Vanguard
>Back in the USSR, sounds like a Viscount to me.<
When I was young and learning to play the piano, I was intrigued to find that the Viscount and Vanguard could be easily distinguished by their different harmony. An overflying Viscount generated a descending major triad, which sounded happy and bright. A Vanguard produced a descending tritone, which always sounded mournful and unresolved.
The aircraft on 'Back in the USSR' generates major harmony but it doesn't sound in the right key for a Viscount, at least to my ears. Possibly the track was varispeeded.
When I was young and learning to play the piano, I was intrigued to find that the Viscount and Vanguard could be easily distinguished by their different harmony. An overflying Viscount generated a descending major triad, which sounded happy and bright. A Vanguard produced a descending tritone, which always sounded mournful and unresolved.
The aircraft on 'Back in the USSR' generates major harmony but it doesn't sound in the right key for a Viscount, at least to my ears. Possibly the track was varispeeded.
Last edited by ACW599; 30th Jun 2009 at 23:27.
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Sometime soon after the Vanguard entered service with BEA, I flew as a passenger on one from Renfrew to Heathrow. Shortly after top of climb, the captain made some announcement about the need to reduce power for a short while, and then re-introduce it. This was normal procedure on the Vanguard, and we were not to be alarmed. A substantial power reduction then took place, then after a few seconds, cruise power was resumed and the flight carried on.
Apparently this was an interim procedure to do with relieving the labyrinth seals, or helical splines or somesuch thing. Years later, I met an ex-BEA Vanguard pilot who had been one of the first to fly it on the line, and remembered this. He recollected that watching the autopilot pitch trim winding round furiously nose up and then nose down as all the power came off and then back on again was jolly interesting!
Apparently this was an interim procedure to do with relieving the labyrinth seals, or helical splines or somesuch thing. Years later, I met an ex-BEA Vanguard pilot who had been one of the first to fly it on the line, and remembered this. He recollected that watching the autopilot pitch trim winding round furiously nose up and then nose down as all the power came off and then back on again was jolly interesting!
>Sounds like a good musical sketch for Bill Bailey - the subtle influence of Rolls-Royce aero engines on the popular genre.<
I'm sure there's a book to be written about the relationship between the sound of machinery and music of the same period. Amongst other things the tritone (known in mediaeval times as 'diabolus in musica') was a staple of much rock music of the 60s and nowadays is heard all the time in heavy metal. Steam and diesel locomotive sounds and rhythms also seem to creep into a lot of music of the period.
Might make a nice programme for Radio 4. Any producers out there who'd like to commission me? :-)
I'm sure there's a book to be written about the relationship between the sound of machinery and music of the same period. Amongst other things the tritone (known in mediaeval times as 'diabolus in musica') was a staple of much rock music of the 60s and nowadays is heard all the time in heavy metal. Steam and diesel locomotive sounds and rhythms also seem to creep into a lot of music of the period.
Might make a nice programme for Radio 4. Any producers out there who'd like to commission me? :-)
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......Sometime 1960's, did a couple or several Air Canada Vanguard trips from mainland (proably Toronto or Montreal) to Gander. Very comfortable, and seem to remember being informed by the duty know-all that Air Canada's Vanguards were designed to be operated by two pilot crew, whereas BEA's had a third pilot in the loop, much as the Gripper (Trident) did. At the time I was an F/O on ex Canadian Pacific Britannia 314s which also were built to a three pilot philosophy. This, in turn meant a more divided systems responsibility. The co-pilot had the pressurisation control plus use of the manual dump-valve. Amongst other things, the Co-Pilot also had access to a bank of three-position inverter switches just behind his seat. In our case though, we operated with a professional F/E who would probably have hit me with the tech log if it looked like I was going to make a move anywhere near what was left of his stuff...... It was an awful long time ago, but I seem to remember the F/E's being mildly underwhelmed by BEA's latest fad of putting 'boy' pilots on the systems panel. However, I guess that junior BEA pilots down-route didn't have to oversee an engine change, swap an 'O' ring on an oleo, or un-block a gate valve......
Strangest memory from a BEA Vanguard ride was from Manchester to London. At some point after Take off, a smartly turned out Northern lady of a certain age and respectability, who - in those days - (1970ish?) would likely favour trowelled on make-up and a tight hair perm set in spray-on cement, began to make her way down the cabin glad-handing the other passengers, who all seemed to be pleased to see her. Cabin crew didn't seem to mind. It eventually turned out to be a senior cast-member from Coronation Street that everybody seemed to know (except me....) Maybe these days it would be seat 1A, dark glasses and a couple of body guards......
As a boy, and making one of many trips to Switzerland for the school holidays, I was dispatched as a BEA 'Unmin'. Instead of the train, and as a special treat it was on a BEA Viscount. A brilliant experience, and one I'll never forget.....The smooth steady whine of the turbo-props - a huge window, and a seat facing a couple accross a fixed table. (does that sound quite right?.....you know what I mean) This after one other BEA trip to Edinburgh in a Viking was a different world. The couple opposite me might recall the trip for a different reason. I had to let my pet grass snake at school go, but pocketed a handful of soft ready-to-hatch eggs which I intended to house in a stone horse trough in the garden at the Swiss end. I cringe to look back, even after about 55 years, but probably after lunch and well before top of descent, I hatched out several bright green wriggly new best friends with the aid of a half razor blade that I kept for the purpose. I remember letting them get the measure of their new surroundings and jump about - maybe, slither, for a few minutes, but because the thought never occurred that any body would actually mind, I simply have no recollection of what the reaction of my adult fellow passengers was......nobody complained, anyway.
Anybody else notice that when you open up to taxi on the 747-400, it sounds just like a Viscount?
One G
....now AKA Wangreyandhopeless...
Strangest memory from a BEA Vanguard ride was from Manchester to London. At some point after Take off, a smartly turned out Northern lady of a certain age and respectability, who - in those days - (1970ish?) would likely favour trowelled on make-up and a tight hair perm set in spray-on cement, began to make her way down the cabin glad-handing the other passengers, who all seemed to be pleased to see her. Cabin crew didn't seem to mind. It eventually turned out to be a senior cast-member from Coronation Street that everybody seemed to know (except me....) Maybe these days it would be seat 1A, dark glasses and a couple of body guards......
As a boy, and making one of many trips to Switzerland for the school holidays, I was dispatched as a BEA 'Unmin'. Instead of the train, and as a special treat it was on a BEA Viscount. A brilliant experience, and one I'll never forget.....The smooth steady whine of the turbo-props - a huge window, and a seat facing a couple accross a fixed table. (does that sound quite right?.....you know what I mean) This after one other BEA trip to Edinburgh in a Viking was a different world. The couple opposite me might recall the trip for a different reason. I had to let my pet grass snake at school go, but pocketed a handful of soft ready-to-hatch eggs which I intended to house in a stone horse trough in the garden at the Swiss end. I cringe to look back, even after about 55 years, but probably after lunch and well before top of descent, I hatched out several bright green wriggly new best friends with the aid of a half razor blade that I kept for the purpose. I remember letting them get the measure of their new surroundings and jump about - maybe, slither, for a few minutes, but because the thought never occurred that any body would actually mind, I simply have no recollection of what the reaction of my adult fellow passengers was......nobody complained, anyway.
Anybody else notice that when you open up to taxi on the 747-400, it sounds just like a Viscount?
One G
....now AKA Wangreyandhopeless...
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When I was an apprentice Ground Engineer with BEA, I was sent up to EDI one January to change a Tyne on a Vanguard that had been there a couple of days.
Normally the Vanguard was 3 engine ferried back to LHR, but the wind in EDI ahd been blowing strongly down the short runway, and it was decided that we would go up and do it.
Bit of a palavar, outside, snowing, jib crane, but got it changed.
Next morning, back to run it. It had been delivered minus the bleed valve, so we had to rob it off the old engine. The bleed valve adjuster was unavailable. So we started one engine (that had a generator), then the one we had changed (without generator), I soon saw why because as it was opened up, the ground power fell out due to the vibration. (I mean the cable fell on the ground!)
Figures taken, back to idle, power plugged back in, both engines shut down. Then open the massive petal cowlings (in the wind), give the bleed valve a couple of clicks, shut the cowlings and start again. We were doing this all day!
Two weeks later, I went on holiday to GIB and Tangier. Flew back from Tangier on the Gibair DC3, then onto the night Vanguard to LHR. We sat round the table in row 1 and 2. (First class was at the back) and played cards all night.
Normally the Vanguard was 3 engine ferried back to LHR, but the wind in EDI ahd been blowing strongly down the short runway, and it was decided that we would go up and do it.
Bit of a palavar, outside, snowing, jib crane, but got it changed.
Next morning, back to run it. It had been delivered minus the bleed valve, so we had to rob it off the old engine. The bleed valve adjuster was unavailable. So we started one engine (that had a generator), then the one we had changed (without generator), I soon saw why because as it was opened up, the ground power fell out due to the vibration. (I mean the cable fell on the ground!)
Figures taken, back to idle, power plugged back in, both engines shut down. Then open the massive petal cowlings (in the wind), give the bleed valve a couple of clicks, shut the cowlings and start again. We were doing this all day!
Two weeks later, I went on holiday to GIB and Tangier. Flew back from Tangier on the Gibair DC3, then onto the night Vanguard to LHR. We sat round the table in row 1 and 2. (First class was at the back) and played cards all night.
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I've always thought it was a Viscount on the Beatles "Back in the USSR." Too high-pitched to be a Vanguard in my opinion.
I have very fond memories of BEA's Vanguards from the 1960s, when I did quite a few flights on them from Manchester to London and back. I've worked out that my first flight must have been on a BEA Vanguard in August 1962, when we flew from Manchester to London (to pick up an Air France L1049G to La Baule). I say "worked out," because sad to say, as I was only four at the time, I've no recall of the flight or that on the L1049G (I know we flew on that because my father filmed it from the ground and I've still got the film), but I'm pretty certain that all BEA's Manchester to London flights in those days were operated by Vanguards.
I do however remember subsequent flights on Vanguards over the Manchester-London route. What a beautiful, smooth and powerful aircraft it seemed to me as a kid. And for a small child, those huge windows were marvellous.
Also, the Vanguard had a very distinctive-and to my ears very pleasant-sound; it purred, like a giant cat. I probably had my last flight in one in 1969, because I've learnt that Tridents replaced them on the Manchester-London run in December of that year.
Loved Viscounts too, but because of that first flight connection, I rate the Vanguard as my favourite classic turboprop. I was lucky enough to visit Brooklands on 13th June, when they ran up two of G-APEP's engines for about twenty minutes. Captured it all on video and I'll be posting about a three minute segment (including the start up) on Youtube as soon as I can work out how to download it and chop it into segments. Will also post the L1049G film if I can ever work out how to get that from a videotape into my computer. I'll post links here when I do this.
The Electra was a classic airliner too, but its sound just did not compare for pleasantness with the Vanguard, in my view.
I have very fond memories of BEA's Vanguards from the 1960s, when I did quite a few flights on them from Manchester to London and back. I've worked out that my first flight must have been on a BEA Vanguard in August 1962, when we flew from Manchester to London (to pick up an Air France L1049G to La Baule). I say "worked out," because sad to say, as I was only four at the time, I've no recall of the flight or that on the L1049G (I know we flew on that because my father filmed it from the ground and I've still got the film), but I'm pretty certain that all BEA's Manchester to London flights in those days were operated by Vanguards.
I do however remember subsequent flights on Vanguards over the Manchester-London route. What a beautiful, smooth and powerful aircraft it seemed to me as a kid. And for a small child, those huge windows were marvellous.
Also, the Vanguard had a very distinctive-and to my ears very pleasant-sound; it purred, like a giant cat. I probably had my last flight in one in 1969, because I've learnt that Tridents replaced them on the Manchester-London run in December of that year.
Loved Viscounts too, but because of that first flight connection, I rate the Vanguard as my favourite classic turboprop. I was lucky enough to visit Brooklands on 13th June, when they ran up two of G-APEP's engines for about twenty minutes. Captured it all on video and I'll be posting about a three minute segment (including the start up) on Youtube as soon as I can work out how to download it and chop it into segments. Will also post the L1049G film if I can ever work out how to get that from a videotape into my computer. I'll post links here when I do this.
The Electra was a classic airliner too, but its sound just did not compare for pleasantness with the Vanguard, in my view.
Last edited by Proplinerman; 15th Jul 2009 at 13:16. Reason: Decided to add some more
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Glad you liked the article Computer Jockey - Here is another one from March '60
Somewhere in this thread there was also a post asking about the colour scheme of the prototype. I found this picture in my collection
Somewhere in this thread there was also a post asking about the colour scheme of the prototype. I found this picture in my collection
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For years the only model available of the Vanguard was the 1/144th scale Airfix kit, but recently Aeroclassics have released a superb little diecast model of a BEA Vanguard. Have a look here:
Aeroclassics BEA Vanguard - 400 Scale Hangar
These are available from some specialist retailers like Aviation Retail Direct at Hillingdon or on E.Bay.
Thanks etsd0001 for that colour photo of the prototype - it was me that was searching for this and the response was that the belly and wings were a 'duck egg blue' colour, which it clearly is not! Disappointingly, it appears to be the standard light grey.
Aeroclassics BEA Vanguard - 400 Scale Hangar
These are available from some specialist retailers like Aviation Retail Direct at Hillingdon or on E.Bay.
Thanks etsd0001 for that colour photo of the prototype - it was me that was searching for this and the response was that the belly and wings were a 'duck egg blue' colour, which it clearly is not! Disappointingly, it appears to be the standard light grey.
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Vanguard Prototype colours
Here is the picture I posted some time ago in answer to this query.
This a model of the prototype which was used by Vickers as a promotional tool for the aircraft, as far as I know this was also the colours on the actual aircraft.
This a model of the prototype which was used by Vickers as a promotional tool for the aircraft, as far as I know this was also the colours on the actual aircraft.
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Originally Posted by WHBM
The Vanguard was a surprisingly noisy aircraft in the cruise. On London to Scotland they were audible overhead the Midlands cruising along at about 20,000 feet.
The electric system referred to seems similar to that of the Belfast, Britannia and Victor Mk1.
one of my first flights in 1964 was LHR to BCN night flight for 2 weeks to malgrat de mar on the costa brava with mum and dad
a BEA vanguard out and a british eagle britannia home
dad said the YN night tourist fare was £29 guineas
went to malta and gib too (all the colonial places lol)
we always seemed to sit at the ' club table'
the tridents had that too (well the bks ones did)
a BEA vanguard out and a british eagle britannia home
dad said the YN night tourist fare was £29 guineas
went to malta and gib too (all the colonial places lol)
we always seemed to sit at the ' club table'
the tridents had that too (well the bks ones did)
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Vanguard
Following on from my post above, I've today worked out (with assistance from a friend) how to download my camcorder recording of G-APEP running up two of her engines at Brooklands on 13th June just gone. I've today posted it on You Tube and here is the link:
YouTube - Vanguard Engines Running
It actually lasts nearly ten minutes tho and it's high quality (it took over five hours to upload!) My friend edited out about nine minutes in the middle of it.
Enjoy and please let me have your feedback.
YouTube - Vanguard Engines Running
It actually lasts nearly ten minutes tho and it's high quality (it took over five hours to upload!) My friend edited out about nine minutes in the middle of it.
Enjoy and please let me have your feedback.
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I worked on the hangers for a number of years on production control, including on the Vanguard conversion, re Merchantman floor height - yes they were lowered to accommodate the size of the std containers then being used, we also had to modify the fuse structure to take the door frames and additional loading. Each conversion lasted some weeks, it was a full stripdown.
The question about engine noise, there was a problem with sync, we could never get full snchronisation with all four, from memory it was No 2 that was always slightly out giving a pulsing throb through the airframe. As an aside, on each check we tested the wing structure flex, jacking each wing tip up 13 foot, we never did work out how to check downward flex.
Cheers
The question about engine noise, there was a problem with sync, we could never get full snchronisation with all four, from memory it was No 2 that was always slightly out giving a pulsing throb through the airframe. As an aside, on each check we tested the wing structure flex, jacking each wing tip up 13 foot, we never did work out how to check downward flex.
Cheers
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As the one on the headset for that engine run , may I thank you for your noble efforts with the film as was said Its a bit of a thrill even to old people like myself who maintained them in anger during their hayday in the 60s and 70s with B.E.A. to get at least 2 of them running though looking at no3 we were a bit over the top with the engine oil when filling it with all that smoke but never mind they ran and all the bits worked , and we are glad everyone enjoyed it .
by the bye is there anyone in PPruneland know of anyone with 1 or2 electric starter motors for a Tyne propping open the garage doors the reason 1and 2 arn't running is the lack of said motors the originals are beyond repair and overhaul. and of course WE have no spares.
thanks once again
by the bye is there anyone in PPruneland know of anyone with 1 or2 electric starter motors for a Tyne propping open the garage doors the reason 1and 2 arn't running is the lack of said motors the originals are beyond repair and overhaul. and of course WE have no spares.
thanks once again
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Vanguard Engine run
Proplinerman, As the man on the other end of the headset from "avionic type" I would like to add my thanks for posting the video.
I cannot upload things to youtube & one of our chaps spent hours putting a short one about the taxi from 2004!!
View that at YouTube - eptaxi1
tristar 500
I cannot upload things to youtube & one of our chaps spent hours putting a short one about the taxi from 2004!!
View that at YouTube - eptaxi1
tristar 500
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Vanguard engines running
Thanks for the compliments. Had a look at the 2004 video-superb! It actually took over five hours(!) to upload my video, because it was 2gb in size, but I think it was worth it. There's another video on You Tube, shot the same day, by someone standing behind me and you can actually see me shooting my video throughout that!
Thank you Proplinerman. Excellent video. My one experience with the Vanguard was a trip from Montreal to London Ontario, with TCA, in 1965. I was totally impressed with the smoothness of the flight, my experience being on DC-3's up to that point.