Falklands Crash Sites
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I´ve been searching in my achieve and found Andrew Mawman testimony (a crew member from Exeter that I contacted around ten years ago). He wrote me that during 30th may raid, he was told that a Sea Dart from them, overflew HMS Avenger in his way towards the A-4C Skyhawks. It happened in daylight as the raid was. But the date doesn´t match. Anybody knows about this history? Is this may be the missile that overflew Avenger´s flight deck?
Last edited by jualbo; 1st Feb 2009 at 19:49.
Suspicion breeds confidence
Jualbo,
I;ve just heard from Ian Inskip that he met the guy that pressed the fire button for the hit on Glamorgan, Jose Scaglia . He also has some pictures of the Lear jet memorial which I hope he can share with us. He also points out that the launcher was not at Eliza Cove as mentioned in his book.
I;ve just heard from Ian Inskip that he met the guy that pressed the fire button for the hit on Glamorgan, Jose Scaglia . He also has some pictures of the Lear jet memorial which I hope he can share with us. He also points out that the launcher was not at Eliza Cove as mentioned in his book.
Suspicion breeds confidence
Many thanks to "Pontius the Pilot" for contributing the two photos below, Pontius was the Navigating Officer of HMS Glamorgan during the Falklands campaign and is the man to ask if you have any questions on her movements. Welcome.
Turbo mentor wreckage on Pebble Island
Lear Jet memorial. Is that two sisters in the background? Jualbo?
Turbo mentor wreckage on Pebble Island
Lear Jet memorial. Is that two sisters in the background? Jualbo?
Last edited by Navaleye; 4th Feb 2009 at 00:02.
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Hi every body. Thanks for the contacts.
Ken, the name of Exeter crew member is Andrew Mawman not Ian.
Navaleye I agree with MAINJAFAD that the Learjet fell down on Pebble island. So I think that´s where probably the memorial is. But the one in the photo only have two crosses while five men were killed in the Learjet. Are you sure it´s the memorial of Learjet?
Regards
Ken, the name of Exeter crew member is Andrew Mawman not Ian.
Navaleye I agree with MAINJAFAD that the Learjet fell down on Pebble island. So I think that´s where probably the memorial is. But the one in the photo only have two crosses while five men were killed in the Learjet. Are you sure it´s the memorial of Learjet?
Regards
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Hello all,
Have just been directed to this fascinating thread by Griffiths911 (thanks, Ken); haven’t had time to read it all yet but some great photographs have been posted.
One slight correction; isn’t that ‘turbo mentor’ photograph a Shorts Skyvan? One was destroyed (comprehensively) during the RN / SAS raid on the Pebble Island airstrip.
I hope I can contribute something a bit more useful in future.
WA$.
Have just been directed to this fascinating thread by Griffiths911 (thanks, Ken); haven’t had time to read it all yet but some great photographs have been posted.
One slight correction; isn’t that ‘turbo mentor’ photograph a Shorts Skyvan? One was destroyed (comprehensively) during the RN / SAS raid on the Pebble Island airstrip.
I hope I can contribute something a bit more useful in future.
WA$.
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Hi guys, I'm also a new member and arrived here from the Keypublishing forums thanks to Griffith's and Creaking Door.
I'm an Argentine aviation and defense researcher and found this is a fascinating post, with a lot of good information and the accounts of those involved are very interesting.
As I'm now researching about the war, I will return with some questions for you.
All the best!
Santiago
I'm an Argentine aviation and defense researcher and found this is a fascinating post, with a lot of good information and the accounts of those involved are very interesting.
As I'm now researching about the war, I will return with some questions for you.
All the best!
Santiago
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Hi, the wreck at Pebble Island is a Prefectura Naval Argentina Shorts Skyvan serial PA-50, destroyed during the SAS raid. The other Skyvan deployed, PA-54 was damaged on may 1st during the bombing, but was repaired. On May 6th was taken to the racecourse, but was damaged during landing and never flew again. Later was destroyed by gunfire from British ships.
Excellent pictures from Atlantic Conveyor. Does someone has good pictrues of the ship after the attack? The account by bast0n is wonderful as I never read the story of the attack from a crew member of the ship.
At last, the Wessex used for the attack against Menendez was the only AS.12 capable on the islands?
To Edmond Spencer: do you think that using Dagger or MIIIEA escorts to the attack planes could change things from May 21 on? I see that on may 1st, when a lot of Argentine fighters were sent, the attack escadrilles arrived to their targets and escaped without being intercepted by the SHARs, except in the case of the Canberras, which were with no cover from the Mirages or Daggers.
Excellent pictures from Atlantic Conveyor. Does someone has good pictrues of the ship after the attack? The account by bast0n is wonderful as I never read the story of the attack from a crew member of the ship.
At last, the Wessex used for the attack against Menendez was the only AS.12 capable on the islands?
To Edmond Spencer: do you think that using Dagger or MIIIEA escorts to the attack planes could change things from May 21 on? I see that on may 1st, when a lot of Argentine fighters were sent, the attack escadrilles arrived to their targets and escaped without being intercepted by the SHARs, except in the case of the Canberras, which were with no cover from the Mirages or Daggers.
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Santiago,
Many thanks for your input and welcome.
I guess I can only comment regarding the two actions I was involved in.
On May 24 'Oro' section led by Capt Diaz was in a quite close arrow formation when we intercepted them at low level from the north. I was flying as number two to my squadron CO, Andy Auld, and I remember paying a great deal of attention to the airspace about two miles behind the raid as this was where I expected the escort to be. Had there been an escort of, say, two missile and gun armed Mirage III's we would have had to engage them first and 'Oro' would undoubtedly have got through to the target area.
These would have been our tactics had the roles been reversed.
On June 8 the visibility and light were much worse but a card escort would have posed a critical threat to Dave Morgan and myself as we attacked Hector Sanchez' formation of four A4's.
ES
Many thanks for your input and welcome.
I guess I can only comment regarding the two actions I was involved in.
On May 24 'Oro' section led by Capt Diaz was in a quite close arrow formation when we intercepted them at low level from the north. I was flying as number two to my squadron CO, Andy Auld, and I remember paying a great deal of attention to the airspace about two miles behind the raid as this was where I expected the escort to be. Had there been an escort of, say, two missile and gun armed Mirage III's we would have had to engage them first and 'Oro' would undoubtedly have got through to the target area.
These would have been our tactics had the roles been reversed.
On June 8 the visibility and light were much worse but a card escort would have posed a critical threat to Dave Morgan and myself as we attacked Hector Sanchez' formation of four A4's.
ES
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Santiago Rivas
These have been posted before but maybe not here. I have a couple more but these will give you an idea! Welcome to the thread, it is a fascinating story from both sides.
These have been posted before but maybe not here. I have a couple more but these will give you an idea! Welcome to the thread, it is a fascinating story from both sides.
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Hi Edmund and bast0n, thanks for your replies and the Atlantic Conveyor pics. Edmund, I have another question for you. Almost all Argentine sources say the AIM-9L was decisive in the air war, but I can see that, as almost all shots were made from behind, using a former version of the Sidewinder will probably make the same result in air combats. What do you think?
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You are quite correct, Santiago, most of the shots were fired from at or near the six o'clock position. There were however, some notable execptions.
Steve Thomas talks about a high angle off shot against Jorge Senn on 21st May and my shot against Raul Diaz on 24 May was about 90 degrees off. There may have been others.
From memory the AIM9L used a feature called lamda compensation to cut the corner on a turning target and thus make the acquisition easier for itself. This was a major technology jump from the AIM9G. The Lima also had the capability of detecting the heat on the leading edges of a supersonic target and thereby gave you a limited head on shot.
I believe the accuracy of the proximity fuzing may also have been a factor. The shot I took at Danilo Bolzan on 8 June was from below 100 feet and I was unable to put him on the horizon so he would have been well below. The time between missile impact and ground impact was less than a second so I have always assumed he was at extremely low altitude. Would an AIM9G have fuzed on the ground prior to the hit?
I regret I don't remember the specifics of the AIM9G as I had just joined the squadron from training and only worked up on the AIM9L. The weapons experts out there would have to determine if a 'G' would have achieved kills in the instances I have mentioned above.
ES
Steve Thomas talks about a high angle off shot against Jorge Senn on 21st May and my shot against Raul Diaz on 24 May was about 90 degrees off. There may have been others.
From memory the AIM9L used a feature called lamda compensation to cut the corner on a turning target and thus make the acquisition easier for itself. This was a major technology jump from the AIM9G. The Lima also had the capability of detecting the heat on the leading edges of a supersonic target and thereby gave you a limited head on shot.
I believe the accuracy of the proximity fuzing may also have been a factor. The shot I took at Danilo Bolzan on 8 June was from below 100 feet and I was unable to put him on the horizon so he would have been well below. The time between missile impact and ground impact was less than a second so I have always assumed he was at extremely low altitude. Would an AIM9G have fuzed on the ground prior to the hit?
I regret I don't remember the specifics of the AIM9G as I had just joined the squadron from training and only worked up on the AIM9L. The weapons experts out there would have to determine if a 'G' would have achieved kills in the instances I have mentioned above.
ES
Last edited by Edmund Spencer; 17th Feb 2009 at 00:52.
For all my love of all things 'air combat' I couldn't elaborate more on this and Mr Edmund has elaborated more than I have seen on the subject for some time. So I say:
Bring in the AWI!
After the demise of the cat n trap traditional carrier force and the demise of the AWI squadron (764), weapons instructor (or rather air warfare instructor) trade was perpetuated by the older AWIs from the F-4 and Bucc force but in 801 incredibly an ex mud moving crab (Flt Lt Ian Mortimer) was the squadron AWI and for 800 during the conflict I am not sure but there were at least two Lt Cdrs (Tony Ogilvy and Mike Blissett) who's input we could use around here. However, in an old exchange with Moggy (Lt Cdr Dave Morgan) he'd told me that after the war AWI instruction was carried out at 899 and between 1978 and 1982 it apparently had not been formalised and the man who did do so was Ian Mortimer RAF helped by then Dave Morgan RAF (among others I presume?). Moggy did qualify as an AWI in 1984, and seeing as I do that he was looking for you in these forums some months (or years?) ago, he could be very useful in answering these questions! (Unfortunately as soon as you came into the forum he disappeared from it!! (Lovely book of his by the way. Especially relevant would be the section of his flying over Cornwall IIRC where he has a loud growl from his on board AIM9L on a heap of sheep's dung in the countryside!!! Talk about sensitivity! A Mirage in full afterburner would appear to an AIM9L's infrared seeker head to stink to high heaven by comparison then!
Bring in the AWI!
After the demise of the cat n trap traditional carrier force and the demise of the AWI squadron (764), weapons instructor (or rather air warfare instructor) trade was perpetuated by the older AWIs from the F-4 and Bucc force but in 801 incredibly an ex mud moving crab (Flt Lt Ian Mortimer) was the squadron AWI and for 800 during the conflict I am not sure but there were at least two Lt Cdrs (Tony Ogilvy and Mike Blissett) who's input we could use around here. However, in an old exchange with Moggy (Lt Cdr Dave Morgan) he'd told me that after the war AWI instruction was carried out at 899 and between 1978 and 1982 it apparently had not been formalised and the man who did do so was Ian Mortimer RAF helped by then Dave Morgan RAF (among others I presume?). Moggy did qualify as an AWI in 1984, and seeing as I do that he was looking for you in these forums some months (or years?) ago, he could be very useful in answering these questions! (Unfortunately as soon as you came into the forum he disappeared from it!! (Lovely book of his by the way. Especially relevant would be the section of his flying over Cornwall IIRC where he has a loud growl from his on board AIM9L on a heap of sheep's dung in the countryside!!! Talk about sensitivity! A Mirage in full afterburner would appear to an AIM9L's infrared seeker head to stink to high heaven by comparison then!
Last edited by ARXW; 17th Feb 2009 at 13:35.
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Thanks Edmund and ARXW. Excellent information. As I can see, there was some advantage and some kills could be thanks of the Lima improvements, but most kills could be also made using the AIM-9G.
One more question, at what height you did the PACs? Because the cover missions flown by the Mirage III and Daggers were usually very high.
One more question, at what height you did the PACs? Because the cover missions flown by the Mirage III and Daggers were usually very high.