I agree that IP is needlessly complicated and it’s cheaper than hiring more pilots however, it’s not quite the rip off as you make out.

As you said, we don’t have an hourly flight rate, because we’re salaried. So you can’t simply create one by dividing the Salary into 60hr flying rosters because the Salary also covers ground time such as Turnarounds, SIM’s, Call etc

Using $156k as the example, Salaries are based on a 40hr working work which would equate to $75/hr but of course that’s a meaningless number outside of payroll because we don’t work a standard 40hr week.

While other Airlines use flight hour rates and MGP, we don’t. So it’s not a fair analogy.

I received an email from Air NZ stating due to the many applications, my application won’t be progressed at this stage.
They suggested to keep updating and they’ll be in touch.
I guess there is a yes/no letter. Is this a maybe?
I see the application window for the jet jobs has been extended until the end of the year.

Well all I know is that my previous (Australian) employer did exactly what I'm suggesting. Salary divided by guaranteed work hours is your hourly pay and any pay on top was at that hourly rate. A callout was at a minimum of 4 hours pay, much better than our Z days. The salary was a salary just like Air NZ. I don't see any difference from our salary and the hourly rate with guaranteed hours that other airlines have, that is a salary in all but name. Our incentive pay clause even talks about "MGP".

Your inbox is full so I can't reply to your PM.

opps... all good now!

For comparison here's the Qantas short haul equivalent of incentive pay:

This is the method I think Air NZ should be using. They've taken the annual salary, and yes it's a salary, divided it by the annual guarantee hours, and called that the hourly rate.

No doubt QF have the better contract, and I suppose it's the gold standard in that regard so something to aim for. You mentioned your previous employer, so if you left QF Mainline for Air NZ I can't blame you for feeling ripped off in that regard. Other Airlines, IP/Overtime doesn't kick in until ~75 hours, so while the rate might be higher you've got to work a lot harder to achieve it, especially when they only pay for block hours. Air NZ's IP is certainly a massive improvement over my last employer, although that was 10 years ago.
What does the QF LH Contract say? Having separate LH and SH contracts is certainly an advantage (from an outsiders POV anyway) as ours was definitely written for LH and adopted for SH, the A320 definitely gets the short end of the stick. I've had some massive Rosters on the Bus where I barely touch IP. Comparatively, I've have 90+ hr LH rosters that, due to strategic bidding, were quite manageable.

So I can certainly agree, for the A320, it needs addressing. For LH, I think it's fine.

It was Cobham / National Jet. 60 hours in 28 days was the threshold for overtime (except they still had a monthly roster so it was 65.1 hours per calendar month). I’m not saying that it was a better place to work, it wasn’t, there is a lot in the Air NZ contract that is good. Never done LH so can’t comment.

LH is a different world. 60hrs can be achieved in 2 trips, or 90hrs in 3 if you bid strategically, especially when we were going to LHR. 3 vs 4 Pilot trips has more effect on fatigue than roster hours.

My last job also had a higher hourly IP rate than Air NZ, similar calc to QF, but the higher threshold combined with a lower overall salary/MGP meant it was all smoke and mirrors.

I got exactly the same, wasn't quite sure what it actually means.

Is there any update on external hiring? Has the second lot gone through for interview yet?

Sounds like that is the No letter. Update them every 6 months or so and have another crack at it next time. Good luck - and don’t let it stop you trying again!

Curious, what's your experience?

Second interview panel 6-7 Jul. Has anyone got insider knowledge on when the next one will be?

From Air NZ:We anticipate hiring a small number of external pilots into the jet fleet later this year. Next year it is likely we will need to increase the number of new jet pilots recruited from external sources, as our ability to hire into the turboprop fleets (to backfill movements to the jet) becomes more challenged after two years of very strong recruitment. At some point in 2024 it is likely that we will need to exceed the 10% external hiring ratio and trigger the appoint and second mechanism provided for in the RPPP.

Interest in the turboprop first officer role remains strong, but the percentage of applicants who meet our minimum requirements is decreasing. For example, as a result of the nature of our GA industry, one of our biggest challenges is finding enough pilots with solid IFR experience and a current instrument rating.

3000 hours 320 FO, NZ licensed but not current

I imagine that with the currently incredibly small number of jet externals being recruited that the HR team can apply incredibly selective filters to whittle down the applicants. I’d reckon that even something like not having a current NZ licence would be enough to go in the maybe later basket for now.

Meanwhile in Australia….
Frustrating NZ industry is so small.

I doubt many external jet hires have a current NZ licence. The licence becomes current through the normal course of training anyway.

As the 20 year old, (19 finishing a CPL and MEIR), what's the best thing to do,try join the links asap and joining the 8 year queue or push your career elsewhere until ready to come back to the Jets as an external. Always wanted to do an OE of some sort in my 20's and go fly a jet somewhere else in the world and explore for a bit while I'm young, but the goal is to always come back to the Jets. Is the externals going to remain a viable pathway into Air NZ jet in the future or would I be better off to just start at the links and stay at Air NZ for my whole career.

Be very careful relying on the recruitment process remaining the same. The Company will (understandably, if misguidedly) always do what it thinks is best for itself.

The instant this current process becomes a hindrance, or new management come into play, the rules will be changed. That’s not a guess looking forward, that’s a statement from looking back.

Decisions made at your age often come without the burdens we have when older, and often turn out to be the best decisions we ever make. Take some risks and enjoy your life.

Purely from a career progression and financial POV, you want to get an Air NZ Seniority number at the first opportunity if that’s where you ultimately wish to end up.

Doing an OE and flying Jets around the world make for great life experiences and work stories, but count for absolutely zero in the grand scheme of things at a seniority based legacy carrier and can be the difference between retiring as an FO or getting a Widebody Command before you’re 50.

Unfortunately, none of us have a crystal ball and can tell you what the Landcsape will be when you decide to come home. You could get picked up 2 weeks after applying or sitting in a “please keep updating your application” file for another 5 years, or longer.
The current RPPP process is destined to fail, but it’s also more written in stone than any process we’ve had in the past given it has no out clause for the company other than tag and release.

However….

The flip side to going overseas, is you might decide to not come back. There’s a thread at the moment talking about Aussie Airlines being a “noose around your neck” and believe me, Air NZ is no different. When you’re mid 40’s, with a family and 10-15 years of Seniority it’s extremely difficult to pack up and leave if you become unhappy. The gloss of living in NZ has well been eroded in the past decade (or more) and our salaries have failed to keep up with inflation. Something that doesn’t necessarily become obvious until you’ve got a Mortgage, Family and hit the salary cap for your rank, watching your bid for promotion barely budge as more Pilots continue past 65 for the same reasons.

Just like life, this career is full of decisions and consequences. Looking back, I don’t think Air NZ was the right decision for me based on my age of joining, the direction NZ as a country is going and recent world events that I could have never predicted. In another 5-10 years however, it could all change.

100% Agree with EZilcho, this is one of the reasons why I didn't bother to go ahead and accept my offer with ANZ. The progression is seriously slow and NZ is just getting worse. I never understood flight instructors during my training seeing ANZ as the big golden ticket when there's better opportunities overseas, but if your wanting to raise a family here by all means necessary go for it. However I would never spend 6+ years on the turbo props at ANZ link.

Incredibly sage words from Elzilcho above.

It is incredibly difficult to plan your entire life out in advance, and this career is a real buggar with most airlines rewarding time spent in company along with being very quick to give people the boot or stop recruiting in downturns.

At your age, I had a very different idea of what I wanted out of life to what I do now. The same might be said for yourself, I’ve flown in Europe with a couple of lads who got a jet command at 26/27 and now face the prospect of little to no change or progression for the majority of their working life. They find it incredibly difficult to leave because to go elsewhere would be cutting their salary in half. Obviously in Air NZ there’s fleet variety, but as EZ said, NZ is not the be-all-end-all and you might gain some life satisfaction by giving it a crack overseas. If you have a passport that lets you work in the EU, there are some great contracts, fantastic places to live and plenty of opportunities for travel. It’s not utopia, and the work is tough sometimes, but it’s all about what you want from life.

My advice is always to try and hone in what you enjoy about flying and what you want from life. The links is arguably the most fun airline flying you can have, shooting visuals into uncontrolled ADs etc, but you exchange fun for a low salary and some really long days. If you’ve got roots in a region where there’s a base (Napier, Nelson, Chch etc) it might work perfectly for you. If travelling and seeing the world is at the forefront of your mind then perhaps a jet job in Europe would work better, decent pay, cheaper cost of living and the variety of Europe on your doorstep.

Its hard not to want to forward plan, as a species it’s what us pilots like doing. However, at 20 you can’t be thinking “well it’s 24 years to command at NZ jet so I better join the links by May 3rd 2034 or I’m screwed”. So much of this job (and getting the job you want) is about luck and timing. The industry changes year on year, the entry requirements change and the attrition rate at the top (what your whole career depends on) changes too.

Its a toughy mate, but the good news is the job is largely great no matter what you choose. Best of luck 👍🏼

Why don't youngish or not so youngish NZs work in Australia for a few years
get Australian Citizenship (keep NZ citizenship) , thus being eligible for the massive amount of jobs in USA via E3

Think , it was recently made easier for NZs in Australia to get citizenship (did they reduce the four year time period)

With basic licences you would need a bit of flight time to make yourself competitive for the NZ links , would think

Looks like still 4 years in Australia on Special Category Visa, made easier this year (possibly don't have to go through permanent resident stepping stone)

Do you guys actually realise how short so many of the Aussie TP/Jet operators are atm ?

Surely the out for the RPPP for the company is that it’s just a ‘policy’. Not attached to any collective agreement etc. They’ll just say it’s not working as intended, sorry. Rip it up.

Once upon a time, it was the golden ticket... for some, with A320 Commands in their early to mid 30's, it still is. The problem with NZ Aviation being so cyclical is we don't all get to have the same careers. 6 Years in the Links isn't so bad if you join at 20 with 500 hours as your first job, different story if you got stuck in GA during a downturn or joining from the RNZAF.

Anecdotally, I'd say there's more than a handful at Air NZ Link and even Jet looking across the ditch... wont take much to push them over, perhaps the next Election result will do it.
Not to say everything's Rosey in Australian Airlines either, but it's a much better place to live.

The honest answer is I don't know for certain. That was certainly my assumption, but recent cockpit gossip has suggested otherwise. Apparently because it's a signed agreement between the Company and ALPA, it requires mutual agreement to terminate. Questions are being asked how it got past legal and signed in the first place... perhaps a certain Exec acting with too much autonomy jumped the gun. Time will tell I suppose.

If anyone doesn't see a long term career with ANZ I'd say its best to work for another airline overseas. I know a few instructors who have been trying for years to get an interview with ANZ and they have had no luck.

Yes, for our 20 year old, I would suggest you take the first job that gets you on the ladder and that includes jobs in AU. At this stage of your career you cannot be fussy as the music will stop again.

Once you have a seat you will be amazed at the doors that begin to open including Air NZ whether you are in or external.

Will this leased 777 ramp up the manpower requirements for this year above what’s already forecast? Must be quite a few more external recruitment boards lined up with the numbers required.

We don't have enough manpower for the current 777 fleet, let alone when the lease arrives... something needs to ramp up somewhere, but no word on that being external recruitment in 2023.

Quick question regarding seniority and bidding based on what EZ said in the wages thread:

If you’re looking at 18 years in the company before F7, what are the timelines for C7, C8? Is it possible to move from C20 directly to C8? Or once your on short haul are you kind of stuck?

What’s the average pathway? I know it’s been said that plenty of people stick as SO until a window seat pops up, but is bidding for every rank/seat cumulative, i.e. just based on your overall position on the MSL?

Hypothetically, if you took a C20 spot after five years and joined the captains pay scale, if you jumped over to F8 after five years in the LHS would you rejoin the new FO scale at year one? Or year eight based on start date?

Pay Steps are based on Years of Service, so after 7 Years you'll hit the Yr8 Cap (SO/FO) regardless of how many times you swap fleet/ranks (2 year lock on applies when you change fleets, but not seats within a fleet).

Command Payscales work slightly differently. After 6 years you begin to accrue notional Command Pay... if you took a Command at 6 Years or less, you'd start on Year 1, but at 7 Years you'd start on year 2 etc, reaching the top Command step after 18 Years.
If you happen to be fortunate enough to get an early Command, then you would reach the Year 12 Cap a few years earlier, even if you bid back to FO on another fleet.

You can bid, and achieve, any position you have the Seniority for. Pre-COVID we had SO's bid and achieve C20. Needless to say, this made the Company nervous so they insisted on giving them some RHS experience first.... on Command Pay.

Timeline wise, S7, S8 and F20 are all entry level positions.
At the moment, both C20 and F8 sit around 9-10 Years. F7 ~18, C8, ~22 C7, ~30. The 777 however, isn't planned to stick around long (so they say), we had 15 pre-COVID now 7 (soon to be 8 with a lease). Doubt I'll ever see C7 let alone a new hire seeing F7. We also have ARP Captains (Age Restricted Pilots, being over 65) on the Widebodies flying the Tasman, with the possibility of extending it to FO's as well which is slowing things down. Needless to say, the vast majority of us aren't happy about this but ALPA said we're wrong and to shut up about it. So there's that to consider.

Good info thanks again mate. So you reckon if they biff the triple it will rocket the wait times for the 78?

Very interesting. I’d previously been told you couldn’t do international after 65 but I suppose Aussie isn’t considered under that umbrella.

If/when we become a 2 Fleet Airline (as is the stated goal) it will be interesting to see how the Seniority list re-arranges itself. As I mentioned, F8 pays more than a Junior C20 all things considered, then, when C20 starts pulling ahead, F7 comes up. Without F7 will we see C20 go higher? Hard to say, but that's what happened during the COVID re-shuffle. A lot of F7's saw F8 as a paycut so were "down-trained" to C20. Ultimately, the numbers will depend on how many Airframes we actually end up with, and if they stick to their 787 only LH fleet, or see value in the 777x/A350. ULR seems to be a big focus and I'm not convinced the 787 is the right Aircraft for it.

Both NZ and AUS have filed differences with ICAO.
On the 320 Fleet it's a non-issue really, as there's very few destinations they can't fly to. On the Widebodies however, it's basically a Tasman Command as most destination they Can't operate to. It's created a special branch within each fleet who fall well outside our roster balancing and bidding rules, but seems here to stay.

The vast majority need to vote the leadership out. Never seems to happen.

What would you have ALPA do? Do you remember the court case brought against Air NZ many moons ago by the Retreads that ensured the company couldn't discriminate against those over 65? ALPA is absolutely powerless to do anything about it legally. What could be done though is when negotiating the contract again is place clauses that ensure those over 65 retain their current rank and pay but must move to the domestic jet fleet. Company would get on board and the case for discrimination against them would be very weak as they arent taking pay cuts or demotions. It might even encourage guys/girls to just retire.

Never felt an A320 Command while collecting the pension was discrimination but unfortunately I’m not a QC and can’t sell that opinion to the union. Hire 100 lawyers and get 100 different interpretations of “reasonable accommodation”. The status quo was fine until certain individuals made some noise and were effectively given what they wanted unchallenged.

Speaks volumes when an OG Fed starts strutting around in an ALPA Lanyard after jumping ship (again) because of their ARP support.
One of guys who spearheaded the ARP (GM), when he was still an FO, was bitching and moaning at ALPA meetings about Pilots not retiring and delaying his career progression.

Paying them, effectively bypass pay, opens up a massive can of worms which I don’t think either parties want to touch. Right now, there’s a cap on the number of ARP positions on the WB fleets. If they were to get bypass pay on the A320 there would be no such cap and likely cost the company a lot more. There’s nearly 50 over 65 on the list at the moment, not all are flying, but there’s a lot on the Airbus who would get a massive pay rise overnight.

Whole things a farce, the trial was never a trial, it was to “determine numbers”. But as I said, it is what it is.

Hi All - Turbo captain sitting mid/low on the RPPP list. Has there been any further chat regarding if/when/how the RPPP will work with ~300 jet pilots required over the next few years.

will the RPPP hold up? - company+alpa seems to be holding off information, they’ve done the “forecasting” on whether it will work but aren’t sharing the knowledge

Without a proper Pathway there is 0 reason to stay in the turboprops and we’d just like a decent yes/no so we can plan the future and leave asap rather than waiting for it to blow up. Especially considering starting FO turboprop pay is 68k (only a few handfuls above the $30p/hr ground staff now get to chuck bags) - no wonder we have FO’s leaving to J* Aus for 130k AUD starting

any info / yarns / rumours would be appreciated

D3R

Company will never give you a “no” outside of a formal interview (as was the old system) because a “no” would mean you’re definitely going to leave. A dangling carrot such as a “maybe” or a “not now” is more likely to keep you around.

As you mentioned, we need 300 odd Jet Pilots. That’s what, half the RSL? How many FO’s are left who meet the Command requirements? We can hire as many 500hr Pilots as we like, doesn’t solve the eventual LHS shortage. And that’s always been the issue. The Company and ALPA are silent about it, likely because they’ve backed themselves into a corner, or (rumour time) because they’re working on an SO Cadetship as part of this 200hr Pilot Programme.

New hires start on minimum wage in the back of a 787, on the bottom of the GOP list then go off to Link after 2-3 years with 2000hrs of bunk time to pad out the logbook and Regional Captains move onto F20. Air NZ gets to keep their RPPP, slash their wage bill for SO’s and ALPA gets their GOP list. But that’s just a rumour… they could just have every Regional Captain on tag & release within 2 years then wonder why no externals are applying.

All I can say is, leave or stay, accept the consequences of that decision. I left the Links many years ago to fly Jets elsewhere because I refused to put my career on hold while they dangled the carrot, but there was no pathway then.
With the 8 year stand down now, and already having a Command, it’s highly likely you’re better off staying. Even if you don’t get a Jet start you’ll likely get a Seniority number in due course, and ultimately that’s what counts…. If you want to stay in NZ.

However, if I were a new hire into the Links? I’d probably do my bond then leave. And if that happens, the shortage of experienced FO’s for Commands will only get worse.

Honestly it’s all crystal ball stuff right now. They don’t tell us anymore than they’re telling you. Even recruiters don’t know what’s going to happen next year when the Links can’t keep up with demand.

Is this realistic? The list is gonna grow to 1400ish pilots?

Possibly same issues facing QF with a high rate of retirements until 2030. They need 1000.