Vulcan XH 558 Threads (merged)
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He apologised for the lack of information granted, but the reason it was in that position in the first place was down to piss poor management... and putting out a newsflash on Friday at 12 midnight would do squat for those that had travelled there and stayed over to get in early Saturday Morning, when they would have had a good idea on Thursday that it would not fly.
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hurn,
When the aircraft landed last Thursday at Waddington, it did so with the Chf Exec and his Chf Engineer knowing that they DID NOT have a permit to fly secured to display the aircraft at the weekend.
They also knew full well, that the major point and an aedit from the granting of the first PtF 12 months previous, was a requirement set down by the CAA for the testing of certain airframe parts of 603 at Woodford. They knew that without those results, the CAA were (at very best) highly unlikely to renew the permit.
So, they knew Thursday, and they knew Friday that the chances of the aircraft flying were less than slim, unless the CAA made a massive concession.
And who made the decision at midnight on Friday? Are you seriously suggesting that they were in talks all Thursday and all Friday right up until midnight? What were they discussing?? Where the nearest take-away was from Waddo?? Get a grip man. They clung on and on until it was impossible to push out a statment to the public, all the time saying that it was ther CAA that they were waiting on.
And thereby lies the problem Sir. They knew!
Now, if you think it is fair and honourable NOT to advise the great British public of those FACTS, then you are entitled to your views, but I regret that you are in a very tiny mionority. The public felt cheated and whats more, they were cheated by a fiasco of monumental proportions and one that might well signal the sad end to this project.
Without the good will of the public, the project has no future, and they will remember last weekend with anger the next time the sob stories come out and threats are made about the aircraft being 'grounded for good' unless they raise another £XXXXXX
Bubbles. I don't know anyone who could and would want to take on this project. But, there must be plenty who are infinately more capable of running better that this current bunch of 'self-appointed experts'
Piss poor management? I don't even think it's that good!
When the aircraft landed last Thursday at Waddington, it did so with the Chf Exec and his Chf Engineer knowing that they DID NOT have a permit to fly secured to display the aircraft at the weekend.
They also knew full well, that the major point and an aedit from the granting of the first PtF 12 months previous, was a requirement set down by the CAA for the testing of certain airframe parts of 603 at Woodford. They knew that without those results, the CAA were (at very best) highly unlikely to renew the permit.
So, they knew Thursday, and they knew Friday that the chances of the aircraft flying were less than slim, unless the CAA made a massive concession.
And who made the decision at midnight on Friday? Are you seriously suggesting that they were in talks all Thursday and all Friday right up until midnight? What were they discussing?? Where the nearest take-away was from Waddo?? Get a grip man. They clung on and on until it was impossible to push out a statment to the public, all the time saying that it was ther CAA that they were waiting on.
And thereby lies the problem Sir. They knew!
Now, if you think it is fair and honourable NOT to advise the great British public of those FACTS, then you are entitled to your views, but I regret that you are in a very tiny mionority. The public felt cheated and whats more, they were cheated by a fiasco of monumental proportions and one that might well signal the sad end to this project.
Without the good will of the public, the project has no future, and they will remember last weekend with anger the next time the sob stories come out and threats are made about the aircraft being 'grounded for good' unless they raise another £XXXXXX
Bubbles. I don't know anyone who could and would want to take on this project. But, there must be plenty who are infinately more capable of running better that this current bunch of 'self-appointed experts'
Piss poor management? I don't even think it's that good!
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Originally Posted by hurn
If you don't want to donate any more then that's your prerogative, but be careful what you wish for, because if the witch hunt succeeds then you might find there's no-one willing to take over and no Vulcan flying in the UK anymore.
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I am all for balanced discussions and have not entered into the 'hang em high' debate.
I would like to know how many current - qualified - certifying engineers there are on the Vulcan. I note that a previous post involved with rectifying the defect that prevented the Vulcan appearing at Biggin on the Sunday said something along the lines that 'I am now going to resume my holiday'. This may not be related, but I do remember last year that a shortage of certifying engineers on the Vulcan was an issue. Has this now been resolved? Is there a plan to have sufficient certification staff/mechanics to deal with routine, and planned maintenance/defect rectification on the aircraft for the whole display season 24/7? Because that is what is required.
I agree with the school of thought that even if all systems on an aircraft are 's', the aircraft cannot be declared serviceable unless all aspects of its airworthiness are addressed and this includes the paperwork. Documentation control is a 'black art' in itself and those who are involved in aircraft maintenance will probably agree that good Planners/Tech Services/Defect Analysts are worth their weight in gold.
As for the capabilities of the current VTS Management, it is not for me to say. I would say however that if the number of mistakes regarding the decisions and actions made are indeed correct, in commercial aviation or indeed many other businesses, the abilty of the individuals concerned would have been brought into question long ago regarding their suitability to hold the position they do.
At present, there are staff reductions in commercial aviation being announced almost daily. The Vulcan is a commercial operation. People pay money to see it...
There are a lot of very capable people out of work as we speak and the likelihood of them being re-employed in aviation in this country in the short term is slight. One of my sons who is in aviation has had to go and work overseas for that very reason. He had alook round the UK aviation job market recently and there are literally no jobs in his role and it is likely to get worse before it gets better.
Why don't the experienced managers who know how to make a commercial aviation operation work come forward and take on the Vulcan?
Because they know that in the long term the project will fail. It is not a matter of 'if', it is a matter of 'when'.
I woud ask those who are to stop letting your head rule your heart. I would really like to see the project succeed in the long term, but in reality look at what needs to be done to do so and ask yourself in reality if it is feasible. Suerly, even the most committed must see this?
We all know that there will be more appeals for money from the public. Just look at the number of posts stating that they will be withdrawing their financial support. You don't have to go any further than that. No money, no project. And I will say again, a no show of the Vulcan at the airshow is more obvious to the public than any other display apart from the red arrows. No show today means reduced bookings next year. And we know where reduced bookings will lead us.
I admire the loyalty expressed by some, even now, but please listen to us who are involved with and watching the hopefully temporary decline in commercial aviation in this country at present. Many well established airlines are struggling to meet ends meet. Can I ask if the operators and supporters of the Vulcan feel immune to the current economic situation and if so, can they please explain why?
I would like to know how many current - qualified - certifying engineers there are on the Vulcan. I note that a previous post involved with rectifying the defect that prevented the Vulcan appearing at Biggin on the Sunday said something along the lines that 'I am now going to resume my holiday'. This may not be related, but I do remember last year that a shortage of certifying engineers on the Vulcan was an issue. Has this now been resolved? Is there a plan to have sufficient certification staff/mechanics to deal with routine, and planned maintenance/defect rectification on the aircraft for the whole display season 24/7? Because that is what is required.
I agree with the school of thought that even if all systems on an aircraft are 's', the aircraft cannot be declared serviceable unless all aspects of its airworthiness are addressed and this includes the paperwork. Documentation control is a 'black art' in itself and those who are involved in aircraft maintenance will probably agree that good Planners/Tech Services/Defect Analysts are worth their weight in gold.
As for the capabilities of the current VTS Management, it is not for me to say. I would say however that if the number of mistakes regarding the decisions and actions made are indeed correct, in commercial aviation or indeed many other businesses, the abilty of the individuals concerned would have been brought into question long ago regarding their suitability to hold the position they do.
At present, there are staff reductions in commercial aviation being announced almost daily. The Vulcan is a commercial operation. People pay money to see it...
There are a lot of very capable people out of work as we speak and the likelihood of them being re-employed in aviation in this country in the short term is slight. One of my sons who is in aviation has had to go and work overseas for that very reason. He had alook round the UK aviation job market recently and there are literally no jobs in his role and it is likely to get worse before it gets better.
Why don't the experienced managers who know how to make a commercial aviation operation work come forward and take on the Vulcan?
Because they know that in the long term the project will fail. It is not a matter of 'if', it is a matter of 'when'.
I woud ask those who are to stop letting your head rule your heart. I would really like to see the project succeed in the long term, but in reality look at what needs to be done to do so and ask yourself in reality if it is feasible. Suerly, even the most committed must see this?
We all know that there will be more appeals for money from the public. Just look at the number of posts stating that they will be withdrawing their financial support. You don't have to go any further than that. No money, no project. And I will say again, a no show of the Vulcan at the airshow is more obvious to the public than any other display apart from the red arrows. No show today means reduced bookings next year. And we know where reduced bookings will lead us.
I admire the loyalty expressed by some, even now, but please listen to us who are involved with and watching the hopefully temporary decline in commercial aviation in this country at present. Many well established airlines are struggling to meet ends meet. Can I ask if the operators and supporters of the Vulcan feel immune to the current economic situation and if so, can they please explain why?
Last edited by Tempsford; 10th Jul 2009 at 10:37.
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Whats plan B?
So there has been a major problem. Explanations have been offered, fingers pointed, punters angry. But what is Plan B? How is the PTF going to be reolved and in what timescale? And, more importantly, who pays?
Then have the unit inquirey.
Then have the unit inquirey.
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BBC radio Lincs just put interview on 13-00 news with RP saying that he was optimistic 558 would depart late this afternoon (Frid) as all the paperwork was in and they were awaiting CAA approval?
but he couldn't guarantee it
Weather is a bit stormy over Rutland with some nasty clouds heading towards Waddo
assume it will go to down to Yeovilton unless BZ first
but he couldn't guarantee it
Weather is a bit stormy over Rutland with some nasty clouds heading towards Waddo
assume it will go to down to Yeovilton unless BZ first
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is she airborne yet?
anyone up at waddo as my 10 yr old is waiting in the garden in Rutland
i did toy with taking him there but given the reliability issues and the fact he is off with a cold i passed on it
anyone up at waddo as my 10 yr old is waiting in the garden in Rutland
i did toy with taking him there but given the reliability issues and the fact he is off with a cold i passed on it
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Hi yes just found the twitter for her
http://twitter.com/XH558
also bbc lincs just came off phone from guy who said she was spooling up to txi
problem is a vulcan has already flown over Grantham before 5:00 according to their listeners!!
Must be that rogue one from wellesborne doing a victor impression!
http://twitter.com/XH558
also bbc lincs just came off phone from guy who said she was spooling up to txi
problem is a vulcan has already flown over Grantham before 5:00 according to their listeners!!
Must be that rogue one from wellesborne doing a victor impression!
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just passed over cottesmore and Oakham due south at 1808
looked great at about 3000 feet or less even did a wing wable over oakham must have seen us stood on the roof!!
made up for missing her at wado
looked great at about 3000 feet or less even did a wing wable over oakham must have seen us stood on the roof!!
made up for missing her at wado
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Well that's some good news she got there safely
Hope she takes off again tomorrow at Yeovilton and displays OK
Thinking of going to RIAT on the Monday as the kids are off and I have weeks holiday although will she still be there or gone to BZ after her display at Riat on the Sunday
Anyone in the know?
Also who is running the twitter updates or has she now got a microwave radio text service on her avionics package?
XH558 (XH558) on Twitter
Assume someone is texting twitter from the ground support, relaying positions
very good idea however if you have a mobile that supports it to find out what is happening
If anyone is reading from TVOC, I had an idea that you could use on the website. How about a set of lights on the front page to show her status I.e green amber or red
self explanatory really and easy to see at a glance if further investigation into status is needed prior to a show. I.e she should have been showing amber for most of the week running up to Waddo going red at midnight on the frid and then green tonight
easy really
Still needs updating regularly of course but with mobiles and wireless laptops, it isn't hard to do believe me as I run a couple of websites
Informing the public should be number 1 priority
Oh and thanks again for the free low level show over Oakham and Rutland
we were the ones stood on the garage roof waving like mad
brilliant
Hope she takes off again tomorrow at Yeovilton and displays OK
Thinking of going to RIAT on the Monday as the kids are off and I have weeks holiday although will she still be there or gone to BZ after her display at Riat on the Sunday
Anyone in the know?
Also who is running the twitter updates or has she now got a microwave radio text service on her avionics package?
XH558 (XH558) on Twitter
Assume someone is texting twitter from the ground support, relaying positions
very good idea however if you have a mobile that supports it to find out what is happening
If anyone is reading from TVOC, I had an idea that you could use on the website. How about a set of lights on the front page to show her status I.e green amber or red
self explanatory really and easy to see at a glance if further investigation into status is needed prior to a show. I.e she should have been showing amber for most of the week running up to Waddo going red at midnight on the frid and then green tonight
easy really
Still needs updating regularly of course but with mobiles and wireless laptops, it isn't hard to do believe me as I run a couple of websites
Informing the public should be number 1 priority
Oh and thanks again for the free low level show over Oakham and Rutland
we were the ones stood on the garage roof waving like mad
brilliant
Last edited by staplefordheli; 10th Jul 2009 at 20:48. Reason: beacuse i cant spell!!
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Glad she made it to the South West.
I hope 558 will pop up to Lasham tomorrow afternoon as planned.
I have read on another forum that one of the main landing gear only has 5 more landing before being replaced. So assume one tomorrow, one on Friday at RIAT, Sat, Sun at RIAT, thats 2 then to Brize (5) to replace it. I assume Brize as it's not going back to Bruntingthorpe?
Standard mobile SMS messaging from a mobile phone does work from the aircraft. I know that for a fact!
I hope 558 will pop up to Lasham tomorrow afternoon as planned.
I have read on another forum that one of the main landing gear only has 5 more landing before being replaced. So assume one tomorrow, one on Friday at RIAT, Sat, Sun at RIAT, thats 2 then to Brize (5) to replace it. I assume Brize as it's not going back to Bruntingthorpe?
Standard mobile SMS messaging from a mobile phone does work from the aircraft. I know that for a fact!
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Damien Burke is the official 'man on the ground' twitterer, and a good job he does too. 
Fantastic news today that the permit came in and they could fly to Yeovilton. 3 month extension to the Ptf by all accounts, which should cover the remaining display season.
Hope the weather and visibility isn't so bad tomorrow so that she (and the others) can display, but at least they've made the effort to get there and I'm just happy I'll to be able to see the old girl again 'in the flesh'.
Sea Vixen there too, got a new brolly, fantastic, can't wait!
Fantastic news today that the permit came in and they could fly to Yeovilton. 3 month extension to the Ptf by all accounts, which should cover the remaining display season.
Hope the weather and visibility isn't so bad tomorrow so that she (and the others) can display, but at least they've made the effort to get there and I'm just happy I'll to be able to see the old girl again 'in the flesh'.
Sea Vixen there too, got a new brolly, fantastic, can't wait!
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