Vulcan XH 558 Threads (merged)
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- it appears that the presence of large number of the public will make it (a display) under CAA rules.
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Not a Boffin,
The CAA have a well laid down set of criteria for what constitutes a 'display' and it has nothing whatsoever to do with the number of people that may be watching at the time Sir. The same applies to a scheduled 'test flight' also, so the info you have been given is not correct.
I am with the cyclic-fondler and forget on this issue. It would be a massive PR gaff if they did not announce the date of the first 'flight' albeit only a test flight. The publicity would be enormous and would rejuvinate many of those supporters who have perhaps lost a bit of faith and interest in the project.
That said, there is clearly a danger with having loads of GA aircraft 'poodling around' but that should be controlable with the necessary NOTAMS etc.
Either way, lets not hide this event away, it needs to be brought to the fore to show the supporters and the public alike that things are progressing with the old girl.
The Winco
The CAA have a well laid down set of criteria for what constitutes a 'display' and it has nothing whatsoever to do with the number of people that may be watching at the time Sir. The same applies to a scheduled 'test flight' also, so the info you have been given is not correct.
I am with the cyclic-fondler and forget on this issue. It would be a massive PR gaff if they did not announce the date of the first 'flight' albeit only a test flight. The publicity would be enormous and would rejuvinate many of those supporters who have perhaps lost a bit of faith and interest in the project.
That said, there is clearly a danger with having loads of GA aircraft 'poodling around' but that should be controlable with the necessary NOTAMS etc.
Either way, lets not hide this event away, it needs to be brought to the fore to show the supporters and the public alike that things are progressing with the old girl.
The Winco
Winco
May be bolloeaux, but that's what Pleming is saying on the site...
http://www.tvoc.co.uk/news.asp
Happen to agree with making a big noise about it, but if it gets in the way of recertification, then it ain't helping.
May be bolloeaux, but that's what Pleming is saying on the site...
http://www.tvoc.co.uk/news.asp
Happen to agree with making a big noise about it, but if it gets in the way of recertification, then it ain't helping.
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Pleming.
That statement doesn't irritate me - it makes me bloody angry. Has this project really been under the control of a man so far out of touch with the aviation world? He’s either, being advised by half wits, or he’s lying to make a futile point. Either way, just another indicator of the ‘management’ this project has suffered from - located 30 miles south of my present position.
If the Wright brothers could have seen this they’d have stuck to bicycles.
anything approaching the numbers of VTS club members and friends (over 22,000 individual records) who would wish to attend would render the first test flight impossible, because it would legally become a display - something that an aircraft without a Permit to Fly could not carry out.
If the Wright brothers could have seen this they’d have stuck to bicycles.
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Green Singer Vogue dear boy, 'C' registered, London-Honington-Marham-King's Lynn-Coningsby-Waddington-Scampton-Hull-Finningley-Cottesmore-Wittering-Kensington Palace.
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Spotters Spot, they don't do airshows as people get in the way. Some spotters do photoshoots and get irate if people are allowed on both sides of an aircraft as legs spoil the shot.
At the Waddo airshow they will park on the Harmston Road for the Gnd to Air shots and not pay a penny. Even object to buying a programme.
Then why are they investing all this time/effort/money/hassle to get this old aeroplane back in the sky? Who is it for? If you remove the legions of "idiots and their little aluminium step ladders", then it seems like a massive investment in time and money for ....who?
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A question for the good Dr Plemming.......(although I don't expect a reply, but you never know) Sir, you say..........
VTS club members and friends (over 22,000 individual records) who would wish to attend would render the first test flight impossible, because it would legally become a display
Has someone at the CAA really said that, or have you just made it up for some obscure reason? Perhaps in the absence of the good Dr, some of the other 'experts' at Bruntingthorpe could shed some light on the statement?
If it isn't correct (and I will check with the ANO and other CAA docs') then it's yet another instance of more rubbish coming from this organisation.
BEagle. I wonder how many of those 'idiots' have donated to this cause? It is a little unfair of you to condemn them for having a real passion with aircraft. You and I have the same passion, the difference is that we have both been fortunate to let Mrs Windsor pay us for the privilage haven't we? Don't be too harsh on them.
Winco
VTS club members and friends (over 22,000 individual records) who would wish to attend would render the first test flight impossible, because it would legally become a display
Has someone at the CAA really said that, or have you just made it up for some obscure reason? Perhaps in the absence of the good Dr, some of the other 'experts' at Bruntingthorpe could shed some light on the statement?
If it isn't correct (and I will check with the ANO and other CAA docs') then it's yet another instance of more rubbish coming from this organisation.
BEagle. I wonder how many of those 'idiots' have donated to this cause? It is a little unfair of you to condemn them for having a real passion with aircraft. You and I have the same passion, the difference is that we have both been fortunate to let Mrs Windsor pay us for the privilage haven't we? Don't be too harsh on them.
Winco
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tstk, clearly you don't do airshows then.
The men on little ladders amount to a few hundreds nationwide, maybe low thousands. They even have their own magazines and B&Bs.
Airshows OTOH pack in from 1600 to 50000 or even 100000 per day.
At £12 per pop an airshow would take £1.2m. Now tell me just how much would a man on a ladder pay?
The men on little ladders amount to a few hundreds nationwide, maybe low thousands. They even have their own magazines and B&Bs.
Airshows OTOH pack in from 1600 to 50000 or even 100000 per day.
At £12 per pop an airshow would take £1.2m. Now tell me just how much would a man on a ladder pay?
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See you didn't comment on my point between freebie viewing and the paying public. One problem with the Vulcan though, it is so large that huge numbers will be getting a freebie anyway. Unless that is the police prevent off-site parking near the show.
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For what it's worth.
Dr Robert Pleming gained his Doctorate at the Department of Nuclear Physics at Oxford University . After a successful career in IT with IBM, in 1994 he moved to become the UK Technical Director for Cisco Systems, at a time when the company had only 18 employees in this country.
As an air cadet in 1968, Robert gained an RAF Flying Scholarship, and soloed in a Cessna 152 at Luton Airport . In the mid-'90s, a conversation with David Walton, owner of the recently grounded Avro Vulcan XH558, sparked the idea of putting together a formal proposal for the return of the awesome Vulcan to flight.
...
Robert built a team of expert advisors to investigate what needed to be done, and to guide the project's direction. This approach established sufficient credibility with British Aerospace and the Civil Aviation Authority for the decision to be taken to proceed with the activities necessary to achieve the return to flight.
In April 2000, with technical feasibility proved and the decision from British Aerospace to support the project behind him, Robert moved on voluntarily from his Cisco career to the full-time unpaid role of Project Director for what was then the Avro Vulcan XH558 Plan-to-Flight Project.
Since that time Robert has worked to bring the engineering project to the position in which it stands today, and his experience and lifelong enthusiasm for aviation contribute to ensuring a successful return-to-flight for this historic aircraft.
----------------------------
Name & Registered Office:
THE VULCAN OPERATING COMPANY LIMITED
LACEYS SOLICITORS
5 POOLE ROAD
BOURNEMOUTH
DORSET BH2 5QL
Company No. 03787161
Status: Active
Date of Incorporation: 10/06/1999
Country of Origin: United Kingdom
Company Type: Private Limited Company
Nature of Business (SIC(03)):
9999 - Dormant Company
Accounting Reference Date: 30/06
Last Accounts Made Up To: 30/06/2006 (DORMANT)
Next Accounts Due: 30/04/2008
Last Return Made Up To: 10/06/2007
Next Return Due: 08/07/2008
Dr Robert Pleming gained his Doctorate at the Department of Nuclear Physics at Oxford University . After a successful career in IT with IBM, in 1994 he moved to become the UK Technical Director for Cisco Systems, at a time when the company had only 18 employees in this country.
As an air cadet in 1968, Robert gained an RAF Flying Scholarship, and soloed in a Cessna 152 at Luton Airport . In the mid-'90s, a conversation with David Walton, owner of the recently grounded Avro Vulcan XH558, sparked the idea of putting together a formal proposal for the return of the awesome Vulcan to flight.
...
Robert built a team of expert advisors to investigate what needed to be done, and to guide the project's direction. This approach established sufficient credibility with British Aerospace and the Civil Aviation Authority for the decision to be taken to proceed with the activities necessary to achieve the return to flight.
In April 2000, with technical feasibility proved and the decision from British Aerospace to support the project behind him, Robert moved on voluntarily from his Cisco career to the full-time unpaid role of Project Director for what was then the Avro Vulcan XH558 Plan-to-Flight Project.
Since that time Robert has worked to bring the engineering project to the position in which it stands today, and his experience and lifelong enthusiasm for aviation contribute to ensuring a successful return-to-flight for this historic aircraft.
----------------------------
Name & Registered Office:
THE VULCAN OPERATING COMPANY LIMITED
LACEYS SOLICITORS
5 POOLE ROAD
BOURNEMOUTH
DORSET BH2 5QL
Company No. 03787161
Status: Active
Date of Incorporation: 10/06/1999
Country of Origin: United Kingdom
Company Type: Private Limited Company
Nature of Business (SIC(03)):
9999 - Dormant Company
Accounting Reference Date: 30/06
Last Accounts Made Up To: 30/06/2006 (DORMANT)
Next Accounts Due: 30/04/2008
Last Return Made Up To: 10/06/2007
Next Return Due: 08/07/2008
Awesome but Affordable
cyclic_fondler wrote -
"But wouldn't they miss out on a massive PR opportunity by not announcing the first flight date?
If they are worried about safety, why not make it an official event. Sort out parking on the airfield and charge the spectators a small nominal fee to see the aircraft getting rolled out, made ready for flight and then the taxi and the take off. Any monies made could go to the fund. Invite the press.
I'd rather turn on the news on BBC/ITV etc and hear ".... and thousands turned up to see the historic Vulcan Bomber XH 558 take to the skies again" rather than a damp squid in the form of "And finally an old RAF bomber flew again after restoration"
Article 80 of the ANO applies to any flying event where it is advertised and open to the public. It does not apply to aircraft at such an event that are landing or taking off in accordance with normal aviation practice. I doubt if any court would find this first test flight to be normal aviation practice.
If the event is private and not open to the public then Article 80 does not apply.
Should the first post restoration flight of the Vulcan ever take place then the last thing needed on that day is a huge crowd of onlookers, many of whom would be somewhat disenchanted at the almost inevitable holdups. I am sure the planned flight test crew would agree.
Yes, we can recall that first flight of Concorde so memorably described by Raymond Baxter at Toulouse. By all means invite the media but no others please.
Essential personnel only should be there and, despite their generosity, this does not include those whose cash has made the restoration possible.
Cheers,
Trapper 69
"But wouldn't they miss out on a massive PR opportunity by not announcing the first flight date?
If they are worried about safety, why not make it an official event. Sort out parking on the airfield and charge the spectators a small nominal fee to see the aircraft getting rolled out, made ready for flight and then the taxi and the take off. Any monies made could go to the fund. Invite the press.
I'd rather turn on the news on BBC/ITV etc and hear ".... and thousands turned up to see the historic Vulcan Bomber XH 558 take to the skies again" rather than a damp squid in the form of "And finally an old RAF bomber flew again after restoration"
Article 80 of the ANO applies to any flying event where it is advertised and open to the public. It does not apply to aircraft at such an event that are landing or taking off in accordance with normal aviation practice. I doubt if any court would find this first test flight to be normal aviation practice.
If the event is private and not open to the public then Article 80 does not apply.
Should the first post restoration flight of the Vulcan ever take place then the last thing needed on that day is a huge crowd of onlookers, many of whom would be somewhat disenchanted at the almost inevitable holdups. I am sure the planned flight test crew would agree.
Yes, we can recall that first flight of Concorde so memorably described by Raymond Baxter at Toulouse. By all means invite the media but no others please.
Essential personnel only should be there and, despite their generosity, this does not include those whose cash has made the restoration possible.
Cheers,
Trapper 69
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and charge the spectators a small nominal fee to see
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It has been mentioned about the obvious pre-flight preparation, taxi tests etc. It would be naive to think that there will be no spotters waiting for the first sign of movement let alone first flight.
It would be equally naive, although this is apparent in other spheres all the time, to ignore the speed of modern communications.
A stray bird is spotted and the cars arrive in minutes. 558 moves and people up to 50 miles away could be there in less than an hour. At my local airfield there are always cars in the car park watching and waiting 7 days per week good weather of fowl. (sic) In fact I would not mind betting they are there now. There will be people near Brunt with Airband receivers tuned and internet connections open ready to broadcast to the world.
It would be equally naive, although this is apparent in other spheres all the time, to ignore the speed of modern communications.
A stray bird is spotted and the cars arrive in minutes. 558 moves and people up to 50 miles away could be there in less than an hour. At my local airfield there are always cars in the car park watching and waiting 7 days per week good weather of fowl. (sic) In fact I would not mind betting they are there now. There will be people near Brunt with Airband receivers tuned and internet connections open ready to broadcast to the world.
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G-KEST
Sir, might I point out that the opening two lines of article 80 of the ANO states...
'Article 80 of the Air Navigation Order 2005 (ANO) provides for the regulation of flying displays and contains a requirement for prior permission from the CAA for such events'
As this is a test flight and will most certainly NOT be part of a flying display, would you be so kind and point me in the direction of the ANO that states otherwise?
The air test will almost certainly be conducted wholly at medium or high level, well out of the view of the public and it will certainly not form part of a flying display. I'm not even convinced that inviting the paying public constitutes a flying display in its own right either, but I will check on that.
I am curious to know why you are so against members of the public witnessing the first, and subsequent, air tests of this aircraft. Its the public that have, by and large, paid for the aircraft and its' restoration. Why do you now want to deny the very people responsible for its existance the opportunity to see it lift off again on its maiden flight? Its almost as if you have something to hide from them?
Even BAe don't make as much fuss about their test flights of MR4 and other aircraft. What is the problem?
The Winco
Sir, might I point out that the opening two lines of article 80 of the ANO states...
'Article 80 of the Air Navigation Order 2005 (ANO) provides for the regulation of flying displays and contains a requirement for prior permission from the CAA for such events'
As this is a test flight and will most certainly NOT be part of a flying display, would you be so kind and point me in the direction of the ANO that states otherwise?
The air test will almost certainly be conducted wholly at medium or high level, well out of the view of the public and it will certainly not form part of a flying display. I'm not even convinced that inviting the paying public constitutes a flying display in its own right either, but I will check on that.
I am curious to know why you are so against members of the public witnessing the first, and subsequent, air tests of this aircraft. Its the public that have, by and large, paid for the aircraft and its' restoration. Why do you now want to deny the very people responsible for its existance the opportunity to see it lift off again on its maiden flight? Its almost as if you have something to hide from them?
Even BAe don't make as much fuss about their test flights of MR4 and other aircraft. What is the problem?
The Winco
Awesome but Affordable
Winco,
A flying display is defined in the ANO as "any flying activity deliberately performed for the purposes of providing an exhibition or entertainment at an advertised event open to the public".
Make no mistake the flight will be seen as being both an exhibition and an entertainment for those present if it takes place at an advertised event open to the public such as you and others are promoting.
Cheers,
Trapper 69
A flying display is defined in the ANO as "any flying activity deliberately performed for the purposes of providing an exhibition or entertainment at an advertised event open to the public".
Make no mistake the flight will be seen as being both an exhibition and an entertainment for those present if it takes place at an advertised event open to the public such as you and others are promoting.
Cheers,
Trapper 69