Dis Gruntled

If you want answers look on prune. Or email me simple as that, nothing barrred

Dis Gruntled

Do not a functional not require an indy. Thats 2 people at least for me

daddy flm

903 give it a rest m8 your informant is as accurate as your posting this is the real story tvoc wont like it but what the hell.

August 06 3 months wasted on putting an aircraft together to put on show to the tens of thousand donaters to see the old girl 3,000 turned up not 30,000

Marshall to pull the plug lack of funds saved at the witching hour pity the big donation was in the bank 2-3 days before oops.

TVOC selling stuff on ebay to fund spares authenticated by who ??

MARSHALL ALLOWED TVOC TO USE THEIR STORES SYSTEM TO SAVE MONEY AND ALLOW THE ENGINEERS TO CARRY ON

At the end of the project Marshall payed lets say 5 million still owed 2-3 million allegedly oh this is now written off if you listen to rumour

So this big chunk as reduced a fair bit dont you think all the Marshall techs overtime was done at an agreed rate not time and 1/2

Still we all know that the accounts if made public will show the real story I CANT WAIT to see them

All i can say is that when the tvoc get the engineers to brize all is well tq loadings settings paperwork etc etc and also that the infamous two dont get injured playing rugby or fat in the eye at a bbq that means a week off

Better still stress caused by the false posts as to reasons why the displays are not carried out

Maybe all the phone calls to Marshall aerospace BT could donate 20p to the fund as of 4pm they would of made about £ 2.00

simplethings

Delta15 - you, my old son, are a disgrace!
Have you just put in a 45+ hour week, then been asked to drive 3 hours and certify a complex piece of kit? NO! Didn't bloody think so! When things go the way of the pear, as they innevitably will, who will be standing in the dock?
You?
Yeah right!

Vulcan 903 - Wrong again!! What did I say about shutting up until you have ALL the facts!? The work on the aircraft requires TWO people to sign it off! Ever heard of indies? As for the large chunk going to a Cambridge based company, I refer you to the comments made by daddy flm!!

If the TVOC " engineers " could improve their communication and inform the MA people that there is a problem, maybe things can be sorted more quickly! A week after the event is, probably, just a bit too long!

Looking North - keep going north!! Read the post I made earlier about having the FULL facts before spouting your drivel! As for anonymous - feel free to pm and I'll set the record straight (because I can)!!

BB - laudable though your efforts are.......where was your authority to rectify a defect. I refer you to CAP553, chapter A3-7. If the aircraft goes tech, you invalidate the PMR, or so I'm told! So how was the snag fixed?

I await your ill-informed responses with baited breath!!

Lots of love, somethingsimple (because it really is) !!

Tempsford

Simple,

Many thanks for the input.

I can't think of a historic aircraft operating in the UK that is so complex as the Vulcan. (Well apart from some of the B757 we fly.....)

The problems that the maintainers and certifiers of the Vulcan have are many and complex and not perhaps understandable to some. It has been a fantastic effort to get XH558 in the air once more, but I have always said that doing this was one thing, keeping it serviceable was another.

Unless this can be done and the aircraft makes a large percentage of it's scheduled appearances, bookings for this great aircraft may dwindle and the revenue stream will thus be affected. We must all appreciate that this is the first season after major work on the aircraft and we must not expect it to operate with a high degree of reliabilty. So we should cut the folks who have and continue to do their best some slack and expect a period of defects arising that need to be sorted and hope for a better degree of reliability next year.

Temps

BEagle

Nevertheless, from the statement:

the public perception, incorrect though it might be, will be that MA weren't prepared to send people to Brize in time to allow the aircraft to fly this weekend.

The Vulcan is unique and working to get it flying in front of the public is NOT just another job, so I'm sure that MA will have tried to get the task completed in time.........

Dis Gruntled

Mr Beagle I am sure MA did their best, but lets wait and see if she gets auth too fly on monday, I think not with 2 days work to be done

Dis Gruntled

PS with regards too you quoting off the tvoc site, huge huge fistful of salt with anything said on there. I have more integrity in my small toe nail

simplethings

R of I

Ah, diddums!! Poor old deprived you!!

Read the posts properly and you'll know why the aircraft wasn't certified. Certainly NOT down to '..pure jobsworth..'!

As I posted previously, did you do a full week and then get asked to travel all that way?! Ever heard of human factors?

All this sniping and digging at MA, and the two poor buggers that appear to be the focus of peoples ire, will get you nowhere! I spoke to one of the guys yesterday, and he's decidedly unhappy about things, but far too professional to come here and vent his spleen. Maybe it would be better all round if MA pulled out! Or the guys handed back their approvals! Result...one more static Vulcan!

Realise people, this aircraft is only flying because of the time and effort put in by MA and the team of engineers from there.

Regards
simplethings

BEagle

All that way? All of 2 hours by road - and I would have been quite happy to have flown up and picked them up at my own expense, if I'd known.

simplethings

BEags

I'm sure the guys would appreciate your generous offer. However, I feel you're missing the point. Which is, the communication between the two parties is woefully inadequate. If snags on the aircraft are reported back immediately, I'm fairly sure that a reasonably rapid response could be made. A couple of days notice would be good! To expect people, and MA heirarchy for that matter, to drop everything because the VOC say so is a bit much! MA is a commercial outfit, after all, and quite busy at the moment.

regards

simplethings

forget

If nothing else simplethings, your posts prove one thing beyond doubt - you most definitely work for MA!

So far as the Vulcan is concerned no one in the real world of aviation would think twice about ‘doing a full week and then get asked to travel all that way!’ (All that way )

What a laughable statement – you’d think they were doing it for free - when that is very, very far from the case.

My ####.

simplethings

Forget

Really! Are you quite sure about that? Try the past tense! I haven't worked for MA for over 4 years!

I didn't realise you had access to MA and VOC accounts! I shall defer to your, obviously superior, knowledge.

I take it, then, that you are also an expert on the real world of aviation! Remind me to check, next time I fly anywhere, that you are not the release signatory or a member of the crew. Your whole attitude to human factors and working hours obviously makes you someone to be very scared of!!

I'll pass on your final comment! Although you could probably do it yourself as you obviously know the chaps!!

pulse1

I seem to have met a lot of local people who are convinced that they saw the Vulcan at Bournemouth on Friday. I think that they confused it with the Typhoon - delta wing and lots of noise?

This probably reflects the fact that it is a long time since the real thing has been seen and heard in this area. Not since the last Bournemouth Airshow which, if I remember rightly, was the last year of displays by the RAF.

Perhaps, when it is servicable, we could have a flypast just to remind us what we missed.

forget

Clearer still!

And while I’m here – engineers? This was supposed to be a restoration - not a first year avionics experiment.

Not the first time I've mentioned this - but it makes me mad! Let me get this right. A cheap VOR antenna was stuck where a UHF/VHF antenna once sat so the VHF antenna had to be moved to where a RadAlt antenna sat. Did anyone consider leaving the comm antenna where it was and putting the VOR antenna in the radome? Ready for this – that way the aircraft would look ‘normal’. Gobsmacked isn’t a word I often use - but nothing else fits here.

PS. I think you'll find that VOC accounts (thus, what MA gets paid) are accessible to the public.

[IMG][/IMG]

kwh

...is of the utmost criticality to the Vulcan project. There are going to be enough serious problems that might ground the plane on any given day without it being grounded by beaurocracy, and when it only has a limited handful of opportunities to perform, any time it misses one counts as more than a nail in the coffin of the project.

On the other hand, I fail to see why anybody expects it to be of relative importance to a major commercial aviation contractor. If the price of getting the Vulcan signed off for an airshow is that a major airline has a jet on the ground that should be on a revenue earning flight except the engineers were off in Oxfordshire, or... well, pretty much anything else the supplier concerned is working on, really... then I'd say that spending 4 hours driving, bracketing two hours of work on the Vulcan, in order to get it to an airshow is naturally going to come second. And turning up like a zombie to rubber stamp something, either on the Vulcan or whatever was the next day, is not a professional option either, is it.

Of course, I'm sure something could have been arranged, with sufficient goodwill and organisational flexibility on all sides, but the vibe I'm getting is that TVOC couldn't organise a piss-up in a brewery, and that there isn't much goodwill to be had amongst the people with the magic pen, or their bosses.

Nothing that seems to have happened here couldn't in general terms have been predicted and planned for. I've read before that Vulcans are fickle beasts, and that they were often U/S with miscellaneous niggles even when operational. Since the Vulcan appears to be unable to legally fly in a condition that the RAF would have been happy to operate it in back in the day, I perhaps niaively cannot see how its serviceability performance is going to have improved any over when it was last in service. If you couple that problem with a failure on the part of the TVOC (i.e. the people who have had best part of a decade to think about how they are going to operate the aircraft) to plan for timely certification of any fixes performed, then the odds are that it will miss more airshow comitments than it gets to.

Posting petulant press releases that effectively blame Marshalls for the Vulcan missing the airshows this weekend is just guaranteed to ensure that any corporate favours that Marshalls might once have felt moved to bestow on TVOC in exchange for basking in an expected PR benefit for being associated with the project will definitely not continue or be repeated. Since my understanding is that the Vulcan only flies at all because Marshalls didn't shut the project down and demand payment for work done, instead writing off part of the outstanding bill, that seems as churlish in the extreme as it is counterproductively self destructive.

In any case, the relevant question you have to ask Marshalls is 'Did they meet their SLA?'. If, as I suspect, the answer is 'Yes, they did - or will when the engineers turn up later this week'), then the failure to have a serviceable aircraft for this weekend is all TVOC's.

As to how and why TVOC have managed to exhaust the goodwill of the Marshalls engineers, such that there was no reasonable accomodation that could be made, that's another difficult question that the TVOC have to answer.

It occurs to me that 'We'll send a limo and driver to Cambridge to pick you and your lady wife/wives up and ferry you down to Oxford for dinner and a night in a decent local hotel, briefly borrowing you for a couple of hours to sign off the work on the Vulcan, and then ferrying you both back to Cambridge the next morning' might have worked, if relations were still reasonable...

pulse1

I seem to have met a lot of local people who are convinced that they saw the Vulcan at Bournemouth on Friday. I think that they confused it with the Typhoon - delta wing and lots of noise?

This probably reflects the fact that it is a long time since the real thing has been seen and heard in this area. Not since the last Bournemouth Airshow which, if I remember rightly, was the last year of displays by the RAF.

Perhaps, when it is servicable, we could have a flypast just to remind us what we missed.

daddy flm

KWH

RELATIONSHIPS

Relationships were strained long before the return to flight of the majical tin triangle by a total belief that things can be done as and when without any regard to safety and indeed proceedures to operate in line with the caa.

This is still going on take biker boys glaring arrogance in telling people that he changed fuses to get 558 servicable for cowes another missed airshow
you may not be aware that this man under the documentation laid down and agreed by all parties he can not carry out this kind of rectification despite is age and expierience.

This is another GOOD GROUNDS FOR APPROVALLS BEEN REMOVED HAD THE A/C FLOWN then it would of been an illlegal flight no doubt tvoc would of claimed they did not understand or not aware leaving MA\to feel the force of the CAA

This is why the engineers are reluctant to issue approvalls to people as all throughout the project concerns had been raised as to the suitabillity of people in certain roles

It will be an ongoing battle until tvoc get the correct staff or the bloke at duxford buys the bloody thing and gives it to MA to operate my gues is the later part HE AS THE MONEY AND THE RESPECT IN THE INDUSTRY TO INSTALL CONFIDENCE IN THE MEETING OF TARGETS

simplethings

KWH

Sir, I salute you! At last, somebody appears to know what they are talking about!

Thank you

regards

simplethings

hunterboy

I think there does seem to be a problem with some egos in the TVOC. I was talking to a guy who was begged to come on board the project and told he was exactly the guy to sort out TVOC's problems ( he was doing similar stuff on 101 and 50 sqn and is one of the few engineers still working in aircraft engineering), yet when he agreed to help out at weekends, the TVOC baulked at 200 quid a day and instead offered some petrol money and a Vulcan mug for the wife. I gather that the TVOC have got pretty much what they have paid for. I wish them every success, as I hope to see 558 back in the air for the foreseeable future, however I do believe that a change in management is required.