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-   -   Project Winton- Airbus (https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/644222-project-winton-airbus.html)

itsnotthatbloodyhard 16th Dec 2021 21:42


Originally Posted by SHVC (Post 11156986)
That was not my point. My point is old, set in their way 73 drivers will find it hard to adjust. Not all 73 skips have flown an Airbus.

I think youíll find the QF 737 drivers are a relatively youthful bunch. A lot of the Ďold, set in their way 73 driversí moved on Ö. to the A330.

Jeez, every pilot at some point has never flown an Airbus. Are we perhaps making too much of a big deal about it?

das Uber Soldat 16th Dec 2021 21:53


Originally Posted by theheadmaster (Post 11156979)
You do realise Qantas mainline have been flying Airbus A330s since around 2002, and before that flew the ex-Australian Airlines A300? Boeing to Airbus and vice-versa is not a new thing at all for mainline.

Would this be the same 330s that Qantas had to retrofit the exterior light switches to work in reverse because Qantas pilots couldn't cope? :P

itsnotthatbloodyhard 16th Dec 2021 23:37


Originally Posted by das Uber Soldat (Post 11157027)
Would this be the same 330s that Qantas had to retrofit the exterior light switches to work in reverse because Qantas pilots couldn't cope? :P

No, that was done so the jets would be different to the sims, just to f#@k with us.

dr dre 16th Dec 2021 23:53


Originally Posted by SHVC (Post 11156986)
That was not my point. My point is old, set in their way 73 drivers will find it hard to adjust. Not all 73 skips have flown an Airbus.

Like I posted earlier thereís still going to be half of the 738 fleet flying for another 10-12 years. This replacement project goes to 2034. So plenty of opportunity for those to who want to stay on the aircraft to remain there. And with the numbers from the current fleet whoíll move the long haul thereíll probably be training onto the 73 until the end of the decade at least.

Hereís a prediction, as the latest 738s are younger than the youngest 330s the 737 will be around longer than the 330, which will probably be gone by decadeís end.

BuzzBox 16th Dec 2021 23:57


Originally Posted by SHVC (Post 11156975)
it will be interesting seeing how the 10+ yr 73 skippers adjust to Airbus philosophy.

This former Boeing captain converted to Airbus after almost 20 years on various Boeing types. The mindset is somewhat different, but it's certainly not hard to adjust. It's just another bloody aeroplane!

morno 17th Dec 2021 00:20


Originally Posted by SHVC (Post 11156986)
That was not my point. My point is old, set in their way 73 drivers will find it hard to adjust. Not all 73 skips have flown an Airbus.

Iíve flown with captains who have come from Boeing to Airbus, most havenít had a problem because they are experienced enough to understand that things will be different and that itís important to ensure you know your aircraft well. There are however a few who insisted on still flying it as closely as possible to a Boeing, and funnily enough they always had difficulty.

Is it true that Qantas doesnít read the FMA out loud? Thatís very against Airbus philosophy.

StudentInDebt 17th Dec 2021 00:23


Originally Posted by BuzzBox (Post 11157077)
This former Boeing captain converted to Airbus after almost 20 years on various Boeing types. The mindset is somewhat different, but it's certainly not hard to adjust. It's just another bloody aeroplane!

^^ This ^^


cynphil 17th Dec 2021 00:42

Is it true that Qantas doesn’t read the FMA out loud? That’s very against Airbus philosophy.[/QUOTE] Morno

Morno….I don’t know where you get your information or you just make SH…t up

Qantas has always read out the FMA on their Airbus fleets….

itsnotthatbloodyhard 17th Dec 2021 00:43


Originally Posted by morno (Post 11157082)

Is it true that Qantas doesnít read the FMA out loud? Thatís very against Airbus philosophy.

No, it isnít true. Where do you get this sh1t from??

Capt Fathom 17th Dec 2021 00:43


Originally Posted by morno (Post 11157082)
Is it true that Qantas doesnít read the FMA out loud?

They announce FMA changes softly so as to not disturb the passengers!

morno 17th Dec 2021 01:07

Sheesh, no need to get cranky over it. Simply an honest question.

cynphil 17th Dec 2021 01:15

It’s not an honest question when you start it with “ Is it true “………

rexxxxxy 17th Dec 2021 01:31

The C-Series/A220 is great for the customer. Big windows, quiet, and the widest middle seat in the sky - even a window in the lavs.

Going to be a good move to have that one in the fleet.

Rantallion 17th Dec 2021 01:32

How about we return to the topic of this thread…..

Project ‘Winton’ QF Domestic B737 replacement

lets discuss;

Will the current establishment of QF Shorthaul crews fly them?

QF SHEBA, what changes will be sought?

There’s a lot of hulls potentially to be ordered, what’s it going to take to keep the majority of them in mainline? Or has AJ diluted the group so far and wide that it’s going to be dog eat dog and a whole new low in terms and conditions?

Your thoughts everyone?




dr dre 17th Dec 2021 06:06


Originally Posted by Rantallion (Post 11157105)
How about we return to the topic of this threadÖ..

Project ĎWintoní QF Domestic B737 replacement

lets discuss;

Will the current establishment of QF Shorthaul crews fly them?

QF SHEBA, what changes will be sought?

Thereís a lot of hulls potentially to be ordered, whatís it going to take to keep the majority of them in mainline? Or has AJ diluted the group so far and wide that itís going to be dog eat dog and a whole new low in terms and conditions?

Your thoughts everyone?

Everyone seems to jump immediately to the negative.

Thereís no real indication why the 321XLR wouldnít be flown by the pilots currently flying the aircraft theyíre replacing. The routes currently flown by some 738s but also some 330s regionally.

Yes naturally it would fall to a SH arrangement, even if some say the replacement of the 330s means it should be flown under LH conditions.

Will efficiencies be sought to the SH in the next negotiations to confirm this? Probably, as what were wanted with the LH EBAs before the 787 and A350 were ordered.

Any subsequent contract probably wouldnít be too bad, lots of worrying about the 787 and 350 conditions but in reality they both turned out to be pretty good deals.

No one seems to think the A220 will be flown by anyone but the outfit that currently flies the type theyíre replacing - the 717.

hotnhigh 17th Dec 2021 06:29

Alan hasnít actually ordered anything yet. So his record remainsÖ..

C441 17th Dec 2021 06:45


It’s a true multi crew aircraft. it will be interesting seeing how the 10+ yr 73 skippers adjust to Airbus philosophy. Or QF will try and Boeingise it and change everything to re-invent the wheel.

That was not my point. My point is old, set in their way 73 drivers will find it hard to adjust. Not all 73 skips have flown an Airbus.
After 27 years on Qantas Boeings, I took the plunge and went to the 'Bus. It's probably the most difficult transition I've had but the training was excellent and followed the Airbus operational procedures exclusively. It's a training course designed for people who've flown any number and variety of previous types. The "10+ yr 73 skippers" will have no problems adjusting and those that are towards the end of their career will just stay there until the last 73 leaves if they cant be bothered with a 'Bus course.

Keg 17th Dec 2021 07:38


Originally Posted by morno (Post 11157082)
Is it true that Qantas doesnít read the FMA out loud? Thatís very against Airbus philosophy.

Iím wondering where it was that someone would have suggested this to you in the first place?!?!?

Apart from the Taxi/landing light switches being backward QF Airbus ops are otherwise all but identical to Airbus SOPs.

krismiler 17th Dec 2021 08:53

The introduction of EFIS back in the late 1980s was a problem for older pilots who were used to stream driven gauges. Together with fly by wire, it proved too much for a few who couldn't hack the transition.

These days, everyone is used to glass cockpits so it's basically ECAM handling and the flight control systems together with the Airbus philosophy that needs to be learnt. The bus has lots of built in protections if you get things wrong and I would say that going from Airbus to Boeing and losing much of the safety net would be quite challenging as well.

BuzzBox 17th Dec 2021 09:23


Originally Posted by krismiler (Post 11157196)
The bus has lots of built in protections if you get things wrong and I would say that going from Airbus to Boeing and losing much of the safety net would be quite challenging as well.

I've seen a few 'interesting' go-arounds in the simulator when Airbus pilots converting to Boeing have forgotten to press the TOGA switches. It gets even more interesting when they also forget to trim!



Alt Flieger 17th Dec 2021 11:14


Originally Posted by BuzzBox (Post 11157216)
I've seen a few 'interesting' go-arounds in the simulator when Airbus pilots converting to Boeing have forgotten to press the TOGA switches. It gets even more interesting when they also forget to trim!

Agree.
One Airbus F/o doing his initial Command on the B737-800 commented to me in the sim. that he couldn’t believe how much hard work the B737 was engine out compared to the A330. Made very rude comparisons to the product of Soviet truck factories !
QF training department has many years experience of converting Boeing drivers to Airbus , including crusty old ones. Won’t be an issue.

Potsie Weber 17th Dec 2021 11:22


Originally Posted by Alt Flieger (Post 11157276)
Agree.
One Airbus F/o doing his initial Command on the B737-800 commented to me in the sim. that he couldn’t believe how much hard work the B737 was engine out compared to the A330. Made very rude comparisons to the product of Soviet truck factories !
QF training department has many years experience of converting Boeing drivers to Airbus , including crusty old ones. Won’t be an issue.

Yep. press toga = autopilot disconnect. Great logic that one!

I came off Airbus to do command training in 737-300 and 400 simulators. Bloody hard work, circling approach in the 300 sim with woeful graphics and drifting map.

Scooter Rassmussin 17th Dec 2021 12:34

This has to be some pipe dream , COVID isnít finished yet , the Hospitals will fill in early New Year and the borders will close , how will any Airline survive that .

turbantime 17th Dec 2021 12:53


Originally Posted by Scooter Rassmussin (Post 11157318)
This has to be some pipe dream , COVID isnít finished yet , the Hospitals will fill in early New Year and the borders will close , how will any Airline survive that .

You lockdown tragics make me laugh. NSW health Facebook page is full of people like you hankering for more restrictions and lockdowns. Just stay at home if youíre so worried while the rest of us get on with life.

Icarus2001 17th Dec 2021 13:10

Exactly, if you feel unsafe, stay home, wear a hazmat suit and mask and keep out of the way of the rest of us.

cLeArIcE 17th Dec 2021 15:12


Originally Posted by Scooter Rassmussin (Post 11157318)
This has to be some pipe dream , COVID isnít finished yet , the Hospitals will fill in early New Year and the borders will close , how will any Airline survive that .

Haha, I've always wondered if it's easy to be this stupid or , is it something you have to work at regularly?

Buckshot 17th Dec 2021 19:55

It will be an easier transition for the LH bus drivers bidding back to SH at 65

bangbounceboeing 17th Dec 2021 20:29

With shiny new Airbuses for Qantas and NJS what will become of the Alliance E190 wet lease operation?
I understand the agreement was for a 3 year period. Perhaps used as a stop gag between retiring aircraft and new arrivals/ training etc 🤷

Icarus2001 17th Dec 2021 22:25


With shiny new Airbuses for Qantas and NJS what will become of the Alliance E190 wet lease operation?
Having the option to deploy 100 seat aircraft with business class and IFE on pairings that do not warrant 180 seats is why they have the E190. The smaller aircraft can also supply frequency.
When will they get their first A220? Given that the order HAS NOT been placed yet and is not EXPECTED until late 2022, the A220 will not arrive until 2025 if ever.

neville_nobody 17th Dec 2021 23:40


With shiny new Airbuses for Qantas and NJS what will become of the Alliance E190 wet lease operation?
Just another player in the Network vs National Jet vs Mainline vs Alliance vs Qlink race to the bottom.

Going Boeing 18th Dec 2021 00:07

The industrial issues surrounding this are significant but, I donít think that they are insurmountable. Joyce is always out to extract every saving he can at the expense of the staff but, I believe that an agreement will be reached with mainline flying the A320ís & A321ís. Itís probable that Cobham will fly the A220ís when they arrive as replacements for the very tired (in the cabins, at least) B717ís. I think Network will virtually do all the West Australian domestic flying using Jetstar A320 cast offs.

Ever since the B767 was retired early, Qantas has missed having an aircraft to fill the capacity gap between the B737-800 & the A330-200 on domestic routes so, as the first 15 B738ís (ordered immediately after Ansettís collapse) come up for replacement, itís not surprising that they are planned to be replaced by the larger capacity A321XLR (or even some of the A321LRís that were ordered for the Group some time ago). When they have sufficient numbers of this capacity, the subsequent B738ís should be replaced (as they reach the end of their service life) by A320 NEOís.

This fleet will allow distinct product differentiation from their domestic competitors (even Jetstar has better seat comfort than the others) and I expect that will feature in the QF advertising when the B738 fleet numbers drop significantly. The PW GTF engines will deliver significant fuel savings from the current fleet and Joyce will proudly claim his green credentials (environmental, as well as Irish).

The sad point is that, in about 15 years time, the only Boeing aircraft operated by Qantas will be the B787 fleet.

PoppaJo 18th Dec 2021 09:43

A320s for Network, Jetstar and Qantas. All within the same group, all aircraft originally sourced from the same order, yet all three crews on very different wages. Looking at Mainline and Jetstar. Two A321s leave Melbourne for Sydney. Two long serving captains. One earns $100k more.

A lot of work needs to be done in that space. Budget Airline does not mean budget wages. Mining Crews earning less than AirAsia. They will continue to exploit for as long as we let them, very important especially those at VA not to take anymore haircuts, donít be apart of the race to the bottom.

Angle of Attack 18th Dec 2021 10:46

100k more? What’s that based on? Min guarantee? max hours? That’s a very general statement that is basically false. I think at the moment Jetstar Captains are on mid 200’s ? (Correct me if wrong) QF Shorthaul Captains are on about 230 on min hours but potentially could make high 300’s at max hours but that’s only a few hard arses. I’d say the vast majority are on mid to high 200’s in QF. The Shorthaul award is so vastly flexible compared to most other awards that there is no real set wage, you earn more if you work more.

neville_nobody 18th Dec 2021 11:32


A lot of work needs to be done in that space. Budget Airline does not mean budget wages. Mining Crews earning less than AirAsia. They will continue to exploit for as long as we let them, very important especially those at VA not to take anymore haircuts, don’t be apart of the race to the bottom.
And you propose to do this how? If you want to play hard ball then they will give a bunch of aircraft to a cheaper subsidiary. Even if there was a real pilot shortage they are just going to open the immigration floodgates and every African, South American and anybody else with a ATPL will fall over themselves to work here.

Your argument here is what management's argument is. We have the same aircraft flown safely by two different crews on vastly different salaries so how can we justify paying so much??

Buttscratcher 18th Dec 2021 11:38

Ok, I'll call bullshit.
I dont believe the J* line captains are working hard enough at the moment to get mid 200s

PoppaJo 18th Dec 2021 11:52


Originally Posted by neville_nobody (Post 11157746)
And you propose to do this how? If you want to play hard ball then they will give a bunch of aircraft to a cheaper subsidiary. Even if there was a real pilot shortage they are just going to open the immigration floodgates and every African, South American and anybody else with a ATPL will fall over themselves to work here.

Your argument here is what management's argument is. We have the same aircraft flown safely by two different crews on vastly different salaries so how can we justify paying so much??

My frustration lies in the fact that the previous proposed EBA before any pandemic came along, went backwards. Meanwhile the other guys go forwards. Even Cobham had a decent win. How can budget airline pilots work more for the same. One Euro operator tried that one, we will remove the pay freezes, lets increase min hours and hold the pay instead. Perhaps itís the union. I donít know, I keep getting told itís progressing well and something good is coming, when the reality is something flat or backwards.

However your point is correct. Perhaps future generations will have better luck. This isnít the decade to play hard ball sadly. You donít need to go to South Africa just yet, plenty in our own backyard at the moment.

Rabbitwear 18th Dec 2021 21:19

JQ Captain pay base salary $200,000. Based on 75hours.
captain base on flexiline, for 56 hours so equivalent to QF full time $149,900, close to half of QF mainline for the same hours worked.

Australopithecus 18th Dec 2021 23:41


Originally Posted by Rabbitwear (Post 11157954)
JQ Captain pay base salary $200,000. Based on 75hours.
captain base on flexiline, for 56 hours so equivalent to QF full time $149,900, close to half of QF mainline for the same hours worked.

Not half, but getting close to $70k less.

Buttscratcher 19th Dec 2021 01:06

.....what's 'flexline'?

shortshortz 19th Dec 2021 11:31


Originally Posted by Angle of Attack (Post 11157733)
100k more? What’s that based on? Min guarantee? max hours? That’s a very general statement that is basically false. I think at the moment Jetstar Captains are on mid 200’s ? (Correct me if wrong) QF Shorthaul Captains are on about 230 on min hours but potentially could make high 300’s at max hours but that’s only a few hard arses. I’d say the vast majority are on mid to high 200’s in QF. The Shorthaul award is so vastly flexible compared to most other awards that there is no real set wage, you earn more if you work more.

Do you just make up figures as you go?
QF line captain on "min hours" is on 53hrs pm vs JQ on 75hrs at a base less than QF. The "hard arses", as you put it, can then make an additional 47hrs OT to bring them up to 100 hrs pm at an overtime rate in excess of $80 ph more than JQ, even though JQ only have the ability to squeeze in 25 hrs OT to reach 100hrs pm. These "hard arses" who work similar hours to every JQ pilot (pre covid) then make in excess of $400k. The "vast majority" are on over $300k, and if you argue they're not, then they must be on not much more than 53hrs pm, which puts them similar to a JQ flexi-line pilot (part time) on $150k. No matter which way you slice it, QF sit on $100k more, for working less weekends, holidays, early shifts, with more support, significantly higher bonuses (4 fold), 3% pa currently, 13 rosters pa (again an ability to bank OT), easier EBA sign offs, ability to move to LH award, an open-time system, heck even 50 less pax per a/c. Basically false? Your whole statement is false.


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