kwh

Simplethings, I should point out that I know nothing and that I can only comment on what I see, read and deduce from afar. My only direct interest is as a sometime and occasional small scale donor to the restoration project, on the basis that seeing a Vulcan fly again would be 'a very cool thing'.

I imagine that the emotional investment in 'their Vulcan' at TVOC must be extremely high. I would also guess that the 'hands-on' people at TVOC are ex-RAF Vulcan technicians for whom all this is an obsessional labour of love, rather than an interesting exercise in the demonstrably safe and legal operation of a fantastically complicated one-of-a-kind retired military aeroplane capable of making a very big hole in the ground and taking a lot of people with it if it goes wrong.

I'm sure they would have given one of those same TVOC people a medal if they had creatively bodged a Vulcan together on Ascension Island so that it could successfully drop bombs on Port Stanley and help save lives/win a war, but I imagine the CAA would take a wholly negative view of them doing the same thing today for the benefit of impressing an airshow crowd; the risk-reward equation is totally different, as is the regulatory framework.

I'm tempted to suggest that people who wish to recapture their youth should buy themselves a shed and restore themselves an old British motorbike in it to ride on sunny days, rather than borrow a hangar and try to do the same thing with a Vulcan. Although perhaps without such people, nobody would have been insane enough to even try to get the thing flying again.

I suspect that in the same way as the other cottage industry preservation groups have managed, in quite amazing fashion, to keep Lightnings and the other Vulcans in ground-running and fast-taxiable condition without reams of paperwork and the CAA sniffing around them, the TVOC labour-of-love team would probably be entirely capable of safely operating 'their baby' almost without external support, if they were allowed to. But no Aviation Authority in their right mind is going to take that on trust, and if there are people in TVOC who are still chafing against the beaurocratic restrictions that the necessary oversight imposes at this stage in the project, then I'd suggest that they need to be pointed forcibly towards the Old British Motorbike in a Shed option (or even towards one of the several other ground-running Vulcan projects) and away from being involved with the CAA certified and airworthy one.

kwh

So, Rod of iron...

Assuming that the Marshalls personnel in question did feel fit and able and ready and willing to do six hours of voluntary overtime at the drop of a hat, and further feel capable of signing a piece of paper 4 hours in that could put them in jail and/or end their careers if they missed something or got it wrong, and then assuming that they had no other plans in their personal lives that they considered more important than doing said overtime, and that Marshalls were willing to pay them to do said 6 hours worth of overtime (none of which assumptions have been shown to be true), why exactly do you think that the engineers concerned should allocate that six hours of overtime to TVOC, and not to whatever project they are currently working on for Marshalls?

Handy hint: "Because the Vulcan and the TVOC are the centre of the universe around which all else must revolve" is not a useful answer, and neither is "Because the TVOC will post a petulant and stroppy press release if we don't!".

I'm sure if - for example - the A400M testbed was to fly a day earlier off the back of their voluntary out-of-hours efforts (no idea if that is what they are working on, but I guess it might be), Marshalls would have much more to gain than they would from signing off some fixes on an air-display aircraft.

If it never occurred to the TVOC during the many years or so available for planning, leading up to their first air show season, that at some point they were going to be requiring a rapid turn-around from Marshalls in order to make an airshow commitment, and that they therefore needed to contract with Marshalls for that level of response, then the people responsible for that fundamental failure of foresight need to be replaced.

If it did occur to them, but they decided that they could get away without paying for that level of response and instead try to browbeat Marshalls into providing it anyway, then that is worse.

Either way, I assume the direct financial impact of missing those last airshow commitments has got to be far greater on its own than the additional cost of contracting Marshalls to provide a more immediate response, thus demonstrating in one easy step the folly of going cheap in this regard. The wider cost for the project may be that this no-show is the last straw for the project's long term viability (assuming that there ever was long-term viability), which makes an extremely poor decision into a catastrophically bad one.

Dis Gruntled

Everybody is totally missing the point here, ma asked last week to pmr and then oops and mag plug changes 2 days work at least, espescialy as tvoc were not due in till tomorrow.

kwh

Pardon? Sorry, Je ne comprendez pas!

Dis Gruntled

kwh what is so difficult about that ?

JW411

Basically, it doesn't make any sense.

kwh

What he said.

I'm afraid I couldn't work out what it meant. I recognised a few of the words (though not others), but the order they were in defeated me entirely...

mustpost

KWH Hmm - got the drift staight away, so how come yr posts are sometimes very reasoned, and at other times seem to be written by another person? You should understand the abs..


(Prof journo alert here...me)

daddy flm

Well now guy's we all know tvoc management did not waste any time in letting joe public know whos court the blame was for a no show at the weekend.

Was vicky ready for certification it appears not so im informed but thats a sortable problem.

What i find funny is tvoc website post blaming all but themselves seems to of gone,lost, or deleted erm wonder why maybe a phone call from someone?

FOR ALL WHO WERE READY TO SLAG OFF AND ACCUSE THE GUYS AT MA

THIS IS FOR YOU


Marshall Aerospace and the Vulcan

The Vulcan Operating Company is enormously grateful to Marshall Aerospace for the technical expertise which it continues to provide and which enabled the aeroplane to return to flight. The Company has also committed a very significant amount to the funding of the project, and is committed to supporting the Vulcan.

The Vulcan is a highly complex aeroplane and as might be expected for an aeroplane of its age, technical defects have arisen and will continue to occur, and until they are rectified, it is simply not possible to fly the aeroplane on safety grounds.

Unfortunately on this occasion the necessary technical assistance from Marshall Aerospace was simply not available until 1 September.

We are 100% behind the VOC to support the Vulcan and were very disappointed that it was not available for Bournemouth.

Everyone here is looking forward to seeing the aeroplane perform at Duxford on 6/7 September.

NOTE THE WORDS

Expertise, Enormously grateful, Significant contribution, Funding 100%

This was a large chunk of humble pie for anyone to eat hope they get indegestion

Excert from MA aerospace website bet it does not appear on tvoc pages

kwh

I don't know - there is only one of me. I don't work in the aviation industry at all, which may mean that sequences of aviation-jargon acronyms defeat me and don't defeat you.

As for the suggestion that some of my posts make sense and others don't, maybe it depends on the phase of the moon? :-)

Dis Gruntled

Sorry kwh,
anyway too pmr the aircraft is too basically sign that its safe for flight and ALL correct procedures have been followed, oops are out of phase procedures which need too be done between servicing too many to list, and mag plug changes are an engine thing to do with metal deposits and stuff but will leave that one too ffm as engines too me are just noisy dirty things.
Just one thing that puzzles me though, when a MA tech turned up at bzn yesterday why was he unable too jack up the aircraft? Was it due too lack of people from tvoc, or tvoc breaking a jack recently and not getting one from the supplier until maybe today hmmm or maybe both hmmm again

LookingNorth

It's good to see you explaining one of your posts Dis Gruntled. I have prior to this imagined a spit-flecked monitor and an irate keyboard warrior bashing keys so fast his brain can't keep up with what his fingers are producing. That there is actually some semblance of meaning behind your posts has been most revealing and thought provoking and perhaps things aren't as one-sided as I had thought.

daddy flm, if "100% behind the VOC" means making no effort to help get the aeroplane ready for two airshow appearances, and letting their employees slag the project off on this forum, then I'd hate to see anything less than 100% support!

that chinese fella

Hi all,

I am totally unfamiliar with heavy military (ex-or otherwise) aircraft and the CAA or the jurisdiction the Vulcan operates, but can someone explain to me (and maybe others), under what conditions can it fly?

Does it have to be 100% serviceable?
Does it have a deferred defects list or MEL?

Sorry if this is an ignorant post, my interest is from afar, my father worked on them in the RAF as an avionics tech. He travelled with it on it's trip 'down under' on the the sales tour.

daddy flm

As you assume i work for Marshall's then let me advise you i have contats in both camps as for the 100% glad you managed to find a little negaive bit in the post.

Whilst on the subject at brize the two engineers have arrived one before tvoc botherd to turn up a/c jacked ready ?? not sure it was as only 2 tvoc engineers were there not enough to jack the old girl 100% who as a manager on a project that depends flying on weekends summer time allows the other 50% of thier staff be on holiday.

As for the quick couple of hours to sign the paperwork its now 2 days and still no definate slot to fly tomorrow surprise surprise still the MA guys are pushing on knowing no thanks will come from it.

Dis Gruntled

Well here is my cv,
RAF 89 to 97 workshops 5sqn at saints secialising in sheet metal work

97 to 98 2 sqn t saints mod on tonkas

98 till early last year contracting at a number of places including filton, luton, cambridge. leuchars, and of course the lovely st athan

March 07 to 19th oct
working on xh558 for 6 weeks lol could get the same money at home but stayed why?

oct 07 too jan 08
cambridge ma loved it

jan 08 too mar 08
filton bristol a400m fuel tank test bed

mar 08 to date
sheet metal bay supervisor at culdrose on the merlin


hope that helps

Synthetic

A very worrying scenario rears it's ugly head here - a falling out between TVOC and MA.

Or to put it another way, Endex

Cypherus

All very interesting Guys, but a little bitchyness is starting too creep in under the seams here.

I can along with many others understand the time line involved in this latest ‘Minor’ incident that seems to have so many in such a spin, if defeats my simple logic as to how so many others have failed too grasp the fact that 558 is indeed a venerable old lady that has seen better days, is constructed of what some might consider to be stone age, compared with today’s kit, equipment that in it’s prime was never all that reliable if not constantly serviced, maintained or replaced and even then still suffered failures.

It also beggars belief, and I make no attempt too defend the TVOC crew in anyway here, that folks cannot understand that this is the first time any group has attempted too return a Vulcan too flight status, as such there will be times when things once learned and practiced by many in the course of a days work have now to be relearned, failures of organization will occur, things will go wrong and there will be I am certain pages of recriminations posted on several forums.

However out the last few posts I have learned a lot about those that were and are involved directly with the project, and I am convinced that the professional personnel from inside and outside MA and TVOC will continue too work towards providing the public with as much flying time from 558 as possible given safety as the prime, this said there is not one shred of financial incentive beyond current contractual arrangements too cause MA to provide short notice staffing, something that is going to haunt the project for a long time, or until in house personnel of sufficient standing can be recruited who can hold the relevant authority to sign off.

Finally the calls for management changes at TVOC have been long and loud at times and have achieved nothing except too cause the current incumbents too batten down and become even less forthcoming, similar the calls for a more open and transparent view of the financial situation of the project have resulted in less information rather than more, so if there is out there an individual with the financial capability too take the project and place it on a commercial footing under direct control of MA, feel free to step up.

Pontius Navigator

There has been a lot of talk about how old 558 is but not how new she is for indeed she exhibits identical issues with new aircraft.

All aircraft exhibit the same serviceability trends. It is designed and built but even with modern techniques much work has to be done ironing out bugs. Initial serviceability is bad with a single aircraft often grounded for weeks.

Once it enters service new issues are found as newer aircrew and engineers gether hands on it and find new ways to break it. After a couple of years its quirks and vices are tamed and it becomes more reliable.

After many years service it is seem as a reliable workhorse and eventually retired or, as happens with many UK military aircraft, its service life is extended passed any originally conceivable end date and its serviceability again becomes an issue with experienced engineers nursing it along.

The question is where the Vulcan is on this model. In some instances it must be at the beginning of its life as there are few experienced type engineers used to operating the Vulcan - note I am talking about flight-line knowledge and not factory floor. On the other it might be considered beyond the end of its service-life.

I submit that it is nearer the begining than the end with the only consideration is not using the latest technology in its build.

spekesoftly

Meanwhile, does anyone know if the Vulcan is now fixed, and if so, the timings for its displays this week-end at Southport and Duxford ?

staplefordheli

its at cosby south Leics at 1400 this weekend both days at the victory show
according to the tVOC guy on radio leics this morning

Enjoy a 1940's Two Day Extravaganza - Victory Show 6th & 7th September 2008

assuming its not gone tech again