Grounding of DC3's
I never heard but I guessed that a stuck prop feathering relay is what caused the Dutch Dakota crash a few years ago. Can anyone confirm that?
The feather check isn't that complicated, push the button, the RPM goes down, look at the load meters, pull the button back, the RPM comes back up, look at the load meters. You do want to give the button a twist before you start because I have seen the little button come off the threaded rod behind it when it was pulled back out.
The feather check isn't that complicated, push the button, the RPM goes down, look at the load meters, pull the button back, the RPM comes back up, look at the load meters. You do want to give the button a twist before you start because I have seen the little button come off the threaded rod behind it when it was pulled back out.
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It has been a while...
I haven't been near a DC-3 since 1981 and I wasn't an expert then. From what I remember, though, the prop feathering system used this ginormous electric motor that must have been designed for some sort of light truck driving an oil pump, all of this improvisation living in the dim and greasy recesses of the gear well, times two. It sure did look agricultural, designed when full-feathering propellers were state-of-the-art along with metal main spars. Too there is that idea of MTBF that makes me prefer new bits to old bits.
I have been lucky to work, for the most part, flying people who had no alternative to that. Air travel in Africa is often non-discretionary shall we say? The idea of flying people who are there just to take a flight seems strange to me, sort of like standing there on the platform with group of train-spotters when I just want to get someplace on the damned thing, not see that it is Engine Number 3486.
That said, I hope this latest fight goes well for those who want to operate the DC-3. If they need someone who still remembers which handle is which back behind my back, I am up for a trip in the right seat, I guess... Nice to think of a machine older than I am!
I have been lucky to work, for the most part, flying people who had no alternative to that. Air travel in Africa is often non-discretionary shall we say? The idea of flying people who are there just to take a flight seems strange to me, sort of like standing there on the platform with group of train-spotters when I just want to get someplace on the damned thing, not see that it is Engine Number 3486.
That said, I hope this latest fight goes well for those who want to operate the DC-3. If they need someone who still remembers which handle is which back behind my back, I am up for a trip in the right seat, I guess... Nice to think of a machine older than I am!
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I never heard but I guessed that a stuck prop feathering relay is what caused the Dutch Dakota crash a few years ago. Can anyone confirm that?
Yes it seems the feathering relay was stuck and the feathering motor kept cycling in and out of feather.
The most simple cure if you are having difficulty holding the button in the out position is turn off the master switch which stops the feathering motor.
The reason the R1830 with the Hamilton Standard props has a feathering motor is the propeller feathering mechanism needs around 1400 PSI pressure to feather the prop..the engine oil pressure is approximately 85 PSI.
With proper maintenance and doing the proper run up checks it is a very reliable system.
Sure these airplanes are old, but I can not think of a more successful design than the DC3.
As far as flying one goes they are a million times more satisfying to fly than flying a modern jet that generally speaking was designed to be smarter than some pilots.
Yes it seems the feathering relay was stuck and the feathering motor kept cycling in and out of feather.
The most simple cure if you are having difficulty holding the button in the out position is turn off the master switch which stops the feathering motor.
The reason the R1830 with the Hamilton Standard props has a feathering motor is the propeller feathering mechanism needs around 1400 PSI pressure to feather the prop..the engine oil pressure is approximately 85 PSI.
With proper maintenance and doing the proper run up checks it is a very reliable system.
Sure these airplanes are old, but I can not think of a more successful design than the DC3.
As far as flying one goes they are a million times more satisfying to fly than flying a modern jet that generally speaking was designed to be smarter than some pilots.
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Sure these airplanes are old, but I can not think of a more successful design than the DC3.
Piston: Douglas DC-6B
Turbine: Fokker F.27 (and Fairchild FH227)
Having flown all four types, they certainly do the job for which they were designed...very economically.
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While I'm am SLF when I worked at LGW I managed to get a few flights, one of which was dead heading back from EMA on a Eastern Airlines DC-3.
It's flights like that I will always remember while trips like the northbound in a very cramped jump seat on a Short's Shed that I will forget.
While reading this thread it did cross my mind that if you approached these EU twit's and asked them to explain what a DC-3 and C-47 was they would not have a clue and would also think, even in basic terms, that they were two completely different types of aircraft.
It's flights like that I will always remember while trips like the northbound in a very cramped jump seat on a Short's Shed that I will forget.
While reading this thread it did cross my mind that if you approached these EU twit's and asked them to explain what a DC-3 and C-47 was they would not have a clue and would also think, even in basic terms, that they were two completely different types of aircraft.
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Burocrats, ah!
In another life I was trying rather hard to find a niche in Greater Germany. This led me to a vast edifice from the Wilhelmine period in Oldenburg, Prussian eagle on the stone-built facade and all. Within was the local office in charge of light commercial aviation, where I wanted a DHC-6 type-rating on my German CPL.
I had just been to Toronto to do the Flight Safety factory course so that I had this diploma with a big gold seal and all... I figured the boxheads should go for this big-time. Boy, was I ever wrong!
I found my Case Officer tucked away in a small office with a wall full of dusty files. I explained that I had just been to Toronto, blah-blah-blah... when he rotated 180° on his throne, grabbed a big set of print-outs and whirled back to start leafing through it. "Day-Hah Sex und Acktzick?" he asked? (DH-86, some elderly biplane airliner, I believe)
This triggered some back and forth dialogue. I told him DHC and he told me it didn't exist and I told him to look again under DHC instead of DH and then he found it after all. Wonderful! NOT!
His Airship the airhead then looked at my lovely diploma and said it was no good at all because it read, "Twin Otter" when all he had in his book was "DHC-6."
I was sat there gaping, saying, "But-but-but... the Twin Otter IS a DHC-6"
He gave me a very self-satisfied, typically German glance and murmured, "How shall I know that?!"
Then we found, under the signature of the FSI Head of Training, the line, "DHC-6" so that was okay. I still had to do a check-ride, though, to get a type-rating that was only good for 12 months.
Then the local Twin Otter contact wiped himself out flying a King Air so that the whole thing was a complete waste of time and money except for an up close and personal look at aviation burocracy in Europe in action. I ended up just staying in Nigeria in preference to working in Germany. Nigerians are easier to deal with as long as you know how to push the right buttons.
I felt very guilty for ever having said anything bad about the U.S. FAA. Compared to the Germans they are the soul of sweet reason and co-operation and Yanks should count themselves lucky. I think I see some of the problem here getting Eurocrats to understand this mysterious DC-3 no one has ever heard of. DHC-3? Well, sort of; they both have round engines and a tailwheel.
I had just been to Toronto to do the Flight Safety factory course so that I had this diploma with a big gold seal and all... I figured the boxheads should go for this big-time. Boy, was I ever wrong!
I found my Case Officer tucked away in a small office with a wall full of dusty files. I explained that I had just been to Toronto, blah-blah-blah... when he rotated 180° on his throne, grabbed a big set of print-outs and whirled back to start leafing through it. "Day-Hah Sex und Acktzick?" he asked? (DH-86, some elderly biplane airliner, I believe)
This triggered some back and forth dialogue. I told him DHC and he told me it didn't exist and I told him to look again under DHC instead of DH and then he found it after all. Wonderful! NOT!
His Airship the airhead then looked at my lovely diploma and said it was no good at all because it read, "Twin Otter" when all he had in his book was "DHC-6."
I was sat there gaping, saying, "But-but-but... the Twin Otter IS a DHC-6"
He gave me a very self-satisfied, typically German glance and murmured, "How shall I know that?!"
Then we found, under the signature of the FSI Head of Training, the line, "DHC-6" so that was okay. I still had to do a check-ride, though, to get a type-rating that was only good for 12 months.
Then the local Twin Otter contact wiped himself out flying a King Air so that the whole thing was a complete waste of time and money except for an up close and personal look at aviation burocracy in Europe in action. I ended up just staying in Nigeria in preference to working in Germany. Nigerians are easier to deal with as long as you know how to push the right buttons.
I felt very guilty for ever having said anything bad about the U.S. FAA. Compared to the Germans they are the soul of sweet reason and co-operation and Yanks should count themselves lucky. I think I see some of the problem here getting Eurocrats to understand this mysterious DC-3 no one has ever heard of. DHC-3? Well, sort of; they both have round engines and a tailwheel.
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Reading about the DC3 feathering system brings to mind an incident when as a P2 we did a test flight (drift up) on a new engine. Yes it failed, resulting in some frantic activity in the cockpit to unfeather and restart the old engine. The captain did not hold the button in long enough. Realising his mistake he pressed it again and the prop feathered again. You have got to hold it in. I will always remember the quiet.... We got it going and all went well. Good lesson learned.
There are some highlights in my almost 2000 hrs on a DC3. Central African Airways / Air Rhodesia gave all its F/Os P1 training, if you performed well you were given a P1 rating and allowed to fly from the left seat. Heaven on earth!
The technical was a sketch and describe....... It would take a minimum of 4 hours to do that exam...... some took as long as 6 hours.
P1 training included a one-engine-out (feathered in those days) limited panel, NDB approach and go-around. Hard work!
Command check included both seats, day and night, and a final landing at night with a simulated failure of the instruments. You have to fly it by the seat of your pants and you would be surprised to find how easy it is. We knew our aircraft well.
I am truly proud of those hours in my log book
Concorde has come and gone: Long live the DAK!!
There are some highlights in my almost 2000 hrs on a DC3. Central African Airways / Air Rhodesia gave all its F/Os P1 training, if you performed well you were given a P1 rating and allowed to fly from the left seat. Heaven on earth!
The technical was a sketch and describe....... It would take a minimum of 4 hours to do that exam...... some took as long as 6 hours.
P1 training included a one-engine-out (feathered in those days) limited panel, NDB approach and go-around. Hard work!
Command check included both seats, day and night, and a final landing at night with a simulated failure of the instruments. You have to fly it by the seat of your pants and you would be surprised to find how easy it is. We knew our aircraft well.
I am truly proud of those hours in my log book
Concorde has come and gone: Long live the DAK!!
Air Antique are trying to flog their classic flight (or were) - maybe this is a convenient excuse for grounding increasingly expensive DC3s.
Their problem is the cost and impracticality of installing certain items of equipment required to permit affected aircraft to continue carrying fare paying passengers on pleasure flights.
Lessons (not always) handed down
Quote from Chuck Ellsworth:
The most simple cure if you are having difficulty holding the button in the out position is turn off the master switch which stops the feathering motor.
[Unquote]
Do you have also to trip the genny on the other engine? Can't remember whether we tried that.
Quote from Marker Inbound:
The feather check isn't that complicated, push the button, the RPM goes down, look at the load meters, pull the button back, the RPM comes back up, look at the load meters. You do want to give the button a twist before you start because I have seen the little button come off the threaded rod behind it when it was pulled back out.
[Unquote]
Your second sentence sounds like the sort of advice that, in aviation, MUST be handed down the generations of crews on any type of aircraft, lest the experience of the early experts is lost until the next accident... Remember the Viscount flap failures?
Re your first sentence, it was the exercising of the CSUs that I was thinking of, and the mag-drop tests at medium power. Meanwhile, the turboprops and jets were all sailing by... unless we were stuck in their way!
The most simple cure if you are having difficulty holding the button in the out position is turn off the master switch which stops the feathering motor.
[Unquote]
Do you have also to trip the genny on the other engine? Can't remember whether we tried that.
Quote from Marker Inbound:
The feather check isn't that complicated, push the button, the RPM goes down, look at the load meters, pull the button back, the RPM comes back up, look at the load meters. You do want to give the button a twist before you start because I have seen the little button come off the threaded rod behind it when it was pulled back out.
[Unquote]
Your second sentence sounds like the sort of advice that, in aviation, MUST be handed down the generations of crews on any type of aircraft, lest the experience of the early experts is lost until the next accident... Remember the Viscount flap failures?
Re your first sentence, it was the exercising of the CSUs that I was thinking of, and the mag-drop tests at medium power. Meanwhile, the turboprops and jets were all sailing by... unless we were stuck in their way!
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Some six months ago, TAM wanted a DC-3 for its museum in Sao Paulo. A friend, and retar'd Douglas engineer who headed up restoration of their DC-2, was tasked with finding a suitable DC-3. He found one within 50 miles of home. The buyers were ready spend many thousands of dollars to crate it and barge it from SoCalif to Brasil. My friend quashed that folly, and convinced the seller to deliver the plane for a fee. The flight went well, and everybody is living happily ever after, except my friend who never got paid for his efforts, in spite of promises..
GB
GB
Chris,
Yes, you do have to kill the other generator since there's really just one main bus and a radio bus. I have had 727 engineers who probably would find the feather check confusing!
Our company school was one day of indoc and one day of systems. When I taught the class I had thirty minutes of history in the syllabus to bring the day up to 8 hours. For one of my last upgrade students 20+ years ago we had to get a FAA examiner from out of the area. Weather was horrible, T-storms and rain, but he comes up flying in Cessna 210 and they start straight into the oral. The oral went almost 4 hours, I couldn't figure what they'd be talking about. (The FAA Inspector's Handbook actually says an oral should last about 2 hours, if it goes much longer it means the student isn't ready or the inspector doesn't know how to structure an oral!) And then they went and flew. I thought they were going to run out of gas, they were gone for 4 hours. That "kid" definitely earned his rating that day. He's a Captain at SW now.
Sorry for drifting the thread but ah the good old days.
Yes, you do have to kill the other generator since there's really just one main bus and a radio bus. I have had 727 engineers who probably would find the feather check confusing!
Our company school was one day of indoc and one day of systems. When I taught the class I had thirty minutes of history in the syllabus to bring the day up to 8 hours. For one of my last upgrade students 20+ years ago we had to get a FAA examiner from out of the area. Weather was horrible, T-storms and rain, but he comes up flying in Cessna 210 and they start straight into the oral. The oral went almost 4 hours, I couldn't figure what they'd be talking about. (The FAA Inspector's Handbook actually says an oral should last about 2 hours, if it goes much longer it means the student isn't ready or the inspector doesn't know how to structure an oral!) And then they went and flew. I thought they were going to run out of gas, they were gone for 4 hours. That "kid" definitely earned his rating that day. He's a Captain at SW now.
Sorry for drifting the thread but ah the good old days.
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Our DC3s will still be operating in Arial work after July 15th. RVL which is a recon company has one of our DC3s on Lease for arial work as we speak. The DC3 shall continue to fly and thre are loop holes which might enable passengers to fly......but for now we are focussing on offering the DC3 to as many people as possible before we have to suspend passenger operations after July 15th.
The DC3s will still be appearing and participating within airshows around the country also.
Like has been stated previous. There are ways in which we can still keep Passengers flying, but the costing of the mods and paperwork to the CAA are just not cost effective in terms of business.
An few examples of the Mods required are emergency escape slides, lockable cockpit doors, weather radar and many more.
All possible - but not relevent or as I say, cost effective for an aircraft that purely flys VFR very rarely above 3000ft and airborne usually a mear 20 minutes at a time.
Who knows what the future holds anyway! :-)
TC
The DC3s will still be appearing and participating within airshows around the country also.
Like has been stated previous. There are ways in which we can still keep Passengers flying, but the costing of the mods and paperwork to the CAA are just not cost effective in terms of business.
An few examples of the Mods required are emergency escape slides, lockable cockpit doors, weather radar and many more.
All possible - but not relevent or as I say, cost effective for an aircraft that purely flys VFR very rarely above 3000ft and airborne usually a mear 20 minutes at a time.
Who knows what the future holds anyway! :-)
TC
Bring back the Dak!
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YES, markerInbound (#66), that really is a most important gem not found in any book! As a Capt one morning, reaching over at the holding point to do the No2 feathering check with a button which you almost broke your fingers on to wrest it from the magnetic hold-in relay, (on this a/c anyway), I gave it its mandatory little twirl, but as I almost stood up in my seat to do the pull, it still pinged off with considerable force, over my right shoulder, hit the door-frame, and rolled down the sloping cabin floor to disappear at around row 6, followed by the rolling eyes of 36 bemused passengers, (no closed doors in those days). The prop duly feathered, and almost dragged the idling engine to zero, so we shut it down, and asked the stewardess if she would mind awfully going to find my little round red thing and bring it back as quick as she can. This she duly did, and she announced "Here's your little round red thing Captain, and please be more careful with it in future!" in a voice loud enough for all to hear, which nicely defused the situation for those passengers of a nervous disposition who had seen bits flying off their aeroplane before it had even reached the runway. The button was re-attached to the shaft, (which had pinged back out when the prop was fully feathered), and the button held in against its spring only until the prop looked unfeathered, the engine duly started, and we proceeed on our way.
Thats how it was in our 3rd-level airline back in the 70's. We had a bundle of fun. It was a truly precious time, and a truly precious aeroplane.
Thats how it was in our 3rd-level airline back in the 70's. We had a bundle of fun. It was a truly precious time, and a truly precious aeroplane.
Bring back the Dak!
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PSSSST!!-----want some exhaustive tech and Pilots Notes? They're right here on PPRuNe!
Click on "Any DC-3's for hire?" in "Similair Threads" box at the bottom of this page, scroll down to post #9, click on "South Coast Airways", click on "Pilots Notes" and "Dak Instructions" in column at left of page. It's all there!
Read, and be reminded or amazed!
Click on "Any DC-3's for hire?" in "Similair Threads" box at the bottom of this page, scroll down to post #9, click on "South Coast Airways", click on "Pilots Notes" and "Dak Instructions" in column at left of page. It's all there!
Read, and be reminded or amazed!
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I suspect that what we have here is the usual half-researched, EU scare story nonsense written by semi-comatose journos who can't be bothered to leave the bar long enough to check the facts.
On the regs -- Sometimes (and this is one of them) I think maybe regulators regulate not because they care about safety or want the world to be lovely, but because they just like regulating. They're the unpopular kids at school, getting their own back. And they're puritans; and as someone once said, the great terror of the puritan is that someone, somewhere, may be having a good time...
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I had a few trips on the BAe DC-3 Fairford-Filton shuttle (for Concorde staff) in the 70s. Still remember it now, so I wish Air Atlantique all the luck in being able to continue offering that now unique experience.
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Just remembered -- I spent a summer about 20 years back commuting from Nantucket Island to our base at BOS. Went out onto the apron to board the commuter & there were two or three DC-3s parked there in PBA (Provincetown & Boston Airline), one with the door open & airstair down. "How nice," I thought, "a vintage a/c open day." Made a mental note to have a look myself if I got the chance.
Then the ground crew shepherded us onto said DC-3. It was the standard equipment for the BOS - HYA - ACK - MVY run. Lovely old things (PBA had four, I think, which meant the required two were airworthy at any given time), great to ride, even as SLF, in the old gal not tarted up as some kind of "heritage" trip with CC in retro uniforms etc, but just as an ordinary, shabby, well-maintained working aeroplane. Some nice pix of the PBA '3s: here
I don't know what happened to them in the end. Went down to Florida, I heard. But nice to see them doing the job for which they were designed, working the line.
Then the ground crew shepherded us onto said DC-3. It was the standard equipment for the BOS - HYA - ACK - MVY run. Lovely old things (PBA had four, I think, which meant the required two were airworthy at any given time), great to ride, even as SLF, in the old gal not tarted up as some kind of "heritage" trip with CC in retro uniforms etc, but just as an ordinary, shabby, well-maintained working aeroplane. Some nice pix of the PBA '3s: here
I don't know what happened to them in the end. Went down to Florida, I heard. But nice to see them doing the job for which they were designed, working the line.
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Originally Posted by ABUKABOY
PSSSST!!-----want some exhaustive tech and Pilots Notes? They're right here on PPRuNe!
Downloaded them straight away.