Dan Air 1008
Jesus, anyone would think I am a hack from the Sun trying to dig up titbits on sworded vicars etc.
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BOAC
No, I did not get the video from your link. I actually have a video recording of the original transmission.
Incidentally, also on the same tape which may be of interest to you, is a recording of the original 1986 programme 'A Pilots Life'. This follows the working life of a long haul crew operating a BA flight from London to Sydney and features Cpt. Ted Deakon and amongst others, a young F/O Lynn Barton who as Cpt. had the distinction of landing the first aircraft at LHR T5.
Let no one say A Pilots Life is not a glamorous one.
Incidentally, also on the same tape which may be of interest to you, is a recording of the original 1986 programme 'A Pilots Life'. This follows the working life of a long haul crew operating a BA flight from London to Sydney and features Cpt. Ted Deakon and amongst others, a young F/O Lynn Barton who as Cpt. had the distinction of landing the first aircraft at LHR T5.
Let no one say A Pilots Life is not a glamorous one.
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If the program is just for history aviation buffs - fine. It won't make any money.
If it's for the general public then forget it - it will just be scaremongering. The individuals (crew and ATC) were just doing the best they could on the day, unfortunately TFN is an airport with grotty weather and difficult terrain. Aviation has come a long way since then, and lessons learned at the time are now incorporated in civil aviaton throughout the world. A similar accident is very unlikely.
The aircraft used these days are of a design and technology that is much safer to fly. Situational awareness in the cockpit is ten times what it was in those days. The crews are better trained. The culture of safety in most airlines and of the ATC system is light years ahead of what was accepted 20-30 years ago.
I didn't know the crew, but I did work for Dan-air in the 1980s flying the B727 and now I fly Airbus for a UK airline.
So I say forget your planned documentary and try something else. Let them rest in peace.
If it's for the general public then forget it - it will just be scaremongering. The individuals (crew and ATC) were just doing the best they could on the day, unfortunately TFN is an airport with grotty weather and difficult terrain. Aviation has come a long way since then, and lessons learned at the time are now incorporated in civil aviaton throughout the world. A similar accident is very unlikely.
The aircraft used these days are of a design and technology that is much safer to fly. Situational awareness in the cockpit is ten times what it was in those days. The crews are better trained. The culture of safety in most airlines and of the ATC system is light years ahead of what was accepted 20-30 years ago.
I didn't know the crew, but I did work for Dan-air in the 1980s flying the B727 and now I fly Airbus for a UK airline.
So I say forget your planned documentary and try something else. Let them rest in peace.
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i am sorry I have to say this:
Capt Insensible and Royhudd are way out of line. No accident is off limits to evaluation and rehashing the events which caused relevant death and destruction in our industry. If you want respect for the dead: go to church. This is PPrune and no discussion of human error is off limits. I am disgusted with the arrogance and disregard for safety that these substandard posters feel they have to force on the rest of us.
Shame on you substandard sanctimonious prudes.
Furthermore, the mindless censorship at this site is deplorable. How can I know what's going on if unqualified flight attendants censor the posts of this thread? I understand that you don't comprehend the material and feel to be safe you have to erase everything questionable; but please stop it!
pacplyer
Capt Insensible and Royhudd are way out of line. No accident is off limits to evaluation and rehashing the events which caused relevant death and destruction in our industry. If you want respect for the dead: go to church. This is PPrune and no discussion of human error is off limits. I am disgusted with the arrogance and disregard for safety that these substandard posters feel they have to force on the rest of us.
Shame on you substandard sanctimonious prudes.
Furthermore, the mindless censorship at this site is deplorable. How can I know what's going on if unqualified flight attendants censor the posts of this thread? I understand that you don't comprehend the material and feel to be safe you have to erase everything questionable; but please stop it!
pacplyer
Last edited by pacplyer; 1st Jul 2008 at 13:16.
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411A
What a load of hogwash.
Dan Air were only responding to a technique used by the RAF who shut down 2 engines whilst loitering on ops over the Atlantic in their Nimrods whose airframe was based on the venerable Comet and had the same engines.
It was a suggestion in response to the first fuel crisis.
I am ex Dan Air, flew with Red, Mike and Ray and proud of the airline its standards, crews and management.
No I am not willing to contribute, enough has already been said, and will continue to be said in CRM classes for years to come.
I lost many friends on that fateful day.
R.I.P.
What a load of hogwash.
Dan Air were only responding to a technique used by the RAF who shut down 2 engines whilst loitering on ops over the Atlantic in their Nimrods whose airframe was based on the venerable Comet and had the same engines.
It was a suggestion in response to the first fuel crisis.
I am ex Dan Air, flew with Red, Mike and Ray and proud of the airline its standards, crews and management.
No I am not willing to contribute, enough has already been said, and will continue to be said in CRM classes for years to come.
I lost many friends on that fateful day.
R.I.P.
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Dan Air 1008
Hi,
This is my first post as a probationary Ppruner and I hope I am not going to get into hot water with this reply but is this post not "Aviation History & Nostalgia"? Hence, what is the issue with looking at a piece of history that did indeed affect a lot of people and their families.
If bridxb wants to make a documentary then let him do it. I for one as an ex DA employee would be very interested in the end result if it should materialise and I am sure I would not be alone.
I say, go for it and I hope you obtain all the info you need.
D&B
This is my first post as a probationary Ppruner and I hope I am not going to get into hot water with this reply but is this post not "Aviation History & Nostalgia"? Hence, what is the issue with looking at a piece of history that did indeed affect a lot of people and their families.
If bridxb wants to make a documentary then let him do it. I for one as an ex DA employee would be very interested in the end result if it should materialise and I am sure I would not be alone.
I say, go for it and I hope you obtain all the info you need.
D&B
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Dan Air were only responding to a technique used by the RAF who shut down 2 engines whilst loitering on ops over the Atlantic in their Nimrods whose airframe was based on the venerable Comet and had the same engines.
Ergo, thinking flawed at Dan-Air management level, nothing more nor less.
As regards the accident in question, there can be only one conclusion, the operating crew stuffed it up, big time.
It is the crews responsibility to know where they are, especially in an area of known questionable ATC services, at the time.
True then, true today.
There is positively no getting around this.
IF an aircarrier crew cannot operate to rather basic standards with regard to situational awareness, accidents happen, just as in this case.
Ones defending the concerned Dan-Air operating crew might well feel sadness at their demise, and quite rightfully so, however, there is simply no other way to say it....the concerned crew simply were not up to the task, on that particular day.
Period.
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411A. That's amazing. You clearly know c*ck all of the facts preceding the accident. Try ATC's abysmal phraseology - the consequent concern in the cockpit - 'He's taking us into high ground isn't he.........'
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Good old 411A, "subtle as an air raid", but he does talk some sense. The Nimrod shuts down engines at lower altitudes to enable greater loiter time. The problem with shutting down a motor in the cruise, is the cold soak and difficulty in re-lighting. I can understand why the beancounters panicked when fuel prices spiked, as the Comet burnt 4 tonnes per hour with 119 pax.,and flew like a dream on 3.
Canaries ATC were a positive hinderence in this crash, but I suppose the bottom line is that if you are flying into an island with big hills on one side and sea on the other, you need to know where the hills are located at all times. No consolation now, but I understand that if he had kept the wings level on receiving the GPWS, he would have just cleared the peak.
Hopefully with EGPWS and pop up terrain on the ND, not to mention good CRM training, this sort of crash will eventually be a thing of the past.Last millennium when I was a copilot, I used to keep a notebook of the various captains peculiarities, as SOP's were an optional extra.
Canaries ATC were a positive hinderence in this crash, but I suppose the bottom line is that if you are flying into an island with big hills on one side and sea on the other, you need to know where the hills are located at all times. No consolation now, but I understand that if he had kept the wings level on receiving the GPWS, he would have just cleared the peak.
Hopefully with EGPWS and pop up terrain on the ND, not to mention good CRM training, this sort of crash will eventually be a thing of the past.Last millennium when I was a copilot, I used to keep a notebook of the various captains peculiarities, as SOP's were an optional extra.
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Try ATC's abysmal phraseology - the consequent concern in the cockpit - 'He's taking us into high ground isn't he.........'
The problem was, forget, is that the crew simply was not paying attention to exactly where they were....and further, did nothing about it, except express concern.
Not good enough, I'm afraid.
Then...or now.
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Now, lets look at shutting down jet engines in cruise.
Clearly, segajet knows the score, quite unlike some others.
Having said this, and looking on the military side for the moment, I can recall only one type that routinely shut down jet engines in cruise (at 40,000 feet), following which, they were expected to light up just fine (thank you very much) without fail.
That military aeroplane was the ...
Consolidated/Vultee (later, Convair) B-36.
'Tis a fact.
My next door neighbor (Colonel Jim) flew one, and it performed as advertised, with surprisingly superb regularity.
Not perfect, but very good.
Clearly, segajet knows the score, quite unlike some others.
Having said this, and looking on the military side for the moment, I can recall only one type that routinely shut down jet engines in cruise (at 40,000 feet), following which, they were expected to light up just fine (thank you very much) without fail.
That military aeroplane was the ...
Consolidated/Vultee (later, Convair) B-36.
'Tis a fact.
My next door neighbor (Colonel Jim) flew one, and it performed as advertised, with surprisingly superb regularity.
Not perfect, but very good.
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I can recall only one type that routinely shut down jet engines in cruise.
Last edited by forget; 1st Jul 2008 at 18:15. Reason: Add piccy
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411A
Yes the crew were ultimately to blame, but the ATC was a major contributory factor, allowing an Iberia F27 priority over an aircraft already commencing an approach procedure, and telling them at short notice to enter a holding pattern not available on any ICAO chart and only known locally and published on Spanish charts.
There are always multiple factors to a crash, and we should leave this event in the past so that those who lost their lives should rest in peace.
It has no new news value, and unless you have the full facts I suggest you button up and keep uninformed comment to yourself.
You have posted many times over the years mostly with half or ill informed information. Please dont post just to illicit a response, and get your facts right before putting fingers to keyboard.
Our friends on this flight are remembered each year by their colleagues, and we will not forget them.
They are still out there flying that last sector in our hearts.
Please ALL let this sad event rest now and forever.
Yes the crew were ultimately to blame, but the ATC was a major contributory factor, allowing an Iberia F27 priority over an aircraft already commencing an approach procedure, and telling them at short notice to enter a holding pattern not available on any ICAO chart and only known locally and published on Spanish charts.
There are always multiple factors to a crash, and we should leave this event in the past so that those who lost their lives should rest in peace.
It has no new news value, and unless you have the full facts I suggest you button up and keep uninformed comment to yourself.
You have posted many times over the years mostly with half or ill informed information. Please dont post just to illicit a response, and get your facts right before putting fingers to keyboard.
Our friends on this flight are remembered each year by their colleagues, and we will not forget them.
They are still out there flying that last sector in our hearts.
Please ALL let this sad event rest now and forever.
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Furthermore, the mindless censorship at this site is deplorable. How can I know what's going on if unqualified flight attendants censor the posts of this thread? I understand that you don't comprehend the material and feel to be safe you have to erase everything questionable; but please stop it!
Presumably your attempted putdown was addressed to our Moderators on the Cabin Crew Forum. Not only have they had nothing to do with this thread, but I think you will find that they are, in spite of your claim to the contrary, actually very well qualified in their vocations. One is very highly qualified in CRM aspects and teaches it to both flight deck and cabin crews at their airline. You'd probably give them plenty of good material for a class or two I suspect.
Sometimes it is better to have the facts before shooting your mouth off with mistruths and then looking like an idiot to those who have knowledge of the truth.
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And the Lockheed P2V-7 Neptune to say nothing of the Boeing KC-97L and many others.
Don't think so.
Now, I did fly Stratocruisers (close cousin of the KC-97) for a brief while and they had a hard time getting above FL210, normally.
In actual fact, the J47 jet engines on later B-36's could be (mostly) routinely restarted at 50,000 feet, to enable high speed bombing runs.
This was on the 'Featherweight' models, which had much equipment removed to attain these altitudes.
A quite unique airplane, the 'ole B-36, and it kept the Russkies at bay for quite some time.
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If I remember rightly, and I was at a presentation on improving ATC safety in Europe attended by at least one crew member of the British Airtours 707 which was following and monitored G-BDAN, the crew of the 707 listening to the instructions to G-BDAN were equally as confused as to what the instructions really were meant to achieve and, even before the ominous silence from G-BDAN had decided to request a diversion - which they promptly demanded when it became clear G-BDAN was down.
Many CRM lessons were learnt but there was more than one crew concerned and confused by those instructions that day.
BTW was Red Whelan the 727 driver who wore a baseball cap and regularly waved to spectators at MAN?
Many CRM lessons were learnt but there was more than one crew concerned and confused by those instructions that day.
BTW was Red Whelan the 727 driver who wore a baseball cap and regularly waved to spectators at MAN?
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411A, I take exception to your repeated reference to "Russkies" in various threads.
Perhaps you would be happy for you and your compatriots to be referred to as "Yanks" at every juncture?
Perhaps you would be happy for you and your compatriots to be referred to as "Yanks" at every juncture?