We took our '9 externals for the year' a few weeks ago. First external assessment day, all applicants got through. Any more externals taken this year will trigger appoint and second.

Good gen thanks 👍🏼

Did they all go a320 akl?

I could stand to be corrected but I don’t think they will have course start dates/fleets yet. When they put out the course advertisements it states whether regional pilots can be released to fill the roles. If they can’t be released then they would fill them with externals but that’s supposed to be later this year.

AKL is not something you "go for". Air New Zealand has one, and only one, pilot base. Whether you're on the A320 or one of the Boeings, you are Auckland based. There are domiciles (and the difference is getting pretty technical these days) but as an external you don't necessarily know if you will get a Wellington or Christchurch domicile until after you start, so it's not something that you can accept or decline at the job offer acceptance stage, you can only take an Auckland pilot basing and note your interest for a domicile with the pilot admin team. It's a bit different for an internal hire as they may have significantly more seniority than a new hire and so they have more chance of getting the Christchurch domicile they want. It's relatively easy to get a Wellington domicile, it's Christchurch that has a long queue.

Interesting. Yes I was told all externals will be A320 Akl as regionals with more seniority will want S/O or other Domiciles. It’s going to be very interesting as I as an external didn’t accept interview because of this.

I hope that wasn’t the only reason you turned down the interview as it’s not correct. You could easily have been offered a SO position. It would just depend on timing.

It would've been worthwhile having an interview at least and then seeing what you were offered. I got a domicile straight up as an external hire and was offered a B777 course initially but opted for an A320 course. It really depends on timing like the other poster said. This was all pre COVID.

Fortunately I have another job. Did think about NZ though and didn’t pull out, just said not now which they were happy with rather than go through process and say no.

Although I understand from insiders post Covid the bidding from regional will mostly be for s/o leaving a320 for lower seniorities.

Were you offered an interview recently?

I’ve always enjoyed reading your replies ElZilcho, and I understand where you’re coming from.

A couple of things, if Regional to jet this year is going to be about 75 pilots (and this is achievable) Jet training will be around the 80 mark (including externals), is it possible to train more than 80 onto the jet if required? That number seems like quite high and pretty reasonable if required over several years.

Also, I know of a handful of regional pilots who had been accepted into JQ and Jetconnect who have turned it down because they are going to wait for Jet, and there definitely aren’t the same numbers leaving regional as there were precovid so I guess RPPP is having its desired effect in the regional space, it’s also having a having a real effect on FOs moving to not so sort after bases so that they get their 1year command before being eligible for jet, this will be helping the company as there were multiple command vacancies unfilled pre RPPP. I know this is only helping regionally but it is a step forward. Also, there is definitely a more positive feel out on line, which is good for those who want to move to jet and those who want to stay.

And if you are joining externally, doesn’t there just need to be more visibility on what the 20/80 ratio means, because if there’s 1 external hired, you’re only starting behind 4 internals, plus you are on the aircraft and have bidding rights as opposed to the 4 who are seconded.

I agree with you though, and have been around long enough to know that RPPP won’t last in its current form

I will say that if you have any type of experience you’d probably not join the regionals now, and look elsewhere, and this will be another choke point for the company as the regional applicants will dry up

In 2013 and again in 2016 we had around 100 new hires, but those were our biggest years (that I know of) and we had more aircraft types to funnel new hires into. So 80 between the 3 current fleets must be close to capacity.

I’m not surprised the RPPP has reduced turnover, it’s a great Carrot. Previously it was mostly Captains and FO’s with ATPL’s who would leave to the Aussies but they’re likely far enough up the RSL that an 8 year stand down isn’t worth the risk, and Junior FO’s likely don’t have enough experience…. Yet.

Long term, I can see a situation arising where those in the middle who feel “stuck” will warn those below them to go early. Due to supply and Demand, the Aussie carriers will likely have to lower their requirements (or pay more) as the pool of Link Captain applications dries up with the RPPP. The RHS of a 737 or A320 earning six figures could look rather appealing to a 22 year old Q300 FO that’s #599 in line for Air NZ.

People leaving the Links used to create a Command Vacancy and shorten the queue to Air NZ, hence 4-6 years being the norm. If the RPPP succeeds in keeping Captains, career progression in the Links is going to be painfully slow. In the beginning it won’t be, should be lots of new Commands this year, hence why everyone’s happy. When it slows down however, or when we get to tag and release 2.0, that’s when I expect Junior FO’s will start voting with their feet. As you said, this will be the new choke point.

In terms of transparency for externals, they absolutely should know the seniority implications for them. But once there’s a build up of Tagged numbers, word gets out and they stop applying.

Source says that two external boards have happened but anyone’s guess if more will happen.

Interesting if they have wrapped up external recruitment for this year already before the job posting has even closed. Will the company update applicants or is the EOI just an ongoing open application?

I doubt they have wrapped up external recruitment for the year, however anymore externals will trigger appoint and second. With the mess that eventuated last time this was used, I would imagine the company would want to keep externals to a minimum.

As of 20th April, no externals have appeared on the course appointments list. This could simply be a case of working through notice periods etc before assigning start dates, but regardless, no externals have actually started yet thus the RPPP trigger has not been reached.

I’m unsure if we’re going to see a couple of 100% external courses on the Horizon or if they’ll be slotting them in amongst the internals over say the next 6 months. Either way, the number of externals interviewed isn’t a factor in the RPPP, only the number who actually start, and it’s not uncommon to lose a few to other Airlines along the way.

M**E B****N is gone now thankfully....

Current forecast places 9:1 ratio to be broken in Roster 1 2024 at about 13ish percent. From there it keeps climbing to close to 30% external using present parameters in the forecasts.

Appoint and Second in Appendix A will kick in once the rolling 12 month average goes beyond 9:1 - which is important to note as thats measured off the point at which externals start turning up.

Externals are slated to start from August this year, at a rate for 2023 of 9.9% (I.e. a sliver inside 9:1).
Theres no reason for the company to stop interviewing externals to jet, as they are forecasting around 140 jet pilots needed in 2024 and 2025 each (based on current parameters), of which 100 are claimed to be internal turboprop movements. So they need a pool of 40 externals per year minimum HOWEVER.

The turboprop recruitment pool has all but dried up. I've been told they're down to around 2 eligible applications per month, and the total eligible pool is about 100 with a further 130 partially eligible. Turbos need around 150 new FOs per year to just keep up with the forecasts, so I assume it's all going to collapse in a huge heap within the next 12 months.

Essentially what I'm getting at is that the company cannot afford 100 turbo pilots to move to jet next year - hell, the ATR fleet is barely upright as is with training stretch. Appoint and Second will kick in as the fireworks fade on new years morning 2024, because we simply cannot supply what the forecast is saying.

Oh and to top it all off all the above figures are based on the regional airline recruiting 156 each year, which we might achieve this year but are guaranteed not to next year. What I'm trying to say is the above plan is even worse than anyone thinks it is. The parameters are all stuffed and I'm not sure anyone knows how to recover it at this point. Bring on a repeat of the Tag and Release debacle from yesteryear!

The only realistic future for the jet fleet is large percentage (I.e. more than 20%) external recruitment. You cant supply a larger pool (1100 jet pilots) with the flow through from a smaller pilot pool (650 regional pilots).

Their last twice monthly board at 11 applicants so don't know where you pulled 2 from

Read the reply again. 2 applications a month, not attendees at board. You need a flow of applicants to put through a board in the futue. And one board of 11 isn't any sign of success. From recollection the one prior had 11 invited, 6 showed up, and 2 got the job.

I think the figure '2' came from a board a month or so ago where 12 applicants were invited to an assessment day, 6 accepted and 2 were taken. This is the exception though, not the rule. I heard on average half or so of the 12 get taken at each assessment day. 200ish applications for turboprop, 100ish meeting the requirements.

The number of Pilots applying each month, who meet the requirements, is less than the number being hired. Thus the pool is being drained faster than it’s being filled, it’s that simple.

As I’ve always said, Air NZ needs to control the flow of Link Pilots to Jet based on a sustainable number, not arbitrary percentages like 70:30 or now 90:10 otherwise history just keep repeating itself. The Links run out of Pilots and we end up with another “Link Ban” until they can recover.

If the Links can only release 50 per year (for example), then release 50 a year. Sometimes that’ll be 100% internal, other times it might be 50/50 but it keeps the wheels turning.

What are these extra 280 pilots going to fly? What's behind such an increase in manpower? It's not like there any extra jets to fly.

And in fact there are now two fewer jets available: https://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/trave...ngers-impacted

Something that I agree with you on is that there shouldn't necessarily hard and fast numbers because reality is far more dynamic.

Eventually we’re supposed to start receiving deliveries of more 787’s to replace the now retired 772’s. I say eventually because between us delaying them and Boeing failing to deliver I’ve mostly tuned out to when they’re actually supposed to show up. We’ve also got another 4 A321 NEO’s on the way from memory… assuming we can find some engines for them.

In anticipation of the eventual seat changes certain Ranks are being over crewed in advance, such as C20 to prepare for the eventual flow into C8. But as always, the choke points further down.

Anyone know if the externals have got a start date or when they’re likely to start? Also curious if the rumours of another interview panel this year is true?

No externals have started.
Recruitment boards are still running but unsure if any are slated for externals at the moment.

There is a looming demand to hire externally, just hasn't happened yet.

the next round of emails have gone out for external psych testing last week

Good to see it’s ongoing. Out of interest how many candidates usually make up a board/assessment?

I’ve also seen the company is looking for a manager to lead the new low (or zero) hours pilot recruitment programme. So it seems they have a solution to the lack of suitable prop applicants. An exciting development for aviation in NZ.

Who says it's for the props?

The author of the memorandum.

For now.

Doesn't help the left seat problem.

Exactly.
Great opportunity for Pilots to get in early, but they’ll be a long time in the RHS and as we’ve already seen, hiring FO’s with 800-1000 hours has already caused bottlenecks for Command upgrades thus preventing existing Captains from being released. This would only exacerbate things.

Let’s not forget, pre COVID JW wanted SO Cadets on slave wages so they could “build experience” before going to T-Prop FO.

The low hour pilot pathway will only ever supplement new hire recruitment, the main stream will always be GA. Probably better to get your C cat and the 500 hour minimum hour requirement to avoid 'graduate pilot pay'. In saying that it probably won't be very hard to recruit a few classes of very bright young wannabe pilots that wanna fly the koru.

Hi All :)
Trust you all are well!
I am a FO on the A330 and A320/1 and would appreciate if someone can shed some light to the following please;

1. Has Air NZ started recruitment/ interview process for Externals on Jet? If not, around when would that be?
2. How could someone prepare for the Air NZ interview?
3. What would be a FO Salary before Tax?
4. What would be a SO salary on the B787 before Tax?
5. How many hours per roster are you all rostered for. Here at base, I do about 80 hr rosters
6. What is the hourly rate paid at Air NZ?

Appreciate this much!
Thank you

The majority of these questions are already answered in this rather short thread, just have a wee scroll up and I’m sure you’ll find what you’re looking for :ok:

​​​

Yes they are interviewing.

1st year FO on 320 is $139500, after 1 years service (if you have an ATPL) it jumps to $156,000. From there it increases by about $5000 per year plus CPI inflation plus 0.8%. Tax free allowances are approx 20/30k pa.

1st year SO $124,400 then $139,000 after a year. Allowances 30/40k pa.

On top of the salary is incentive pay. This is variable between fleets and domiciles. But any hours over 60 per 28 day roster your salary is multiplied up to 100hrs.

At the moment on the 320 its about 15% (approx 70 hrs) times your salary and SO are 25% (approx 80hrs) times your salary. Very rough and variable but just an idea of how much you’ll earn.

They don't have an hourly rate. They have "incentive pay" which pays an additional percentage of your pay depending on how many hours over the min guarantee (59 for A320/1, 60 for the Boeings) you worked. Unfortunately it's a sliding scale that works out to be less per hour than what you were paid for the initial 59/60 hours. So say you are earning $156K flying the A320, your hourly rate would be $203 / hour (156000 / (13*59)) for the first 59 hours you work. Then incentive pay kicks in. Initially it's paid at 1.25% of the 4 weekly salary per hour and the percentage increases the more hours you do, this works out to be $150 / hour from 60 - 75 hours. As soon as you go into incentive pay you are getting paid less per additional hour than your ordinary pay. You only get back to earning the same per additional hour of work when you hit 100 hours and even then it's not quite the same. An A320 pilot flying 100 hours will achieve 167.5% of their base salary, meaning they've been paid $197 / hour for their "overtime", still less than their nominal hourly rate.

There are a lot of good things about the contract, but incentive pay isn't one of them. A needlessly complex system that would be far better by just paying the nominal hourly rate for each overtime hour worked (a whole chapter of the contract could be replaced by one line).

Imagine a labourer being asked to do some overtime for 75% of their normal hourly rate. They'd laugh at whichever clown proposed that, they'd laugh even harder when told it's "incentive".

Thanks alot... appreciate the feedback and info. :)