read 'inflight'. It was flown by two pilots for the time it was in the company, not by design but by desire!
G
G
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If it was not designed for a Flight Engineer it should have been. A proper Flight Engineer who flew in World War II, smoked a pipe, smiling indulgently at young whipersnappers and gave you a slap around the head because he could.
Last edited by DC10RealMan; 13th Apr 2010 at 07:36.
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Vanguard Memories....
First Flight as pax Early to Mid 1960's on BEA Vanguard, Renfrew, the then Glasgow airport, to London Heathrow.
Remember seeing BEA Argosy freighters on arrival. Very exciting for a 8/9 year old.
Skipping forward to late 1970's or early 1980's, when as working in Ops for UK Holiday airline, I used to take Jump Seat rides from Luton (LTN/EGGW) to Glasgow, Abbotsinch by then, (GLA/EGPF) to get to Scotland on Air Bridge (Carriers) night newspaper flights.
As I was keen/interested, one flight I took along a NAV LOG for the same route but for a Boeing 737-200.
The Vanguard/Merchantman took about 9/10mins longer for the same route, burnt A LOT LESS fuel,
and in it's pax config carried 139 pax, from memory, as opposed to 130 on the Boeing....
As many viewers of this forum will remember, the Airlines had moved on from Propeller aircraft to shiny jets in those days for pax...
But we can all see that economics have forced them back to the likes of first ATP's and nowadays DHC-8 types for these sort of sectors..
A different era....
I pose one question for those in the know.....
Whilst sitting at the holding point, pre Take-Off, one of the Captains working for AB(C), possibly Kay, would 'deselect' the Generators,
from three of the engines. The reduction of fuel burn on these engines was marked. Am I correct in my memory...?
First Flight as pax Early to Mid 1960's on BEA Vanguard, Renfrew, the then Glasgow airport, to London Heathrow.
Remember seeing BEA Argosy freighters on arrival. Very exciting for a 8/9 year old.
Skipping forward to late 1970's or early 1980's, when as working in Ops for UK Holiday airline, I used to take Jump Seat rides from Luton (LTN/EGGW) to Glasgow, Abbotsinch by then, (GLA/EGPF) to get to Scotland on Air Bridge (Carriers) night newspaper flights.
As I was keen/interested, one flight I took along a NAV LOG for the same route but for a Boeing 737-200.
The Vanguard/Merchantman took about 9/10mins longer for the same route, burnt A LOT LESS fuel,
and in it's pax config carried 139 pax, from memory, as opposed to 130 on the Boeing....
As many viewers of this forum will remember, the Airlines had moved on from Propeller aircraft to shiny jets in those days for pax...
But we can all see that economics have forced them back to the likes of first ATP's and nowadays DHC-8 types for these sort of sectors..
A different era....
I pose one question for those in the know.....
Whilst sitting at the holding point, pre Take-Off, one of the Captains working for AB(C), possibly Kay, would 'deselect' the Generators,
from three of the engines. The reduction of fuel burn on these engines was marked. Am I correct in my memory...?
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Jorge46 said,
Not trying to get into arguments, but the Vanguard was designed and built as a 3 man crew airplane. TCA did not want to utilize a 3rd crew member so they covered over that part of the overhead panel that was accessible by the 3rd man and removed the seat. Later, a few instruments were exposed so they could be read 'inflight'. It was flown by two pilots for the time it was in the company, not by design but by desire!
G
I hate to contradict you, BUT, Our aircraft is at the home of Vickers Armstrongs. There is one of the design team on our crew looking after G-APEP. It was designed as a two crew operation after the success of the Viscount, also two crew.
The overhead panel has nothing on it that is needed in flight being mainly fire bottle indicatore Tail deicing information, Oxygen contents etc.
I will take a picture tomorrow & post it for you to see.
The only reason for three crew in the UK, prior to ABC/Hunting Clan buying them in 1980 was the BEA crew insisting on the third man, even when they were converted to freighters in 1970. In fact after they were converted he actually got a job because the coffee urn was behind him so he got to serve it!!!!
tristar 500
Edited for double cut & paste!!
Not trying to get into arguments, but the Vanguard was designed and built as a 3 man crew airplane. TCA did not want to utilize a 3rd crew member so they covered over that part of the overhead panel that was accessible by the 3rd man and removed the seat. Later, a few instruments were exposed so they could be read 'inflight'. It was flown by two pilots for the time it was in the company, not by design but by desire!
G
I hate to contradict you, BUT, Our aircraft is at the home of Vickers Armstrongs. There is one of the design team on our crew looking after G-APEP. It was designed as a two crew operation after the success of the Viscount, also two crew.
The overhead panel has nothing on it that is needed in flight being mainly fire bottle indicatore Tail deicing information, Oxygen contents etc.
I will take a picture tomorrow & post it for you to see.
The only reason for three crew in the UK, prior to ABC/Hunting Clan buying them in 1980 was the BEA crew insisting on the third man, even when they were converted to freighters in 1970. In fact after they were converted he actually got a job because the coffee urn was behind him so he got to serve it!!!!
tristar 500
Edited for double cut & paste!!
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Hi Tristar 500!
I have seen the pictures of G-APEP on ‘Airliners.net’ and really admire the work that’s done to preserve that last remaining example of the Vanguard. Congratulations to you and the team who look after her.
If you say there is a member of the design team there then maybe my memories are fading about that 3rd seat. I do know that TCA’s airplanes did have that seat and it was removed. The seats were surplus and eventually were utilized in a training device called ‘The Miles Trainer’. It was a glorified Link trainer type of thing and two seats were used in each device. Basically, it was used to train on the FD108 Flight Director system which was coming into use. I am pretty sure BEA’s airplanes were delivered with the 3rd seat and the airplane was crewed that way.
Before the delivery of the Vanguard in Canada much discussion was held with the Canadian MOT in regard to crewing the aircraft. TCA wanted 2 crew. The MOT relented with the proviso that F/O’s would hold an Airline Transport Pilot Licence. At the time, it wasn’t company policy for F/O’s to hold that licence until time of promotion to Captain. That requirement resulted in a large number of pilots scrambling to get the licence.
You’re right! There was nothing on that overhead panel that needed attending to in flight and couldn’t be reached by the forward crew anyway. I believe we had a cutout for ‘turbine bearing temperature’ gauges and maybe a couple of other things that were recorded in the log book for engine readings in flight.
Again, congratulations on the preservation of G-APEP. I hope she remains in good condition for many decades.
Cheers, J
I have seen the pictures of G-APEP on ‘Airliners.net’ and really admire the work that’s done to preserve that last remaining example of the Vanguard. Congratulations to you and the team who look after her.
If you say there is a member of the design team there then maybe my memories are fading about that 3rd seat. I do know that TCA’s airplanes did have that seat and it was removed. The seats were surplus and eventually were utilized in a training device called ‘The Miles Trainer’. It was a glorified Link trainer type of thing and two seats were used in each device. Basically, it was used to train on the FD108 Flight Director system which was coming into use. I am pretty sure BEA’s airplanes were delivered with the 3rd seat and the airplane was crewed that way.
Before the delivery of the Vanguard in Canada much discussion was held with the Canadian MOT in regard to crewing the aircraft. TCA wanted 2 crew. The MOT relented with the proviso that F/O’s would hold an Airline Transport Pilot Licence. At the time, it wasn’t company policy for F/O’s to hold that licence until time of promotion to Captain. That requirement resulted in a large number of pilots scrambling to get the licence.
You’re right! There was nothing on that overhead panel that needed attending to in flight and couldn’t be reached by the forward crew anyway. I believe we had a cutout for ‘turbine bearing temperature’ gauges and maybe a couple of other things that were recorded in the log book for engine readings in flight.
Again, congratulations on the preservation of G-APEP. I hope she remains in good condition for many decades.
Cheers, J
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Vanguard
Memorable Vanguard Flights
I don't post very often but this thread is bringing back some nice memories.
As a BEA Commercial Apprentice in 1971 my first Vanguard was G-APET back from Gibraltar to Heathrow in November that year. Four of us had been there for the weekend and as usual, ran out of money so arrived at the Airport broke and starving. Only to be told that there had been a cockup on the catering front and that as staff pax we were welcome to fly but that there was not enough meals for us. We sat at the front in a block of 4 seats around a table and the lovely ladies in blue took pity on us and asked all the passengers if there was any bit of their meals they didn't want there were us lads who would be most grateful. In the end from memory we had about 15 Prawn cocktails, 10 cheese and bikkies and a few main courses between us!!!
My last flight in the Guardsvan was June 1973, last flight of the day from Jersey to London. No problems for staff travel this time, as all 18 passengers and a baby boarded the aircraft at 2045. I sat at the back this time, remember those lovely big windows and the great unrestricted view down and along the wing? It was a lovely summer evening, sitting back with a whisky and ginger in my hand as we circled around the Epsom stack watching other aircraft both above and below me, it was simply wonderful.
Lovely to see the Vanguard well looked after at Brooklands, keep up the good work chaps
As a BEA Commercial Apprentice in 1971 my first Vanguard was G-APET back from Gibraltar to Heathrow in November that year. Four of us had been there for the weekend and as usual, ran out of money so arrived at the Airport broke and starving. Only to be told that there had been a cockup on the catering front and that as staff pax we were welcome to fly but that there was not enough meals for us. We sat at the front in a block of 4 seats around a table and the lovely ladies in blue took pity on us and asked all the passengers if there was any bit of their meals they didn't want there were us lads who would be most grateful. In the end from memory we had about 15 Prawn cocktails, 10 cheese and bikkies and a few main courses between us!!!
My last flight in the Guardsvan was June 1973, last flight of the day from Jersey to London. No problems for staff travel this time, as all 18 passengers and a baby boarded the aircraft at 2045. I sat at the back this time, remember those lovely big windows and the great unrestricted view down and along the wing? It was a lovely summer evening, sitting back with a whisky and ginger in my hand as we circled around the Epsom stack watching other aircraft both above and below me, it was simply wonderful.
Lovely to see the Vanguard well looked after at Brooklands, keep up the good work chaps
Last edited by Hanslope; 16th Apr 2010 at 16:45.
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Did someone mention 'ET'.
In storage after leaving BEA service and awaiting maintenace before joining the Air Bridge fleet.
Fresh of a check four and a new paint job.
In storage after leaving BEA service and awaiting maintenace before joining the Air Bridge fleet.
Fresh of a check four and a new paint job.
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Here's a clip from one of my very favourite films, "The long Good Friday," showing Harold Shand's (Bob Hoskins) arrival at LHR on a Concorde, right at the start of the film. Watch the Concorde closely and you'll see a Merchantman with its cargo door up, in the background. Was this the final year of BA Vanguard op's?
YouTube - Long Good Friday - Harold's Arrival
YouTube - Long Good Friday - Harold's Arrival
The Vanguard (my first command - sniff) was a much under-rated aeroplane. Capable of carrying 139 pax (same as the Trident 3) it was one of the fastest propeller aeroplanes ever built. Although the cruise TAS was only 360kts, this made little practical difference on domestic services. For example, my best chock-to-chock time on Belfast-LHR on the Guardsvan was 59 minutes. Achieved the same time on the Trident and the B757, but never beat it.
(The official block time on Gla-Lhr was some ten minutes less than for jets in today's busier ATC environment).
One of the reasons was a TO performance which meant you used the handiest RW intersection. The other was the descent speed - VMO was comparable with the jets. As the archives from Flight confirm, the aircraft had been flight-tested to 400kts IAS. Apparently one test pilot averred that, above 400 indicated, he preferred the Vanguard to the Valiant! Vne in service was up to 330 IAS and London ATC found it necessary to put up a notice to controllers to be aware that Vanguards could often outrun Boeings on the descent.
All this without hydraulic controls. In fact the faster the IAS, the more precise the aircraft felt.
They were also independent of many ground services in that they had their own airstairs and were capable of 3-point turns. These assets proved invaluable in the industrial anarchy of the 1970s.
Those massive props had some unusual side effects. Landing in a strong headwind, going into Ground Fine Pitch was like running into a brick wall.
It took me some time to discover that there was also a significant gyroscopic effect in the flare. This was particularly noticeable in Xwinds. A Xwind from the right would almost disappear in the flare - whereas that from the left would mysteriously increase catching many an unwary aviator by surprise. (Myself included till I sussed out what was happening).
Sadly for the Vanguard, its late entry to service was in 1961 - the same year as the Comet 4b. Its economic advantages were overlooked in the beauty contest.
SB
(The official block time on Gla-Lhr was some ten minutes less than for jets in today's busier ATC environment).
One of the reasons was a TO performance which meant you used the handiest RW intersection. The other was the descent speed - VMO was comparable with the jets. As the archives from Flight confirm, the aircraft had been flight-tested to 400kts IAS. Apparently one test pilot averred that, above 400 indicated, he preferred the Vanguard to the Valiant! Vne in service was up to 330 IAS and London ATC found it necessary to put up a notice to controllers to be aware that Vanguards could often outrun Boeings on the descent.
All this without hydraulic controls. In fact the faster the IAS, the more precise the aircraft felt.
They were also independent of many ground services in that they had their own airstairs and were capable of 3-point turns. These assets proved invaluable in the industrial anarchy of the 1970s.
Those massive props had some unusual side effects. Landing in a strong headwind, going into Ground Fine Pitch was like running into a brick wall.
It took me some time to discover that there was also a significant gyroscopic effect in the flare. This was particularly noticeable in Xwinds. A Xwind from the right would almost disappear in the flare - whereas that from the left would mysteriously increase catching many an unwary aviator by surprise. (Myself included till I sussed out what was happening).
Sadly for the Vanguard, its late entry to service was in 1961 - the same year as the Comet 4b. Its economic advantages were overlooked in the beauty contest.
SB
Last edited by scotbill; 28th May 2010 at 16:21.