TAA and the DC-9
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tsnake,
I stand to be corrected here but I thought there was pressure from TAA to get the Caravelle but the two airline policy brought it all undone when Ansett said no
. So all and sundry got the Lockeed Electra instead. 
Now back to the 9. My last ride in a 9 (lets leave out the 717 for the moment) was one of Ansetts, 1981 Melbourne to Hobart. One of the hosties referred to it as "an old rattler". I didn't have the heart to tell her it was a lot more fun than one of them fancy 737s that I'd flown in from Canberra.
I stand to be corrected here but I thought there was pressure from TAA to get the Caravelle but the two airline policy brought it all undone when Ansett said no
. So all and sundry got the Lockeed Electra instead. Now back to the 9. My last ride in a 9 (lets leave out the 717 for the moment) was one of Ansetts, 1981 Melbourne to Hobart. One of the hosties referred to it as "an old rattler". I didn't have the heart to tell her it was a lot more fun than one of them fancy 737s that I'd flown in from Canberra.
Last edited by PLovett; 21st Mar 2009 at 06:21.
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Electras
Wiley,
Not sure about the Electras. Where are you Gordon Reid? If memory serves correctly the TN/AN L188s came down the line at Burbank one after the other and VH-TLA and VH-RMA entered service on the same day.
The only time I can recall aircraft actually being swapped was when TN was forced to take ex-ANA DC-6Bs and give AN Viscounts to even things up after Reg gobbled up ANA.
Not sure about the Electras. Where are you Gordon Reid? If memory serves correctly the TN/AN L188s came down the line at Burbank one after the other and VH-TLA and VH-RMA entered service on the same day.
The only time I can recall aircraft actually being swapped was when TN was forced to take ex-ANA DC-6Bs and give AN Viscounts to even things up after Reg gobbled up ANA.
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Be a bit of problem for TAA to have to pick up the DC-6's from Ansett, from memory TAA didn't previously have the -6 on their licence. There would have been a lot of paperwork and training for little reward.
I stand to be corrected here but I thought there was pressure from TAA to get the Caravelle but the two airline policy brought it all undone when Ansett said no . So all and dundry got the Lockeed Electra instead.
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Electra purchase
Try this for size: OF needed to dump 1049s and Lockheed offered decent trade in only IF "Australia" bought 10 or more Electras. Have forgotten how many we all ended up with.
Seem to remember neither AN/TN were that happy.
Back to the 9,having flown as pax "Standby/Subload/First Firm" etc on over 50 different A/c types over nearly 30 years late 50s --80s TNs 9s' were my all time favorite A/c. Many many sectors were flown as QF had limited ops and we were in bed with TN rather than AN.
The privilege of being invited to sit in the jump seat for landings on another carriers A/c
is still warmly remembered today.
Seem to remember neither AN/TN were that happy.
Back to the 9,having flown as pax "Standby/Subload/First Firm" etc on over 50 different A/c types over nearly 30 years late 50s --80s TNs 9s' were my all time favorite A/c. Many many sectors were flown as QF had limited ops and we were in bed with TN rather than AN.
The privilege of being invited to sit in the jump seat for landings on another carriers A/c
is still warmly remembered today.
Think it was like this: TAA wanted Caravelles but Reg Ansett, worried about the financial impact of the recently completed ANA takeover was worried that the jump to pure jets would be too big a simultaneous burden.
Robert Menzies gave Reg whatever he wanted, as the Liberal Party was philosophically opposed to TAA, (being a nationalized institution and Labour creation). Thus Reg preferred the less onerous step to the turboprop Electra, although some of the pro-British camp in Menzies' group wanted The Vickers Vanguard (and even Handley Page Herald) alternative!
Regarding the DC6's, again I think that Menzies disliked the advances that TAA had made via intelligent aircraft selection (Convairs, Viscounts etc) viewing these as putting Ansett at a disdvantage and as part of the Two-Airline agreement forced TAA to surrender a number of superior Viscounts in return for DC6's. It was one of these ex-TAA Viscounts that crashed into Botany Bay.
Happy to be corrected if my facts are wrong.
Robert Menzies gave Reg whatever he wanted, as the Liberal Party was philosophically opposed to TAA, (being a nationalized institution and Labour creation). Thus Reg preferred the less onerous step to the turboprop Electra, although some of the pro-British camp in Menzies' group wanted The Vickers Vanguard (and even Handley Page Herald) alternative!
Regarding the DC6's, again I think that Menzies disliked the advances that TAA had made via intelligent aircraft selection (Convairs, Viscounts etc) viewing these as putting Ansett at a disdvantage and as part of the Two-Airline agreement forced TAA to surrender a number of superior Viscounts in return for DC6's. It was one of these ex-TAA Viscounts that crashed into Botany Bay.
Happy to be corrected if my facts are wrong.
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This was on that newfangled modern YouTube thing:
YouTube - The Aircraft & Colours of TAA - Part 1
Quite enjoyed that.
YouTube - The Aircraft & Colours of TAA - Part 1
Quite enjoyed that.
Whilst the story behind the DC6/Viscount swap has no relevance to the 9 it is interesting.
After I was cleared to the line in Viscounts in 63, I studied for my ATPL subjects at RMIT in Mel. Our lecturer for Nav n Flt Planning was Bill Kennedy, long time Nav Officer for AN.
The subject of the above came up in Flt Planning and he said the run ADL-PER was the longest Viscount run in the world. In fact we used a "Howgozit" chart which got a LOT of attention from the Capt. Most times we were only cleared to a/b KGL and if we had not used our 10% it just gave us enuff to get to PER.
I remember him saying that the Turboprop Viscount had better public appeal than the 6 but was creating problems for TAA on the ADL-PER sector. Pax on TAA would taxi past the AN 6 running up at ADL and would T/O first but on arr in PER the AN 6 would be already there curtesy of the ability to fly at 2500' with a much lower h/w.
After TAA had 1 or maybe 2 incidents of running out of fuel taxying in at PER the decision was made by someone to instigate the swap.Naturally the story was spun to be seen as AN getting the best of the deal when that was not the case.
It was a trip that could blow up in your face. The worst I had was in July of 64 with Mike Price. We were in an 800 and TAA had one of our 6's. Very strong winds forced us to refuel in Forrest as we could not even make KGL.
We had to operate as high as we could get and thus in the lower edge of a jetstream while our cousins were down at 2500' and probably carrying Meekatharra as alternate as well as holding!
By the time we arrived in PER the others were probably in bed after having a couple of beers.
Re the Caravelle..TAA were keen to get them. Not sure why RM preferred the L188 but as I remember DCA prefered the Electra because it involved less work/expense upgrading runways and the Govt of the day seemed inclined to favour AN in order that their 2 Airline Policy would succeed. Great days they were....the possibility to fly DC3/B170/F27/DC4/DC6/Viscount/L188/DC9/B727
Emeritus
After I was cleared to the line in Viscounts in 63, I studied for my ATPL subjects at RMIT in Mel. Our lecturer for Nav n Flt Planning was Bill Kennedy, long time Nav Officer for AN.
The subject of the above came up in Flt Planning and he said the run ADL-PER was the longest Viscount run in the world. In fact we used a "Howgozit" chart which got a LOT of attention from the Capt. Most times we were only cleared to a/b KGL and if we had not used our 10% it just gave us enuff to get to PER.
I remember him saying that the Turboprop Viscount had better public appeal than the 6 but was creating problems for TAA on the ADL-PER sector. Pax on TAA would taxi past the AN 6 running up at ADL and would T/O first but on arr in PER the AN 6 would be already there curtesy of the ability to fly at 2500' with a much lower h/w.
After TAA had 1 or maybe 2 incidents of running out of fuel taxying in at PER the decision was made by someone to instigate the swap.Naturally the story was spun to be seen as AN getting the best of the deal when that was not the case.
It was a trip that could blow up in your face. The worst I had was in July of 64 with Mike Price. We were in an 800 and TAA had one of our 6's. Very strong winds forced us to refuel in Forrest as we could not even make KGL.
We had to operate as high as we could get and thus in the lower edge of a jetstream while our cousins were down at 2500' and probably carrying Meekatharra as alternate as well as holding!
By the time we arrived in PER the others were probably in bed after having a couple of beers.
Re the Caravelle..TAA were keen to get them. Not sure why RM preferred the L188 but as I remember DCA prefered the Electra because it involved less work/expense upgrading runways and the Govt of the day seemed inclined to favour AN in order that their 2 Airline Policy would succeed. Great days they were....the possibility to fly DC3/B170/F27/DC4/DC6/Viscount/L188/DC9/B727
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A flight attendant called the 9 "a old rattler"? Have her hunted down, tarred and feathered, and she was working on a 737???!! No class what so ever! The Nine, she was a lover to us all, the 737, oh dear, a handy little Volvo with hubcaps, does her job, but once a maggot, always a maggot, nobody would ever call the 9 a maggot, a little bitch yes, but never a maggot. A old rattler indeed, only a woman would say that.
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Obie
TN was first with the 727-76. The aeroplane was Tango Juliet Alpha and I was on the observation deck at Essendon (MEB) to watch her first arrival into Melbourne. Still remember the amazing roar of the reverst thrust.
As for the DC9, I cannot remember. Lost in the mists of time.
Best all
EWL
TN was first with the 727-76. The aeroplane was Tango Juliet Alpha and I was on the observation deck at Essendon (MEB) to watch her first arrival into Melbourne. Still remember the amazing roar of the reverst thrust.
As for the DC9, I cannot remember. Lost in the mists of time.
Best all
EWL
Unles I am wrong Ansett-ANA's B727 was the first to land
This story below was taken from Aviaition archives published in the " Airliner " Magazine and I believe it is correct
.
The first Boeing 727-76 for Trans-Australia Airlines was the 72nd aircraft off the production line at Boeing’s Renton facility in Seattle and registered as VH-TJA, was rolled out on July 24, 1964. Later named James Cook, VH-TJA made its first flight from Renton on August 25. Under the command of Capt. D. A. Winch (Flight Superintendent Training) and Capt. K. J. Fox (Boeing 727 Flight Captain), Juliet Alpha was ferried from Seattle to Melbourne via San Francisco, Honolulu, Canton Island and Nadi. It is interesting to note that it was not until delivery of its sixth and last 727-76 (VH-TJF) that TAA eliminated the technical fuel stop on the US West Coast and ferried aircraft direct from Seattle to the Hawaiian Islands.
On October 16, 1964 VH-TJA in company with Ansett-ANA’s first 727-77 (VH-RME) arrived over Melbourne, which was the headquarters to both airlines. Ansett-ANA had previously won the toss of the coin which allowed its aircraft to land first. Both 727s made several passes over the city before landing at Essendon Airport, heralding a new age in Australian domestic air travel.
.
The first Boeing 727-76 for Trans-Australia Airlines was the 72nd aircraft off the production line at Boeing’s Renton facility in Seattle and registered as VH-TJA, was rolled out on July 24, 1964. Later named James Cook, VH-TJA made its first flight from Renton on August 25. Under the command of Capt. D. A. Winch (Flight Superintendent Training) and Capt. K. J. Fox (Boeing 727 Flight Captain), Juliet Alpha was ferried from Seattle to Melbourne via San Francisco, Honolulu, Canton Island and Nadi. It is interesting to note that it was not until delivery of its sixth and last 727-76 (VH-TJF) that TAA eliminated the technical fuel stop on the US West Coast and ferried aircraft direct from Seattle to the Hawaiian Islands.
On October 16, 1964 VH-TJA in company with Ansett-ANA’s first 727-77 (VH-RME) arrived over Melbourne, which was the headquarters to both airlines. Ansett-ANA had previously won the toss of the coin which allowed its aircraft to land first. Both 727s made several passes over the city before landing at Essendon Airport, heralding a new age in Australian domestic air travel.
Last edited by RodH; 21st Mar 2009 at 22:32.
RodH. If my memory serves me correct TAA (Don Winch) won the toss to land first but due to a wind change the duty runway became the short N/S runway. As the 'cameras' were set up for a landing on the E/W runway Ansett-ANA (Arthur Lovell) decided to stick with the original plan despite the X/W and landed before Don Winch.
I am surprised that there has been no mention of the VH-TJP incident at MEL on R/W 27 in 1978. Capt Mike Crooke and F/O Robert Lupton had a 'close shave' when they touched 192 metres short of the threshold.
The main landing gear struck and destroyed 6 high intensity approach lights. The bottom of the left engine cowl and a section of the lower aft fuselage as well as the right hand main gear were damaged by the impact.
3 mins before touchdown the IAS was 244 kts and at touchdown 171 kts
Due to the AFAP the cockpit audio record evidence was not available to the incident investigators.
The main landing gear struck and destroyed 6 high intensity approach lights. The bottom of the left engine cowl and a section of the lower aft fuselage as well as the right hand main gear were damaged by the impact.
3 mins before touchdown the IAS was 244 kts and at touchdown 171 kts
Due to the AFAP the cockpit audio record evidence was not available to the incident investigators.
Back to the subject :Dc 9's
Dear all
lets get back to the dc-9 thanks !
Capt Mike Crooke was a dear friend of my father (Capt John Humphreys) and lets leave it at that about dredging up names and past incidents please !
by all means let us learn about past "experience's" and "armchair" expert's go elsewhere thanks !
like all jet aircraft the dc-9 and b727 all suffered when a stable approach was not performed and maintained ; my father would recall that it was a massive learning curve with respect to early configuration of the aircraft (so that you did not have high sink rates on final).
this was a common problem right across the world with the introduction of jet equipment where previously there had been only collective exprience with turb-prop aircraft .
you could not let these aircraft maintain "high sink rates" near the ground ; otherwise it would bite your backside !
cheers
dijon moutard
lets get back to the dc-9 thanks !
Capt Mike Crooke was a dear friend of my father (Capt John Humphreys) and lets leave it at that about dredging up names and past incidents please !
by all means let us learn about past "experience's" and "armchair" expert's go elsewhere thanks !
like all jet aircraft the dc-9 and b727 all suffered when a stable approach was not performed and maintained ; my father would recall that it was a massive learning curve with respect to early configuration of the aircraft (so that you did not have high sink rates on final).
this was a common problem right across the world with the introduction of jet equipment where previously there had been only collective exprience with turb-prop aircraft .
you could not let these aircraft maintain "high sink rates" near the ground ; otherwise it would bite your backside !
cheers
dijon moutard
TAA landed VH-TJJ at Essendon on April 13th '67 ahead of Ansett-ANA's VH-CZB.