Falklands Crash Sites
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Navaleye = Atlantic Conveyor.
This is quite revealing. I have been in contact with the Chief Officer and his recollections are below- some parts edited to remove names. The Board of enquiry report you so kindly forwarded to me states - "1942 - ACO hit by two Exocet......'Hit the deck' called over ships broadcast." This was called AFTER the missiles hit and I am still unsure as wether this was broadcast or just shouted from the bridge.
Chief Officers email to me today.
If you mean Charlie Drought, third Engineer, then having read part of the book myself...I gave up after a few chapters as it was poorly written and not very good on facts...I can understand your question He was/is a nice chap and a reliable watchkeeping engineer..but just not in the know on much of what was going on. He ascribed some statements to me that were not accurate as well.
I was on the Bridge at the time too, and my recollection, without referring to my "report" that I wrote on British Tay.. was that we got Air Raid warning Red and two minutes later the missiles hit us..that's when *the SNO* shouted hit the deck...not by PA. There was a broadcast "Air Raid warning Red" as far as I remember as soon as we got the threat over the radio net.
I was on port Bridge wing when they hit, helping rig the GPMG...I recall a loud bang as they hit but also two supersonic bangs...just like concorde going overhead...but then again there was so much chaff going off difficult for a peace-loving non military man to know what all the noises were !
I think that in all probability he and I are correct in the assertion that we had no idea what was coming from where, and we had absolutely no idea that Exocets were airborne and coming in our direction until after they hit us . As to the claim that there were two separate missile hits each preceded by a broadcast - this is imaginative fiction probably induced by the excitment at the time. All quite undestandable.
I hope that this adds a little informed fact to this fascinating little piece of Naval engagement.
ps - I am still awaiting my copy of the book and will post my reactions to its content then. Keep up your enthralling tales and thanks for the wonderful link to the Argentinean photos.
This is quite revealing. I have been in contact with the Chief Officer and his recollections are below- some parts edited to remove names. The Board of enquiry report you so kindly forwarded to me states - "1942 - ACO hit by two Exocet......'Hit the deck' called over ships broadcast." This was called AFTER the missiles hit and I am still unsure as wether this was broadcast or just shouted from the bridge.
Chief Officers email to me today.
If you mean Charlie Drought, third Engineer, then having read part of the book myself...I gave up after a few chapters as it was poorly written and not very good on facts...I can understand your question He was/is a nice chap and a reliable watchkeeping engineer..but just not in the know on much of what was going on. He ascribed some statements to me that were not accurate as well.
I was on the Bridge at the time too, and my recollection, without referring to my "report" that I wrote on British Tay.. was that we got Air Raid warning Red and two minutes later the missiles hit us..that's when *the SNO* shouted hit the deck...not by PA. There was a broadcast "Air Raid warning Red" as far as I remember as soon as we got the threat over the radio net.
I was on port Bridge wing when they hit, helping rig the GPMG...I recall a loud bang as they hit but also two supersonic bangs...just like concorde going overhead...but then again there was so much chaff going off difficult for a peace-loving non military man to know what all the noises were !
I think that in all probability he and I are correct in the assertion that we had no idea what was coming from where, and we had absolutely no idea that Exocets were airborne and coming in our direction until after they hit us . As to the claim that there were two separate missile hits each preceded by a broadcast - this is imaginative fiction probably induced by the excitment at the time. All quite undestandable.
I hope that this adds a little informed fact to this fascinating little piece of Naval engagement.
ps - I am still awaiting my copy of the book and will post my reactions to its content then. Keep up your enthralling tales and thanks for the wonderful link to the Argentinean photos.
Suspicion breeds confidence
I recall a loud bang as they hit but also two supersonic bangs..
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Navaleye
Of what are you not convinced? I recall only one explosion and the way I have always described it is a Wa-Wumph that I suppose could loosely be described as two!!
I suspect that the Chief Officers "supersonic bangs" were all part of the general melee of bangs going on all around at the time - and there were a lot of them!
Of what are you not convinced? I recall only one explosion and the way I have always described it is a Wa-Wumph that I suppose could loosely be described as two!!
I suspect that the Chief Officers "supersonic bangs" were all part of the general melee of bangs going on all around at the time - and there were a lot of them!
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Naveleye
Avenger report on a Exorcet , fly by at about half a mile , two options here :
Could have been the one exorcet missed fired that nowbody knows were it went or Could bave been 155 mm artillery ground which is quite noicy -
If HMS Avenger was been targeted by us and the 155 mm that would be the case - We incline to think that we were shooting at HMS Avenger with the 155 mm and a ground flew close enough to it - they have a distinctive sound -
Glanmorgan : No we have not been doing any jammin , Could it be that they report jammin because they were targeted by a Triple A system that could have engaged them ?, if not the only other systems that were emiting signals were the long range radar -
Regards Enrique
Could have been the one exorcet missed fired that nowbody knows were it went or Could bave been 155 mm artillery ground which is quite noicy -
If HMS Avenger was been targeted by us and the 155 mm that would be the case - We incline to think that we were shooting at HMS Avenger with the 155 mm and a ground flew close enough to it - they have a distinctive sound -
Glanmorgan : No we have not been doing any jammin , Could it be that they report jammin because they were targeted by a Triple A system that could have engaged them ?, if not the only other systems that were emiting signals were the long range radar -
Regards Enrique
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Navaleye
I have read the book. The factual inaccuracies are mind boggling. Check out the photo descriptions for a starter. To have remembered all that dialogue is very unlikely given the excitement of the moment To think that Naval Officers used old chap as a normal form of speech shows a total lack of knowledge of the Naval personnel of the 1980s who were on board the ship he was serving in at the time. Have you met 1980s Fleet Airm personnel especially Junglies? Stuffiness and standing on ceremony is certainly not one of their attributes. The chip on his shoulder shines through in many pages. I have little more to add save that this book is more fiction than fact (and appallingly produced) and if you care not to believe in the Officers in Command of the ship and aviation assets at the time over the memories of the Third Engineer mostly below decks and not in the informed loop, and written down in this extraordinary book is your privilege I have no more to add except to say that my copy is available free to anyone who wishes to have it. I do not wish the memories of that great crew of Merchant Seaman and Royal Navy personnel sullied by such nonsense and I do not wish my children to find it in my belongings when I die, and get totally the wrong impression of an amazing and exciting time with amazing and selfless personnel.
I have read the book. The factual inaccuracies are mind boggling. Check out the photo descriptions for a starter. To have remembered all that dialogue is very unlikely given the excitement of the moment To think that Naval Officers used old chap as a normal form of speech shows a total lack of knowledge of the Naval personnel of the 1980s who were on board the ship he was serving in at the time. Have you met 1980s Fleet Airm personnel especially Junglies? Stuffiness and standing on ceremony is certainly not one of their attributes. The chip on his shoulder shines through in many pages. I have little more to add save that this book is more fiction than fact (and appallingly produced) and if you care not to believe in the Officers in Command of the ship and aviation assets at the time over the memories of the Third Engineer mostly below decks and not in the informed loop, and written down in this extraordinary book is your privilege I have no more to add except to say that my copy is available free to anyone who wishes to have it. I do not wish the memories of that great crew of Merchant Seaman and Royal Navy personnel sullied by such nonsense and I do not wish my children to find it in my belongings when I die, and get totally the wrong impression of an amazing and exciting time with amazing and selfless personnel.
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Navaleye, if Glamorgan was passed by the AM-39, she would have to be close to Avenger (the suposed target for the AM-39) or well the AM-39 was defected by chaff and changed its course undetected by the pilots who were suposed to follow it at least during the first moments after launching. Anyway argentineans pilots didnīt report any other ship near Avenger.
The first MM-38 launching happened on 1st june. I read (donīt remember where) that there were a group of ships that night (not only Avenger)
Regards
The first MM-38 launching happened on 1st june. I read (donīt remember where) that there were a group of ships that night (not only Avenger)
Regards
Suspicion breeds confidence
Bast0n,
I agree with you, having read many books on the FW over 2 decades, I've leaned to take most with a pinch of salt, especially those which claim to be factual. Some of the most authoritative accounts whose accuracy is rarely questioned are often plain wrong. Its a shame that only account dedicated to the ACO incident falls into this category.
Welcome Griffiths9/11.
I agree with you, having read many books on the FW over 2 decades, I've leaned to take most with a pinch of salt, especially those which claim to be factual. Some of the most authoritative accounts whose accuracy is rarely questioned are often plain wrong. Its a shame that only account dedicated to the ACO incident falls into this category.
Welcome Griffiths9/11.
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Navaleye
Thanks for that. The book really upset me by its crass inaccuracies. To have it lying around as the only "record" of the final cruise of the AC is such a shame. There are a few laughs though amongst the illustrations- page 44, picture of a "Seaking vertrepping on the after deck" when in fact it's Wessex 5 on the forward deck!! and best of all, page 120 a picture of HMS Alacrity
F60 (instead of F174) using a photo from 1950 odd of the wartime Alacrity!! Ah well - let it rest.
Thanks for that. The book really upset me by its crass inaccuracies. To have it lying around as the only "record" of the final cruise of the AC is such a shame. There are a few laughs though amongst the illustrations- page 44, picture of a "Seaking vertrepping on the after deck" when in fact it's Wessex 5 on the forward deck!! and best of all, page 120 a picture of HMS Alacrity
F60 (instead of F174) using a photo from 1950 odd of the wartime Alacrity!! Ah well - let it rest.
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Board of Inquiry - Atlantic Conveyor & more
For those who would like to read the official BOI for the loss of Atlantic Conveyor, HMS Coventry, Antelope as well as the Gazelle XX37 shot down in a blue blue incident by my ship HMS Cardiff:
Ministry of Defence | About Defence | Corporate Publications | Boards of Inquiry
Ministry of Defence | About Defence | Corporate Publications | Boards of Inquiry
Suspicion breeds confidence
Griffiths911,
Your diagram does indeed look like the ACO attack and matches closely the diagram in post 217 if viewed from the NE.
Reydelcastillio,
HMS Avenger was attacked on the morning of the 28th May by a shore based MM38 whilst on the Gun Line off Stanley. It was seen by the crew at the time, but for some strange reason, no general warning was broadcast and the news slowly filtered out over the next few days. Had a warning been given the gun line positions would have been altered and the ships closed up at action stations for longer. On Glamorgan, the launch was seen from the ship, the Exocet seen on 992 yet their was still confusion as to what it was. The PWO thought it could have been a helicopter. Maybe fatigue played a part in this as well.
Your diagram does indeed look like the ACO attack and matches closely the diagram in post 217 if viewed from the NE.
Reydelcastillio,
HMS Avenger was attacked on the morning of the 28th May by a shore based MM38 whilst on the Gun Line off Stanley. It was seen by the crew at the time, but for some strange reason, no general warning was broadcast and the news slowly filtered out over the next few days. Had a warning been given the gun line positions would have been altered and the ships closed up at action stations for longer. On Glamorgan, the launch was seen from the ship, the Exocet seen on 992 yet their was still confusion as to what it was. The PWO thought it could have been a helicopter. Maybe fatigue played a part in this as well.
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Navaleye
One small good laugh from "that book". It states that the Chief Officer was winched off from the forward deck rather than going into the sea with the rest of us. I recieved an email from him this morning from near the White Continent saying - "I guess I must have bounced back on board after hitting the water when I went over the side"!
It is so good to see that great humour abounds in the recounting all these tales. I am in contact with the HMS Alacrity website and there are some good tales there also. http://www.hmsalacrity.co.uk/ - (not working this afternoon for some reason.)
One small good laugh from "that book". It states that the Chief Officer was winched off from the forward deck rather than going into the sea with the rest of us. I recieved an email from him this morning from near the White Continent saying - "I guess I must have bounced back on board after hitting the water when I went over the side"!
It is so good to see that great humour abounds in the recounting all these tales. I am in contact with the HMS Alacrity website and there are some good tales there also. http://www.hmsalacrity.co.uk/ - (not working this afternoon for some reason.)
Suspicion breeds confidence
As you say, I've confined that book to the fiction section. Incidentally, I've asked Ian Inskip (Navigator, Glamorgan) if he could join us and I very much hope could add his insight into the discussion.
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Welcome Griffiths911:
A great news for the forum and specially for this topic you to be here.
Thanks for your explanation but I suspect not RN jargon but my very improvable english. I understood when you talked about gun crew you were talking about the 4,5" one.
Very interesting the picture you put. I think the numbers on the left (20, 40, 60 from down to up) are the radar range in kilometers. I think Agave radar has a search mode and an attack mode. The last one shorter. AM-39 has a maximun range around 50 km if launched at low level, as Falklands was. I see two small echoes on the left, one big in the center and a little one just right of it.
On 25th may raid, I think Ambuscade and Alacrity were in front of AC, from the SUE point of view (N-NW/S-SW). So I didnīt match a lot the diagram. I think they would have to see a first line of ships (type 21) and behind them, the capital ships. The 4th may raid perhaps with the external ring more or less aligned?
Navaleye, the first attempt made with the shore based MM-38 was in the night of 1st june, not in the morning of 28th. They launched the missile against a group of two ships. MM-38 range is 45 km but due to be linked to a RASIT radar which effective range is only 30 km, this was in fact the real range.
So, or Avenger incident is in another date and during night (as shore gunfire used to be) or well is another unknown incident. That day FAA and COAN flew some missions from the mainland although all didnīt find target due to extreme fog condition during all day. In fact all were planified to support combat on Goose Green.
Regards
PS: What a great contact a Glamorgan crew member
A great news for the forum and specially for this topic you to be here.
Thanks for your explanation but I suspect not RN jargon but my very improvable english. I understood when you talked about gun crew you were talking about the 4,5" one.
Very interesting the picture you put. I think the numbers on the left (20, 40, 60 from down to up) are the radar range in kilometers. I think Agave radar has a search mode and an attack mode. The last one shorter. AM-39 has a maximun range around 50 km if launched at low level, as Falklands was. I see two small echoes on the left, one big in the center and a little one just right of it.
On 25th may raid, I think Ambuscade and Alacrity were in front of AC, from the SUE point of view (N-NW/S-SW). So I didnīt match a lot the diagram. I think they would have to see a first line of ships (type 21) and behind them, the capital ships. The 4th may raid perhaps with the external ring more or less aligned?
Navaleye, the first attempt made with the shore based MM-38 was in the night of 1st june, not in the morning of 28th. They launched the missile against a group of two ships. MM-38 range is 45 km but due to be linked to a RASIT radar which effective range is only 30 km, this was in fact the real range.
So, or Avenger incident is in another date and during night (as shore gunfire used to be) or well is another unknown incident. That day FAA and COAN flew some missions from the mainland although all didnīt find target due to extreme fog condition during all day. In fact all were planified to support combat on Goose Green.
Regards
PS: What a great contact a Glamorgan crew member
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griffiths
Great pictures. Really nice to see the initial grave of H Jones. He was a very good chum of mine. Also I loved the "No flying day". I took mail and videos to Exeter on a day much like that and wondered if I was being sensible. When I got there she insisted that I lowered it all onto the focsle, just to make it easy I suppose!!
Great pictures. Really nice to see the initial grave of H Jones. He was a very good chum of mine. Also I loved the "No flying day". I took mail and videos to Exeter on a day much like that and wondered if I was being sensible. When I got there she insisted that I lowered it all onto the focsle, just to make it easy I suppose!!
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Brilliant Pictures - but also very sobering.
Sir Tristram carried us back to Marchwood from Belize around '72. Long Spring days passing through the Jamaica Passage and up to Bermuda for a long weekend. Thinking of the accommodation spaces and the "Hangar Deck" in these pictures gives me the shivers.
The OM's done you proud, wish I had kept mine.
Imagegear.
Sir Tristram carried us back to Marchwood from Belize around '72. Long Spring days passing through the Jamaica Passage and up to Bermuda for a long weekend. Thinking of the accommodation spaces and the "Hangar Deck" in these pictures gives me the shivers.
The OM's done you proud, wish I had kept mine.
Imagegear.