TAA and the DC-9
Silly Old Git
Did it happen? 
Shiny new TATAs(AA) 733 over the GAFA
TATAs (AA)733 calls passing AN 733 on company
" I say old chap, how does one get this bloody level change thingy to work?"
Shiny new TATAs(AA) 733 over the GAFA
TATAs (AA)733 calls passing AN 733 on company
" I say old chap, how does one get this bloody level change thingy to work?"
Last edited by tinpis; 23rd Feb 2009 at 21:34. Reason: wat tipsy said
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My apologies ... it was a type and I did mean the 727 
Eastwest loco
Yep, I dealt with Ron Stone and Dudley Bellchambers (at DPO and BWT respectively) and without fail, nearly every Friday, we'd have a discussion around which way the round robin 997 998 evening Fokker flight for the following week would be routed ... service BWT first or DPO ?
With regard to the freighter, sometimes the 2211 DC9 would not return to the mainland as the scheduled 498 HBA LST MEL service, instead coming back as a dedicated 2212 HBA MEL
As for the four digit flight numbers, we assigend (generally) 1900 to 1940 for specials and predominantly, they were for groups on the east coast operations.
Eventually, we migrated to the three digit series (and two digit if necessary) where we could, primarily for "specials" or ad hoc inventory allocated to each of the city pairs. For example, we had a scheduled 414 416 and 418 MEL SYD operation ..... 412 at that time had never been used but eventually became a routine MEL 0600 SYD 0710 service.
Eastwest loco
Yep, I dealt with Ron Stone and Dudley Bellchambers (at DPO and BWT respectively) and without fail, nearly every Friday, we'd have a discussion around which way the round robin 997 998 evening Fokker flight for the following week would be routed ... service BWT first or DPO ?
With regard to the freighter, sometimes the 2211 DC9 would not return to the mainland as the scheduled 498 HBA LST MEL service, instead coming back as a dedicated 2212 HBA MEL
As for the four digit flight numbers, we assigend (generally) 1900 to 1940 for specials and predominantly, they were for groups on the east coast operations.
Eventually, we migrated to the three digit series (and two digit if necessary) where we could, primarily for "specials" or ad hoc inventory allocated to each of the city pairs. For example, we had a scheduled 414 416 and 418 MEL SYD operation ..... 412 at that time had never been used but eventually became a routine MEL 0600 SYD 0710 service.
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tinpis, I believe the origin of your tale was somewhere near Adeliade soon after Australian got their shiny new 737-300s. As has been discussed at length here on other threads, the learning curve from the -9 to the 733 was steep to the point of being past vertical, particularly since Australian management had forgotten to allow for line training in the very tight plan they'd drawn up to introduce the new aeroplane.
Someone will doubtlesly correct me if I've got it wrong, but I think line training was four sectors, and there'd be few newcomers to the 733 from the -9 who'd consider that adequate.
Scene: Australian 73 is asked to descend by ATC. The 73 pilot responds. Pause. ATC asks 73 to call leaving. 73 acknowledges. Pause. ATC: "(c/s), have you left 310?" "Standby." Long pause. Second voice (the AN 733 also on frequency): "Press Level Change." "(c/s) left flight level 310."
Someone will doubtlesly correct me if I've got it wrong, but I think line training was four sectors, and there'd be few newcomers to the 733 from the -9 who'd consider that adequate.
Scene: Australian 73 is asked to descend by ATC. The 73 pilot responds. Pause. ATC asks 73 to call leaving. 73 acknowledges. Pause. ATC: "(c/s), have you left 310?" "Standby." Long pause. Second voice (the AN 733 also on frequency): "Press Level Change." "(c/s) left flight level 310."
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How do you make it go up
Had a similar experience between Rocky & Mackay during the introduction of the 733 into TAA/Australian.
TJ* (can't recall callsign) enroute to CNS was at 290, we were at 310, he requested 330 and after ATC checked DME's from ROK was assigned 330. Quite some time passed and ATC asked had he left 290. "Negative" was the response, followed shortly thereafter by a request to see us on our company frequency (obviously didn't want their own to hear what he was about to ask !!). Upon switching over he asked "How do you make this thing go up". On suggesting LVL CHG be selected his response was "yep, there she goes, thanks I owe you a beer" and shortly thereafter they reported "left FL290".
On a similar note we were flight planning in MEL one morning and the TAA crew were whinging and bitching that they couldn't " go down and slow down in this little bast**d". I enquired as to what their problem was and was regailed with the old "In the diesel (DC9)I could pass over SYD NDB (GFD these days) at @ 300 kts and land straight in on Rwy 07, but I can't with this machine". "Of course you can", I retorted and left it at that.
We got away first on the East Coast Air Race and SYD Rwy 07 was duty runway, I was just turning off the runway when we heard him going around.
Both crews overnighted in CNS that night and he finally caught up with me and was somewhat miffed that he hadn't been able to achieve the 3000' x 300 kts @ 10 nm and land straight in. I then advised that it could be done but only if you were at 1000'.
But then in those days it was "fun" flying and there was good natured rivalry and both companies crews got on very well together, not quite the same today !!!
TJ* (can't recall callsign) enroute to CNS was at 290, we were at 310, he requested 330 and after ATC checked DME's from ROK was assigned 330. Quite some time passed and ATC asked had he left 290. "Negative" was the response, followed shortly thereafter by a request to see us on our company frequency (obviously didn't want their own to hear what he was about to ask !!). Upon switching over he asked "How do you make this thing go up". On suggesting LVL CHG be selected his response was "yep, there she goes, thanks I owe you a beer" and shortly thereafter they reported "left FL290".
On a similar note we were flight planning in MEL one morning and the TAA crew were whinging and bitching that they couldn't " go down and slow down in this little bast**d". I enquired as to what their problem was and was regailed with the old "In the diesel (DC9)I could pass over SYD NDB (GFD these days) at @ 300 kts and land straight in on Rwy 07, but I can't with this machine". "Of course you can", I retorted and left it at that.
We got away first on the East Coast Air Race and SYD Rwy 07 was duty runway, I was just turning off the runway when we heard him going around.
Both crews overnighted in CNS that night and he finally caught up with me and was somewhat miffed that he hadn't been able to achieve the 3000' x 300 kts @ 10 nm and land straight in. I then advised that it could be done but only if you were at 1000'.
But then in those days it was "fun" flying and there was good natured rivalry and both companies crews got on very well together, not quite the same today !!!
Last edited by emudodo; 24th Feb 2009 at 05:15. Reason: typo
Thread Starter
Thanks EWL, for the answer on TAA running the DC-9 as a freighter.
Stupid question time, why was Ansett allowed to purchase the B737-200 in the early 80's as I was under the impression that during the two airline agreement both carriers had to operate the same equipment or have the same number of seats on the market?
Stupid question time, why was Ansett allowed to purchase the B737-200 in the early 80's as I was under the impression that during the two airline agreement both carriers had to operate the same equipment or have the same number of seats on the market?
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Stationair8, there are 2 answers to your question.
The first answer has been given by sixtiesrelic
Secondly, the capacity for example between Sydney & Melbourne remained equal as TN operated the AB3 with 220 (or there abouts) seats every 2 hours and AN operated the 732 hourly with some 112 seats. The 'capacity' therefore remained the same. That was the theory anyway.
The first answer has been given by sixtiesrelic
Secondly, the capacity for example between Sydney & Melbourne remained equal as TN operated the AB3 with 220 (or there abouts) seats every 2 hours and AN operated the 732 hourly with some 112 seats. The 'capacity' therefore remained the same. That was the theory anyway.
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If my memory is correct, the Beech A80 intro in Tasmania was delayed for some reason, so TAA based a DC3 plus crew in HBA until the Beech was delivered. Some where at home I have a photo of the DC3 and A80 on the tarmac with a TAA 727 on crew training doing a missed approach off the ILS. Hobart at that stage had not being upgraded to take the DC9 or 727. I will dig the photo out next time I am home.
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Please forgive me if some of these stories have already been told . . . many will remember Alan XXX, the ex AN DC-9 Captain who took up ground instructing for RMIT at Essendon (and later Point Cook I think). He was an ex maths/science teacher and I did my CPL, IREX and ATPL subjects with him – and he always had a great story to tell.
Like the DC-9 ‘in flight’ refuelling when they flew from Sydney to Perth – they would plan for Adelaide with correct reserves and immediately ‘divert’ to Perth once airborne.
He also told me about the night Tullamarine opened when he and a FO relocated all the AN DC-9’s from Essendon. The story went that they took off from Essendon on RW26 and landed at MEL on RW34 – and they didn’t retract the gear, did a right turn onto finals and landed. Then they jumped in a taxi and did it over again until they where done.
And then there was the time when he did the high weight flapless landing at MEL – there was dreadful banging coming from somewhere (an inspection door from memory).
The difficulty in getting new pilots not to over flair the DC-9 was another favourite subject – it was apparently easy to drive the main gear into the runway with an over zealous flair.
Alan apparently made his way through the DC fleet – 3, 4 and 6. He told us about the broomstick he used to ‘fly’ the autopilot from the jump seat of the DC-6 – the two front seats were by far the most comfortable in the cockpit and the Captain and FO were not going to get out of them even when they were asleep while the aircraft was droning over the Bight.
I cannot verify any of these stories – but they kept me and my classmates amused at the time. And he is such a nice guy.
Cheers
Pedota
Like the DC-9 ‘in flight’ refuelling when they flew from Sydney to Perth – they would plan for Adelaide with correct reserves and immediately ‘divert’ to Perth once airborne.
He also told me about the night Tullamarine opened when he and a FO relocated all the AN DC-9’s from Essendon. The story went that they took off from Essendon on RW26 and landed at MEL on RW34 – and they didn’t retract the gear, did a right turn onto finals and landed. Then they jumped in a taxi and did it over again until they where done.
And then there was the time when he did the high weight flapless landing at MEL – there was dreadful banging coming from somewhere (an inspection door from memory).
The difficulty in getting new pilots not to over flair the DC-9 was another favourite subject – it was apparently easy to drive the main gear into the runway with an over zealous flair.
Alan apparently made his way through the DC fleet – 3, 4 and 6. He told us about the broomstick he used to ‘fly’ the autopilot from the jump seat of the DC-6 – the two front seats were by far the most comfortable in the cockpit and the Captain and FO were not going to get out of them even when they were asleep while the aircraft was droning over the Bight.
I cannot verify any of these stories – but they kept me and my classmates amused at the time. And he is such a nice guy.
Cheers
Pedota
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Pedota, I can confirm one of your tales - the 'roll on' technique used to land the -9 (by AN at least). A mini flare when you figured it was right, then a smooth but positive push forward of the yoke to oooozzze the mains on (if you got it right!!).
It's been said a half dozen times already on this thread, but from a pilot's point of view at least, it really was the creme de la creme of airliners.
In retrospect, (as I'm about to go to bed to rest before a 14 hour fight), one of the really good things about the -9 was its lack of endurance. It was like a wind up toy - you filled her up with Avtur and went like hell to get back on the ground before the spring wound down, which even with full tanks, would be no longer than 4 hours later. Bliss!
This lack of endurance, (along with the Sydney curfew), usually ensured -9 crews of gentlemen's hours, (unless you were trekking in the dead of night up the north west coast of WA).
I have to admit though that the lack of endurance made for some... shall we say *put hairs on your chest* do I divert or don't I decision making, especially on the evening milk run between BNE and CNS when the Queensland weather was not at its best and at Rockie and Mackay at least, non precision approaches the only option you had to get in.
I recall doing that trip one night with one of the most senior Sydney-based hosties in the company as the senior FA. To say she was a hard-bitten old boiler (thanks for that, Sir Reg) would be the understatement of all time. (I'm told she had the franchise for the lemon all the Sydney girls sucked each day at sign on.
) We made it in to Mackay, breaking visual right on the minima after being shaken like a small toy from TOPD with 100 lbs above min divert fuel, and the rain that was coming down as we taxied in was almost a solid sheet of water.
She stuck her head into the cockpit as we turned off the runway and said "I will never again say that you guys are overpaid."
Of course she did.
It's been said a half dozen times already on this thread, but from a pilot's point of view at least, it really was the creme de la creme of airliners.
In retrospect, (as I'm about to go to bed to rest before a 14 hour fight), one of the really good things about the -9 was its lack of endurance. It was like a wind up toy - you filled her up with Avtur and went like hell to get back on the ground before the spring wound down, which even with full tanks, would be no longer than 4 hours later. Bliss!
This lack of endurance, (along with the Sydney curfew), usually ensured -9 crews of gentlemen's hours, (unless you were trekking in the dead of night up the north west coast of WA).
I have to admit though that the lack of endurance made for some... shall we say *put hairs on your chest* do I divert or don't I decision making, especially on the evening milk run between BNE and CNS when the Queensland weather was not at its best and at Rockie and Mackay at least, non precision approaches the only option you had to get in.
I recall doing that trip one night with one of the most senior Sydney-based hosties in the company as the senior FA. To say she was a hard-bitten old boiler (thanks for that, Sir Reg) would be the understatement of all time. (I'm told she had the franchise for the lemon all the Sydney girls sucked each day at sign on.
) We made it in to Mackay, breaking visual right on the minima after being shaken like a small toy from TOPD with 100 lbs above min divert fuel, and the rain that was coming down as we taxied in was almost a solid sheet of water. She stuck her head into the cockpit as we turned off the runway and said "I will never again say that you guys are overpaid."
Of course she did.
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mocpac
I think you will find the "specials" into NW Tas were under 284* and close number series. ie: TN2840/TN2841 etc. They became TN973/TN974 etc.
By the time I got a handle on to things you must have been onto noiser things like the 2 and 3 holers.
Ray Stone and Duddles Bellchambers are still about as is Laurie McGuire and I see the regularly. Darrel Maney who was Manager TN DPO sadly passed away late last year. He never got over the loss of his lovely wife Bevseveral years before. So is Leon (coogee bear) Collins, and Rod Elliot has a couple of high class gift shops called the Elliott Collection in Fitzroy and I think Essendon.
Thanks Al - excellent pics - but I am a Victorian by birth.
Nobody's perfect
Least of all me.
Best all
EWL
I think you will find the "specials" into NW Tas were under 284* and close number series. ie: TN2840/TN2841 etc. They became TN973/TN974 etc.
By the time I got a handle on to things you must have been onto noiser things like the 2 and 3 holers.
Ray Stone and Duddles Bellchambers are still about as is Laurie McGuire and I see the regularly. Darrel Maney who was Manager TN DPO sadly passed away late last year. He never got over the loss of his lovely wife Bevseveral years before. So is Leon (coogee bear) Collins, and Rod Elliot has a couple of high class gift shops called the Elliott Collection in Fitzroy and I think Essendon.
Thanks Al - excellent pics - but I am a Victorian by birth.
Nobody's perfect
Least of all me.
Best all
EWL
Pedota, That story about re-planning in the air is true. Today it is now standard procedure, up here we call it 'Re-dispatch', we often leave the west coast of Obama Land without the 'normal' fuel required and re-calculate on route. At home in Aus it was 'variable reserve', up here it's 'contingency fuel' and is re-calculated to make east coast of Asia. At least it keeps us awake trying to work out if we can make it or not. On the other topic about changing to the 737, Ansett flew both the 200 and the 300 at the same time which kept ones brain working, always suprised me the Dept of Changing Names allowed that.
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Diesel 9
It was called the Diesel 9 because one of the TAA skipper's little son couldnt manage DeeCeeNine and called it the desilnine..... the rest is history. It was also called "the crowbar" .........
Yes I did 3, 4, 9 and B717 (or as I prefer to call it MD95 EFD qv) If you loved the nine you would go orgasmic over the 71.
The best day of my life was coming home after 10 years away on the A320 back to the Nine (B717). And flying out of Bay 4 in what was the old TAA finger. Talk about deja vu!
After over 10,000 hrs on the airframe (DC9 and 717) I would swap any aircraft to go back to the Nine again.
God Bless Her and all that flew Her. (wipes tears from eyes.......)
I havnt had time to read all the pages yet; but 22 pages??? How cool is that? They were indeed good days.
Yes I did 3, 4, 9 and B717 (or as I prefer to call it MD95 EFD qv) If you loved the nine you would go orgasmic over the 71.
The best day of my life was coming home after 10 years away on the A320 back to the Nine (B717). And flying out of Bay 4 in what was the old TAA finger. Talk about deja vu!
After over 10,000 hrs on the airframe (DC9 and 717) I would swap any aircraft to go back to the Nine again.
God Bless Her and all that flew Her. (wipes tears from eyes.......)
I havnt had time to read all the pages yet; but 22 pages??? How cool is that? They were indeed good days.
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Eastwest
Yep, you're right ...I was referring however to jet specials, not the F27s. If memory serves me well, the 2830 series were adhoc addcaps for Burnie and the 2840s for Devonport.
Yep, you're right ...I was referring however to jet specials, not the F27s. If memory serves me well, the 2830 series were adhoc addcaps for Burnie and the 2840s for Devonport.
Here are a couple of Mc Donnell Douglas publicity photos I have, of aircraft that didn't make it into TAA.
I guess the DC-10 was their answer to the TAA wide body requirement, but I doubt that it was seriously considered as it was too big. As it was, the A300 may have also been a bit much at the time of it's introduction, as I can well recall (at least in BNE) having DC-9 and B 727 flights cancelled just to fill the thing up with a reasonable load. Of course Ansett with the addition of the B737-200 at the same time while delaying their widebody introduction, was able to offer frequency and it did not take the "punters" long to figure out which was better!!!
The MD 80 was a contender as a replacement for the DC-9 and the B 727 according to a copy of the 1980-81 Annual Report I have. Other contenders according to the report, were the B737-300, A320, "McDonnell Douglas/Fokker MDF 100 (guess that was someting that at the time McD and Fokker were into) and the Boeing 7-7. Eventually, the 737-300 came in 1986 as TAA soldiered on with 9 upgraded DC-9's and the A300's and 727's.
I can recall seeing a demonstrator MD-80 down at Tulla sometime around 1980, being shown to Ansett and TAA.
I guess the DC-10 was their answer to the TAA wide body requirement, but I doubt that it was seriously considered as it was too big. As it was, the A300 may have also been a bit much at the time of it's introduction, as I can well recall (at least in BNE) having DC-9 and B 727 flights cancelled just to fill the thing up with a reasonable load. Of course Ansett with the addition of the B737-200 at the same time while delaying their widebody introduction, was able to offer frequency and it did not take the "punters" long to figure out which was better!!!
The MD 80 was a contender as a replacement for the DC-9 and the B 727 according to a copy of the 1980-81 Annual Report I have. Other contenders according to the report, were the B737-300, A320, "McDonnell Douglas/Fokker MDF 100 (guess that was someting that at the time McD and Fokker were into) and the Boeing 7-7. Eventually, the 737-300 came in 1986 as TAA soldiered on with 9 upgraded DC-9's and the A300's and 727's.
I can recall seeing a demonstrator MD-80 down at Tulla sometime around 1980, being shown to Ansett and TAA.