Air NZ Jet
 

Hi all

Can anyone in the know advise what the current situation is like in the Air NZ jet fleet furlough/redundancy hold pool is? Last I heard the training plan only had about 200 pilots back before 2024 with only 50 or so actually invited. That was in Feb this year, so presuming things have changed since then a little?

200 by the end of roster 11 this year was the news in July. I suspect everyone will have had an opportunity very soon and then they will start working their way back up the list.

Edit: If you're asking because you want to know when they might start recruiting, you will need to go via the turboprops and they're recruiting right now.

Thanks for the info. I'm a little old to be joining a 10+ year waiting list for a jet interview. Mostly just curious about how the recovery is going back home.

Faster than any of us imagined.

Slower and more painful than necessary because those that highlighted obvious points were ignored/belittled.

No doubt.

Recruitment policies are always changing, but the current mantra is the pathway to Jet will be via the Regionals and they plan to plan to increase regional crewing numbers to achieve it.
No talks of Joint Seniority that I’m aware of, so if/when demand requires external hiring again, there won’t be Seniority issues.

In the short to medium turn however, there’s still a lot of names to be recalled to Jet.
On Paper, of the 300 odd Redundant/Furloughed Pilots, we’re almost at the bottom of the list, but that’s because 120 odd have taken LWOP so there’s going to be some back filling once we reach the bottom.

Total numbers, we’re about 200 Pilots short of pre-COVID numbers but the 8x 777-200’s are gone and their replacements are a few years away yet. We’re currently recalling pilots to Re-Crew the 777-300’s and all the seat changes that creates, once that’s done it’ll slow down.

Thanks El Zilcho. I understand it's impossible to get a cover-all answer here but why would guys higher on the seniority list take LWOP instead of returning? Were they holding out for a LH spot?

because majority of them are regional captains who were awarded positions on the jet fleet but never actually started. When Covid hit they were made “redundant” and are now faced with a decision to resign from
their current role, have to go on training pay (60k) for a few months and start at the bottom of the jet pay scale. Oh and probably have to move to Auckland.

so they take lwop :ok:

As dctPub said, a lot of them will be Regional pilots and their reasons will be varied. Some Regional pilots were on a Jet Course when COVID hit and found themselves redundant, having resigned from the Links, and on training pay. So I suspect some are keen to hold onto their Seniority for a while longer.

But there are some Jet Pilots who took LWOP as well, could be a number of reasons. Notice periods at their current jobs, waiting for their preferred fleet, not ready to return… whole host of reasons to be honest. In the end, I suspect we’ll see I few resignations, but most will probably take a course in time.

Thanks fellas appreciate the info 👍🏼

Well looks like the best place to be is not in air nz regional but in a foreign jet operator as doors are going to open up to externals. Once again regional pilots will be shot down for recruitment opportunities as we are only gardeners clearly.

So you haven’t read the RPPP I take it? :rolleyes:

Honestly, the timing is amusing.
Zero talk of external Recruitment to Jet yet has a rant on Prune about it the day before a Company memo stating a 100% internal recruitment goal.

Honestly, the top half of the RSL is the best place to be right now.
Just submit a standing bid for S8/7 or F20 and wait your turn.

So when Air NZ needs bulk pilots again it will be Tag and Release 2.0 it seems?

Also some oddly specific clauses restricting external pilots in there, 8 years away from the regionals (the ol' jetconnect loophole) and stipulated experience for external candidates (well and truly above and beyond the company minimum requirements). Those few CX SOs that "slipped through" :=

Someone must have had a bone to pick.

Yep, someone clearly has an axe to grind with people "jumping the queue" and it's quite pathetic.
There’s was already a 2 year stand down in place if you left the group, but seems it got ignored for a brief period in 2017(ish) which has caused this traitor mentality.

The concept that many left the Links to actually get paid a decent wage while progressing their careers never seemed to occur to certain individuals.
Admittedly, with Eagle being no more and blended T-Prop Payscales that's less of an issue these days. Would anyone be surprised to hear that the bulk of Pilots who left the Links to fly Jets for the Aussies are ex-Eagle? I wonder why….?

I’m an outsider looking in and have no concept of the realities of tag and release but do the regionals have such training capacity that when Jet fleet ask for 100 pilots exclusively internally they can just push through 100 command courses on a whim?

As a kiwi overseas (due to family, not queue-jumping) it has taken a while to come to terms with the fact that I may never get the chance to fly for the home carrier. Not saying it’s a right, but it would have been nice to have the chance to apply. I still find the new ethos quite an interesting proposal operationally.

Well with 2 Fleets, it would be 50 each so probably not a major hurdle, especially if they plan ahead for it. They couldn’t sustain that for consecutive years however as they’d run out of qualified FO’s to upgrade. That’s where Tag and Release would come in, but honestly at a ratio of 9:1 it would be an absolute shambles.

The current plan will work very well for the senior Link Pilots, most of which are well and truly due for a pathway to Jet. Long term however, many of us believe its going to create more problems than it solves and we’ll see more changes.

External or Internal, getting into Air NZ is often about timing, and which way the pendulum has swung when you apply.
Why they can never strike a balance between the 2 is beyond my pay grade.

Could be wrong here, but it’s only Dash and ATR drivers excluded for 8 years hey? Not Eagle - because of the company being closed?

Correct

An 'outsider' weighing up TP pathway, conceeding Ext Jet looks unlikely/will be extremly compeditive. Can anyone provide insight as to rough timeline to TP Capt for someone willing to be Auckland based (understand many FO's would rather be elsewhere due COL) and has an ATPL ? Thank in advance.

I was chatting to a Senior person at Air NZ last week and was told they are facing a recruitment crunch. He said that quite a few people coming from the Turbo Props are struggling with the Jet transition and the company is rapidly coming to the conclusion they will have to recruit external candidates onto the A320 to keep up. I asked about the recruit to group and he said they had got around that before and could again if required.

We all knew this would happen, we all knew who the trainings risks were, but the RPP chose to ignore everything and give every T-Prop Pilot, effectively seniority rights into Jet.

As such, the 35 year old, ATR/Q300 Captain, with 7-10 years in the Links now, has to wait for some disgruntled Captain with 3 failed interview attempts already to then fail his/her Type Rating and hope Air NZ doesn’t turn away from Link Pilots again before he/she gets their first look in.

Who could have possibly thought this was a good idea? Oh that’s right, the Regional Council who basically wrote their own pathway.

I wonder if those joining will realise the seniority number they get puts them behind many hundreds of other group pilots so an A320 FO spot may be where you end up for a long time.

Well it wont be behind hundreds, not yet anyway.
Regionals still have a separate Seniority list and their ability to bid for Jet Vacancies is within their list only... we haven't got a joint Seniority list.
If the company does start hiring externals, they can do so on a 1:9 ratio, being 1 external for every 9 regionals without any problems... this means 1:9 Pilots actually employed and appointed to Jet Courses.
However, if they can't meet the 1:9 Ratio we get into Tag and Release, which is where the problems occurred previously. For every External Pilot Hired (outside the 1:9 ratio), then 4 Regional Pilots get a reserved Jet Seniority number ahead of that External hire, they get "Tagged and Released" back to the Regionals. As we saw before COVID, that quickly added up to 100 or so Regional Pilots on reserved numbers and externals started pulling their applications and not fronting for interviews.

However, in raw numbers terms, there should be no reason to require externals in the next 12-24 months, certainly not above the 1:9 ratio as the Links are quite well stocked and the recent Jet Course plan is quite slow. If they are forced to turn externally because of Regional Pilots failing courses, this isn't a Regional specific problem... the problem is who they're hiring, not where they're coming from.

The revolving door of the bottom 30-40% of the links is about to spin much faster.

Also, imagine failing SO line training. Lmao.

The pub rumour mill has it that a small external recruitment for 320 RHS will happen this year. Any validity to it?

Word on the street is that they will be able to cover everything internally.

Never say never though, if they do they'll be looking for Space Shuttle Commanders.

Meanwhile in the States, 4.5 months to a 767/757 command with Delta.

The downsides of a small albeit awesome country.

The Turboprop Strategic Command has stipulated some very stringent experience requirements for hiring outside the RPPP.

Overseas experience doesn't hold a candle to the trials and tribulations of flying around NZ.

Expecting any external positions to be over subscribed.

Well I've heard there are plenty of overseas experienced former jet pilots currently going through the link process. I'm told that there are more than a few ex Cathay, EK, KE and QR drivers who have been employed as the Links offer regional bases, a relatively quick transition back to the LHS and virtually no deep night flying. Not a bad deal IMHO if you've been overseas and made your money 😉

This thread is about air nz jet. My comment above was about nzalpa turboprop council stipulating experience requirements for external applicants to the jet fleet.

The overseas jet drivers will probably use that as a job seeking allowance and go to jetconnect or jetstar, as one has already recently.

Doing 4-5 sectors a day, with massive waits at the airport, for 70k a year isn't sustainable for those used to doing 1 in 1 out.

Due to COVID, a number of experienced expats found themselves either needing or wanting employment back home. Not many options here, and, for the time being, the only point of entry into Air NZ is the Regional fleets.

Some were unsuccessful, others turned down the offer. How many have actually started? No idea, probably more than 0 but the Links aren’t overflowing with Expat Jet Skippers.

What kind of things have they demanded?

1. External pilots must meet the following criteria:

a. have at least 12 months Part 121 (or equivalent weight category) turboprop command experience; or

B. have at least 12 months Part 121 or Part 125 (or equivalent weight category) jet first officer experience; or

c. have Part 121 or Part 125 (or equivalent weight category) jet captain experience; or

D.have at least 12 months fixed wing command experience with the RNZAF or other air force on aircraft at least equivalent in weight category to Part 121 turboprop aircraft.

Keep in mind this is the turboprop council making up these requirements. Not the company.

Does that mean they only accept experience with NZ operators or would a lowly Jet Captain with an International Legacy Carrier qualify them for a job with Air NZ? I do wonder how I ever survived flying in and out of NZ with an International carrier despite it being 20 years since I had flown a turboprop domestically around the countryside given that NZ has things like Mountains and wind which apparently don’t exist anywhere else.

I think the "or weight equivalent" would cover international experience.

It seems that people got their panties in a twist when a couple of CX SOs "got through" and "skipped the queue" when ANZ was recruiting jet externals.

The real question is why are experienced regional pilots failing training onto a 320?
Elsewhere in the developed world you go from a 172 to the 320.

I have trained quite a few Turboprop pilots onto Jets and I have to say ‘more’ turboprop experience can ‘sometimes’ hinder the transition as the thought process of energy management is totally different. Long time on Turboprops mixed with older age are a bit of a bad mix when moving to a large jet. Not always but sometimes.

The easiest pilots to train were MPL Cadets up in the UK who arrived at the jet with 180 hours and 80 hours in the A320 simulator learning to fly the jet. Age also helped as they could look at a manual and retain it. Of course as with everything there were exceptions and a few MPL students also failed.

Being able to skip the normal recruitment process of perhaps a simulator assessment will mean those who are going to struggle are only identified in the type rating which is a waste of everyone’s time.

Very few have outright failed, but there’s definitely been a spike in extra training required.

It’s not a problem “Regional Pilot problem” it’s a problem with removing the filter. The overwhelming majority of Regional Pilots have no issues transitioning to Jets, be it Air NZ, J* Cathay etc

Could be rough few months for the training department, but eventually things will settle down after certain regional pilots have either washed out or been carried over the line.

Its a very unique issue caused by allowing the Regional Council to write their own Jet Pathway, removing all screening processes and applying a punitive 8 year stand down to anyone who dared further their careers outside the group. Once we’ve filtered through the top heavy Regional List expect things should settle down.