Vulcan XH 558 Threads (merged)
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Well, I'm saddened that the majority on here feel that the aircrafts first flight should be kept as secret as possible, infact I'm quite annoyed by it.
As someone who has, over the years, donated generously to this cause, I feel somewhat betrayed that you will try to actively keep me and a great many other supporters from witnessing what we have all been striving to achieve. It is shameful to be frank.
I hope that there is now sufficient money left in the pot to finish this off, because I regret that I will think twice the next time they come round with the begging bowl (again!)
The Winco
ps, G-KEST, can you confirm that this air test will be regarded by the CAA as an 'air display' please? Thank you.
As someone who has, over the years, donated generously to this cause, I feel somewhat betrayed that you will try to actively keep me and a great many other supporters from witnessing what we have all been striving to achieve. It is shameful to be frank.
I hope that there is now sufficient money left in the pot to finish this off, because I regret that I will think twice the next time they come round with the begging bowl (again!)
The Winco
ps, G-KEST, can you confirm that this air test will be regarded by the CAA as an 'air display' please? Thank you.
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So let me get this right: it will be ok for all the gash 'hangers on' to be there, but not the enthusiasts or joe public eh?
No-doubt the invites will go out to a load of ex Vulcan people, probably ex RAF Airships who once 'saw a Vulcan in the 50's', maybe even get the CAS to say a few nice words when it lands. A handful of VIPs and of course local dignatries, the BBC and ITV will all be invited. Lets not forget SKY TV of course and any other media group - Key Publishing will undoubdebly be there as will Ian Allan group etc. I should think that the friends and family of all the aircrew and groundcrew will be there, together with the 'support staff' not to mention representatives from BAe, Marshalls et al.
Now, have I forgotten anyone? Oh yes I have, the great British public. The very people who have stumped up the vast majority of the money for this project. But they're not invited or even 'allowed' to be there are they? Is that right? Assuming that is the case, you should be ashamed Brunters.
This aircraft now belongs to us all - you, me and every other Brit. It dosn't belong to Plemming, Walton or anyone else, it belongs to the nation and you would do well to remember that when you try to exclude us from enjoying what we have paid for!
The excuse that this first test flight will be an 'air display' and is therefore not allowed by the CAA is utter nonesence. It smacks of being a convenient 'excuse' for a chosen few in this 'club' to say that they were at the first flight of '558, and the rest of us were not! Shameful.
TSM
No-doubt the invites will go out to a load of ex Vulcan people, probably ex RAF Airships who once 'saw a Vulcan in the 50's', maybe even get the CAS to say a few nice words when it lands. A handful of VIPs and of course local dignatries, the BBC and ITV will all be invited. Lets not forget SKY TV of course and any other media group - Key Publishing will undoubdebly be there as will Ian Allan group etc. I should think that the friends and family of all the aircrew and groundcrew will be there, together with the 'support staff' not to mention representatives from BAe, Marshalls et al.
Now, have I forgotten anyone? Oh yes I have, the great British public. The very people who have stumped up the vast majority of the money for this project. But they're not invited or even 'allowed' to be there are they? Is that right? Assuming that is the case, you should be ashamed Brunters.
This aircraft now belongs to us all - you, me and every other Brit. It dosn't belong to Plemming, Walton or anyone else, it belongs to the nation and you would do well to remember that when you try to exclude us from enjoying what we have paid for!
The excuse that this first test flight will be an 'air display' and is therefore not allowed by the CAA is utter nonesence. It smacks of being a convenient 'excuse' for a chosen few in this 'club' to say that they were at the first flight of '558, and the rest of us were not! Shameful.
TSM
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Brakes! Let’s look at where this discussion started.
Dr Pleming et al would very much like to host a private little party to launch ‘their’ aircraft.
His wacky attempt to exclude the great unwashed from the event went thus –
VTS club members and friends (over 22,000 individual records) who would wish to attend would render the first test flight impossible, because it would legally become a display.
Putting aside the notion that the benefactor of millions of £ of public money obviously views his contributors as exceedingly dim, just how does Dr Pleming intend to keep this event secret? It’s not possible.
The unwashed will most definitely turn up, invited or not, but don't expect canapes and a brolly. In reality, I don’t think anything has changed at all. Apart, perhaps, from the benefactors feeling a little peeved.
Dr Pleming et al would very much like to host a private little party to launch ‘their’ aircraft.
His wacky attempt to exclude the great unwashed from the event went thus –
VTS club members and friends (over 22,000 individual records) who would wish to attend would render the first test flight impossible, because it would legally become a display.
Putting aside the notion that the benefactor of millions of £ of public money obviously views his contributors as exceedingly dim, just how does Dr Pleming intend to keep this event secret? It’s not possible.
The unwashed will most definitely turn up, invited or not, but don't expect canapes and a brolly. In reality, I don’t think anything has changed at all. Apart, perhaps, from the benefactors feeling a little peeved.
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at the risk
At the risk of sounding like a villian.
I'd love to see the Vulcan fly again and it will. BUT i think the money raised to get it flying could have been spent on other more worthwhile things such as cancer research, so on and so on.
I would also like to ask how much a year its going to need to keep her flying.
looking at aircraft like Sally B and other wartime aircraft that struggle to get funds enough to run all year round. Which is peanuts compared to what the Vulcan is going to cost.
and before you all jump on me for my grammer Don't i know its crap no need to remind me.
I'd love to see the Vulcan fly again and it will. BUT i think the money raised to get it flying could have been spent on other more worthwhile things such as cancer research, so on and so on.
I would also like to ask how much a year its going to need to keep her flying.
looking at aircraft like Sally B and other wartime aircraft that struggle to get funds enough to run all year round. Which is peanuts compared to what the Vulcan is going to cost.
and before you all jump on me for my grammer Don't i know its crap no need to remind me.
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It could be you have a point Matt, but 558 represents something once great and our stance in the Cold war, and the men and women who watched out for us. I agree that cancer research funding should be higher, but lets scrape that extra from elsewhere.
Say hi to The Kimberley for me.
Say hi to The Kimberley for me.
Awesome but Affordable
The Winco asks -
"G-KEST, can you confirm that this air test will be regarded by the CAA as an 'air display' please? Thank you."
No of course I cannot, only the CAA does the regarding and, ultimately, only the courts will decide.
Cheers,
Trapper 69
"G-KEST, can you confirm that this air test will be regarded by the CAA as an 'air display' please? Thank you."
No of course I cannot, only the CAA does the regarding and, ultimately, only the courts will decide.
Cheers,
Trapper 69
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i agree
I agree it does stand for what us armed forces do/done.
But remember there are more easier ways of reminding people of what we do/done for the nation.
perhaps putting the money toward those who are injured in them wars would be far more useful.
I think Falklands/Iraq/Afgan vetrens would be more pleased that money raised can go towards treatment for the men and women who are injured in these wars protecting our intrests.
I would love to see the Vulcan fly but at the cost she has incurred id rather see the money spent somewhere else.
every time i see the web page its asking for another 30 grand or what have you. But i think to myself 30 grand would go a long way for people who have had the limbs blown off in the Falklands/Iraq/Afgan. Or for family support for those husbands/wifes/children who have lost there loved ones
But that is my opinion.
so don't all jump on me at once
oh yeah i say bring back the Royal tournament
something to feel proud about.
the kimberleys good but havn't been there for a while though
rafmatt
But remember there are more easier ways of reminding people of what we do/done for the nation.
perhaps putting the money toward those who are injured in them wars would be far more useful.
I think Falklands/Iraq/Afgan vetrens would be more pleased that money raised can go towards treatment for the men and women who are injured in these wars protecting our intrests.
I would love to see the Vulcan fly but at the cost she has incurred id rather see the money spent somewhere else.
every time i see the web page its asking for another 30 grand or what have you. But i think to myself 30 grand would go a long way for people who have had the limbs blown off in the Falklands/Iraq/Afgan. Or for family support for those husbands/wifes/children who have lost there loved ones
But that is my opinion.
so don't all jump on me at once
oh yeah i say bring back the Royal tournament
something to feel proud about.
the kimberleys good but havn't been there for a while though
rafmatt
Last edited by rafmatt; 27th Jul 2007 at 16:33.
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G-KEST
I have to say that I am confused by your comments Sir.
In the begining, you agree that this air test is a flying display and go on state:
'A flying display is defined in the ANO as "any flying activity deliberately performed for the purposes of providing an exhibition or entertainment at an advertised event open to the public".'
Which is quite correct. Then you quote article 80 and state:
'Article 80 of the ANO applies to any flying event where it is advertised and open to the public. It does not apply to aircraft at such an event that are landing or taking off in accordance with normal aviation practice. I doubt if any court would find this first test flight to be normal aviation practice'
Which again, is correct of course. But when I ask you to confirm that the CAA will regard this air test as an air display, you state:
'No of course I cannot, only the CAA does the regarding and, ultimately, only the courts will decide.'
So may I ask you for your own opiniion then? Do you consider an air test (this air test) to be a flying display? Because every pilot I have spoken to does not. As you will know, an air display requires months of planning, organisation and an immense amount of work behind the scenes. An air test does not. The fact that several thousand people may well come to see the aircraft depart and land, DOES NOT constitute an air display. Not only that, it implies that the crew will have already received 'display authorisation' from the CAA. I'm not sure how that is possible unless the aircraft has already flown, and the display have been rehersed and performed infron of the relevany authorities.
That being so, I think it would have been more honest of Plemming (and others) to just say 'we would prefer not to have any spectators at the first flight' instead of publishing a whole load of tosh about it being illegal as per the CAA?
Maybe Dr Plemming would like to comment? or anyone from Bruntingthorpe?
I have to say that I am confused by your comments Sir.
In the begining, you agree that this air test is a flying display and go on state:
'A flying display is defined in the ANO as "any flying activity deliberately performed for the purposes of providing an exhibition or entertainment at an advertised event open to the public".'
Which is quite correct. Then you quote article 80 and state:
'Article 80 of the ANO applies to any flying event where it is advertised and open to the public. It does not apply to aircraft at such an event that are landing or taking off in accordance with normal aviation practice. I doubt if any court would find this first test flight to be normal aviation practice'
Which again, is correct of course. But when I ask you to confirm that the CAA will regard this air test as an air display, you state:
'No of course I cannot, only the CAA does the regarding and, ultimately, only the courts will decide.'
So may I ask you for your own opiniion then? Do you consider an air test (this air test) to be a flying display? Because every pilot I have spoken to does not. As you will know, an air display requires months of planning, organisation and an immense amount of work behind the scenes. An air test does not. The fact that several thousand people may well come to see the aircraft depart and land, DOES NOT constitute an air display. Not only that, it implies that the crew will have already received 'display authorisation' from the CAA. I'm not sure how that is possible unless the aircraft has already flown, and the display have been rehersed and performed infron of the relevany authorities.
That being so, I think it would have been more honest of Plemming (and others) to just say 'we would prefer not to have any spectators at the first flight' instead of publishing a whole load of tosh about it being illegal as per the CAA?
Maybe Dr Plemming would like to comment? or anyone from Bruntingthorpe?
Awesome but Affordable
Article 80 does not apply to a flying display which is private event, although it might have been advertised, as long as those present are there by invitation only. It must not be open to the general public, whether paying or not. This was made clear a zillion posts ago.
Cheers,
Trapper 69
PS - Winco said -
"That being so, I think it would have been more honest of Plemming (and others) to just say 'we would prefer not to have any spectators at the first flight' "
To quote that memorable fictitious Minister - "you may well say that, however I could not possibly comment.....!!!"
Cheers,
Trapper 69
PS - Winco said -
"That being so, I think it would have been more honest of Plemming (and others) to just say 'we would prefer not to have any spectators at the first flight' "
To quote that memorable fictitious Minister - "you may well say that, however I could not possibly comment.....!!!"
Trapper, me old....
Don’t know if you’ve noticed, but whenever we get near to some significant event in the tortured life of XH-558, the grumpitude quotient seems to peak in the likes of The Winco and The Swinging Monkey. It’s kind of irritating, but I guess not terminal.
Ho hum
airsound.
PS How’s your Russian friend reacting to the imminent relaunching of the World’s Greatest Nuclear Bomber? No panic, I trust.
PPS. Winco, old bean, do you think you could do Dr Pleming the courtesy of spelling his name right?
Don’t know if you’ve noticed, but whenever we get near to some significant event in the tortured life of XH-558, the grumpitude quotient seems to peak in the likes of The Winco and The Swinging Monkey. It’s kind of irritating, but I guess not terminal.
Ho hum
airsound.
PS How’s your Russian friend reacting to the imminent relaunching of the World’s Greatest Nuclear Bomber? No panic, I trust.
PPS. Winco, old bean, do you think you could do Dr Pleming the courtesy of spelling his name right?
Awesome but Affordable
airsound -
You know my feelings on the need for the media to be there, Essential invited guests inevitable. Project personnel vital. General public totally unnecessary and a huge distraction with possible health and safety issues.
This issue is guaranteed to provoke sincerely held views forcefully expressed on all aspects. It is like a dormant volcano - just waiting for a prod..........!!!!
My distant cousin, Colonel Ivor Bolokov, SovAF(retired) is not exactly quaking in his snow tipped flying boots at the prospect of this mighty piece of BRITISH engineering being resurrected. Despite his surreptitious efforts with a succession of corroding Bears, Bisons, Badgers and Blinders to do the same thing. They have all come to naught. This due to the absence of any Russian Federation equivalent of the National Lottery Heritage Fund. His last epistle was of the opinion that VTTS could not afford the Avtur needed to get XH558 more than 250km from base so Moscow was safe pro-tem.
Cheers,
Trapper 69
You know my feelings on the need for the media to be there, Essential invited guests inevitable. Project personnel vital. General public totally unnecessary and a huge distraction with possible health and safety issues.
This issue is guaranteed to provoke sincerely held views forcefully expressed on all aspects. It is like a dormant volcano - just waiting for a prod..........!!!!
My distant cousin, Colonel Ivor Bolokov, SovAF(retired) is not exactly quaking in his snow tipped flying boots at the prospect of this mighty piece of BRITISH engineering being resurrected. Despite his surreptitious efforts with a succession of corroding Bears, Bisons, Badgers and Blinders to do the same thing. They have all come to naught. This due to the absence of any Russian Federation equivalent of the National Lottery Heritage Fund. His last epistle was of the opinion that VTTS could not afford the Avtur needed to get XH558 more than 250km from base so Moscow was safe pro-tem.
Cheers,
Trapper 69
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1st flights
Well, 'forget' & 'airsound' we'll have to agree to disagree...
The RNLI are REALLY public funded, but I don't reckon every lifeboat belongs to me or should invite me to every launch, despite my massive £4.00 a month.
As for the Vulcan, unless they've got invisibilty paint from the Americans, and fitted better than Halfords silencers on the jetpipes, this seems unlikely to go without notice - so the worthy public will probably get their fiver's worth of news, a fraction before the Vulcan To The Sky lot tell them anyway...
Airsound, you make a great pitch for the press which is completely opposite to all my dealings with them / you...if the Airbus had suffered a slight glitch and been delayed a day or two, and you'd been put up in a 'less than perfect' hotel in the meantime, I wonder how your feeling may have been altered ?!
As for someone mentioning " better a has been than a never wazza " I don't know who that was directed at, but the poster seems a plank & I'm very proud of my involvement with British military aircraft development, which went beyond taking happy-snaps...
DZ
The RNLI are REALLY public funded, but I don't reckon every lifeboat belongs to me or should invite me to every launch, despite my massive £4.00 a month.
As for the Vulcan, unless they've got invisibilty paint from the Americans, and fitted better than Halfords silencers on the jetpipes, this seems unlikely to go without notice - so the worthy public will probably get their fiver's worth of news, a fraction before the Vulcan To The Sky lot tell them anyway...
Airsound, you make a great pitch for the press which is completely opposite to all my dealings with them / you...if the Airbus had suffered a slight glitch and been delayed a day or two, and you'd been put up in a 'less than perfect' hotel in the meantime, I wonder how your feeling may have been altered ?!
As for someone mentioning " better a has been than a never wazza " I don't know who that was directed at, but the poster seems a plank & I'm very proud of my involvement with British military aircraft development, which went beyond taking happy-snaps...
DZ
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Discovery channel?
One has to wonder if they have tied themselveds in such a financial knot with tv rights etc,that they are contracually obliged to allow only certain "guests" to the test flight.Such as those whose companies have made a vast contribution or individuals who are fortunate enough to be able to donate a substantial amount,or,tv production companies who paid above the odds for the rights to cover the test.I understand that money is a VERY important thing for a project such as this,but many of us have done what we can with the little cash we can spare and a great many helped involuntary via the lottery funding."Don't bite the hand that feeds you" is a phrase that seems to ring true here.I think like so many things,the corporate guest is the most important,not those who remember seeing these glorious machines in their heyday and want to witness that,maybe just once more.I can appreciate this may sound daft,but I follow Formula 1 and the same disease has spread through that sport.
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Is it just me, or has anyone else noticed that The Winco and The Swinging Monkey seem almost unnaturally similar, in both post content and tone?
Add that to the fact that The Winco is from 'Geordie Land' and The Swinging Monkey is a reference to Hartlepool, where a monkey was hung on suspiscion of being a French spy?
Hmmmmm.
Posting one after the other too. Have a look through their posts, you too may find a spooky similarity.
Flipflopman
Add that to the fact that The Winco is from 'Geordie Land' and The Swinging Monkey is a reference to Hartlepool, where a monkey was hung on suspiscion of being a French spy?
Hmmmmm.
Posting one after the other too. Have a look through their posts, you too may find a spooky similarity.
Flipflopman
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I really don't think there's anything sinister re. corporate types getting preferential treatment ( I am not involved with the Vulcan project ) - just common sense that with a very complicated aircraft on a 1st flight which may be delayed for a minute or a month for technical or political reasons, it would only bring bad publicity to have people stand around & nothing to happen.
A gang hanging around expectantly might put undesirable pressure on the ground & air crew too...
A gang hanging around expectantly might put undesirable pressure on the ground & air crew too...
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Tech probs.
A good point and one I hadn't considered,do you think the 'guests' will get a refund excluding wine and snacks used?If no go?If there is any chance of failiure,then there should be NO ONE invited except those who NEED to be there.Then,once we can be assured that nothing will go wrong,'ping!!!!' we can all be there.Much fundraising is all it is.I'm sure many who will be there couldn't give a stuff about 558.I will be at the perimiter fence,if I find out when the date is.I've waited too long for this.
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Flip-flop - I've no connection with any of this, but having known a few (and mackams) I severely doubt that any monkey-hanger would have anything whatsoever to do with Toon-town. And vice-versa.