Shortshortz, what's an "open-time system"?

Jetstar speak for 75% part time. The resultant OT threshold for block hours is 56hrs.

Ah, right, thanks mate.
Well, I guess it's still a sad fact of life that folks get paid different wages for flying the same machinery.
The situation is unlikely to change with new EBAs, as the Q juggernaut negotiators are ruthless.

As SLF, I much prefer Le Bus, to the Boeing. Nice to see them go this way.

Ones a full service airline, with narrow selection criteria, long lead times to command and promotion.

The other is a low cost airline, short lead times to command and promotion and a wider selection criteria.

So six years at JQ to command wages (precovid) of a 200k+ job, or 15 years sub 200k at mainline as a narrow body FO or SO, then maybe 5 years as a wide body FO, before choosing a bigger wide body or a narrow body command.

At the end of a 35 year career, you may find that the JQ pilot will be ahead in total earnings. I don’t have time to work out it. But it won’t be far off.

6yr command was what it was about 2yrs ago. It’s funny flying with cadets who roll their eyes in sigh saying it took them 6 long yrs to get a command, most of them don’t have a clue! JQ commands will blow well out to 10yrs+ for a new joiner- we have a young CPT group not to many at retirement age and the ones that are, are keen to keep going.

As for the money- One is an airline the other is a LCC it is what it is. If you want to earn Airline money go work for one. For me, I like JQ the flying is great, variety is good.

LLC vs an 'airline'?? WTF are you trying to say, man?
If you're talking full service, full price 'airline', then what of Network and Cobham? Folks booking a QF ticket on the system from Per to BME will still pay top Qantas dollar.
no LLC there.

Regional airlines.

LCC v Legacy, fact of the matter is you can always expect LCC to be paid less than a Legacy carrier.

Hmmm.
 

Not necessarily…. It’s not like that for Southwest Airlines in the USA is it?…. I heard they’re the highest-paid 737 pilots in the world.🤔

Interestingly management don't have the same expectation.

Well become a manager then

Low cost equals quicker time to command but less money when you get it. Legacy airline equals longer time to command but more money when you switch seats.

The main factor is age at joining, if you're early 20s then being in QF would put you ahead. Late 30s and JQ would be more lucrative.

I really don’t think that fast commands are still a thing at JQ. As previously mentioned, the fleet size is approaching its natural limit, the existing captain cohort is younger than airline average. QF had a lost decade without hiring or promotions. The demographics there are much in favour of the new joiner because the airline appears to be expanding and the retirements will soon accelerate. I imagine a new hire at QF could get a SH command* in ten years, or a right seat on a senior LH type which may be as lucrative anyway.

*Assumes industrial status quo. Assumes QF group revenue recovery sometime soon. Also assumes wet markets don’t cough up another pathogen anytime soon. All big, unsafe assumptions.

Not even close.....

At the moment 19-22 years depending on base. It may come down in the future, but 10 years?

Tell him he’s dreaming.....

Its 19-22 years right now because of the demographics. You write some of the only posts worth reading in this site so you are plenty smart enough to know that nothing lasts forever. There is a ten year unoccupied gap on the career progression ladder. The last person above that gap will indeed be circa 20 years. The next person not so much.

At the moment, yes it’s a long time to command. Yes, there will be demographic changes. And some who were at the start of the 2016-2020 recruiting wave will have a shorter time to career goals than most. They may even come close to getting a command within 10 years. But I don’t think it will become a regular thing for all entrants into the company. Upswings are usually followed by downswings.

Overall in a Legacy carrier with most LH cruise relief pilots employed as Second officers you could expect what 20% of your career SO, 40% as FO 40% as Captain? If you have a 40 year career that’s still at least 20 years in standard times before getting a command.

Quick commands can come around when there’s great expansion, like almost doubling the fleet in two years when the 747-300 and 767 were introduced in the mid 80s, plenty of commands achieved in record time for those at the start of that wave. But that now would mean looking at an additional net 120 aircraft coming in a short amount of time.

But hey, at least we’re talking expansion, recruitment and potentially quicker commands rather than redundancies and stand downs!

I got a good chuckle out of this nonsense. Tell me, are they still telling new recruits on day 1 at mainline that they're 'the best of the best'?

I've been offered a job by both entities and I've got some bad news for you kid, there ain't nothing special about the 'width of the selection criteria' at Qantas. You lot are just as dumb as the rest of us.

How long have you been in aviation? If you were flying in the last century you'd know farming out or otherwise changing the deal is precisely what "they" will try to do at every opportunity and a new fleet is as good an opportunity as it gets. Look up something called Project Sunrise which is a working title for an attempt at changing conditions. "They" rely on the good and unsuspecting nature of the masses not to see the pineapple on its way.

When looking into demographics, those arriving for an interview in around 10 years will spend probably no more than 5 years waiting for a command at the Star. Would be much longer still at Mainline however it wouldn’t be 20 years. Whilst the age in the left seat at the Star skews much younger, they are more likely to pack up for another job later on vs the other 2. Cadets with 4 bars now, won’t be able to sit still for the next 20-30 years at a loco. I recall the youngest VA Captain was mid 40s so mid next decade the entire QF and VA 737 ranks are retired.


So those getting the first GA job in the next couple of years shouldn’t have too many issues on the job front when the time for big stuff arrives in a decade.

The days of long waits for commands will be a thing of the past once the tail end of Gen Y, and then Gen Z start to take the industry off our hands. Purely as there will be very little pilots left, and a whole heap of retirements. However, those two generations don’t want to be Pilots by the looks of things, many more attractive industries now available to them.

I wonder how many pilots would go overseas for a better job in the future. There are no better jobs anymore. Cathay is toast, the middle east carriers no longer worthy and China? Pfft.

Over 20 years mate. And you know what, Qantas pilots still fly every fleet that has been introduced into mainline since then (737-800, A330, A380, 787, A350 [pending it’s likely arrival])

I don’t see the likelihood of the A321’s at least, with a “Link” on the side of them. The A220’s probably will, but they’re a 717 replacement, so not exactly a replacement for any mainline aircraft.

Of course management is going to try and get some concessions out of you, they wouldn’t be doing their job if they didn’t try. But given it’s a very similar aircraft type, with perhaps the exception of some additional longer range flying (hey, wouldn’t you believe it, maybe that’s why they’re wanting to discuss it!! :ugh:), I doubt they’re going to want many if any concessions. Who knows, maybe they might even offer you more!

At the moment, no. In the future, I believe so.

2030s and beyond it’s pretty clear there will be a lack of bodies across the board and to get those, cash and bonuses galore will need to be offered. I don’t think much will change here, the regionals and Jetstar might suffer a bit.

I think Gen Y/Z think differently. I’ve fly with many and I’ve asked the question. They don’t seem to want to hang around in some low cost like I’ve done for the last 20 years. Those big new toys with folding wings will lure many if cash and benefits are being thrown around.

Yeah, if cash and bennies are back to what they were in 2005, adjusted for inflation. Leopards don’t change spots too often, and the ME3 have amptly proven that you don’t go there for a career. I think the big money days for western captains in China are largely over too, although there might be a couple more years to be had.

Covid has taught that the expat life can come to an abrupt halt for the most arbitrary, flimsy reasons.

All of which might be a good thing:pilots may eventually force higher wages rather than join the diaspora.

As humans we have short memories. When China opens up and offering $$$$ pilots will trip over themself getting there. This pandemic has a few yrs to run yet.

It also depends on what stage of life your in. A few year's ago I'd agree with your sentiments about not wanting to stay at a LCC.I dont Work for QF, I'd prefer to work there but I don't know now. Ive also lived overseas, it's not that great. Aus is my home, I like my house in a rural area surrounded with trees and greenery. My Mrs likes it. I want my kid's to have this to. But, flying narrow bodies domestically in Aus is boring as batsh*t 99% of the time. Since I started this career, I've always wanted to fly wide bodies to all corners of the globe but, once I turned 30+ i realised that, 1: I'll probably never be Happy with what I have career wise. 2: That flying wide bodies overseas will also quickly becomes boring as batsh*t too. So I try to be content with what I have. I remind myself that flying is Just a job, it's not my life nor does it define my status or who i am. Giving up a life here for some **** hole in the middle east / Asia for a big shiny Jet would be (for me) incredibly foolish.

Speaking from experience, becoming an expat is an ugly thing to do to yourself. Even emigrating to arguably the best country in the world is a choice that exacts a toll. A house in your native country is about as good as life gets, but many people only realise that after it is too late.

I have met plenty of pilots who hailed from real **** holes who still were wistfully nostalgic for the old country. Imagine how home sick you'd be leaving a joint like this to live in an actual **** hole.

It all depends where you go. I’ve got many friends in Singapore and USA who seem very happy. They do plan on returning during retirement pending what the accountant says. It’s not all bad however it’s not all good either. Some of these people have become very financially comfortable, and can retire back home on much more vs what they would have had should they never have left. I don’t know many in the ME who are happy or financially that great sadly.

With a lack of overall bodies in the long run, it might be possible for the GA lad or girl of today, to do a stint abroad with a big twin, and be able to return home and take a narrow body job off the bat. Unless you ‘know people’, returning home in recent times and picking something in the left seat, let alone the right seat, was very rare. Start ups was the real only way of getting a job back here, and you need to know people. Tiger originally crewed expats from Hong Kong and it appears Bonza will do the same looking at where it’s Management are from. Once you go, you don’t come back was generally the rule.

I imagine that the USA is about the only possibility for GA or even junior LCC crew to improve their incomes. The E3 visa program is a gift to Aussies, and it seems that the US will need thousands of pilots for the foreseeable future, with potential for a permanent residency and a legacy carrier job. Others may have the right to work in Europe or the UK, but I think the pay & conditions there are pretty poor.

I don’t know how many LCC F/Os here would emigrate to join the bottom of an E jet list despite the rather more interesting follow on opportunities. As the saying goes: “It's hard to make predictions, especially about the future”.

The person who started this thread probably has some good insights.

I wouldn’t want to speak for the new AIPA president - but it could very well be that the comment was taken out of context, and ‘we would like to represent them too’ might actually mean that AIPA want to start covering members who work for NJS, such as at JQ and QLink. I’m not sure about others here, but the author of that Australian article tends to get key things wrong about the issues she writes about, especially when it comes to Pilot industrial agreement or their organisations.

For what it’s worth, there’s a snow flakes chance in hell of QF allowing NJS crew to be employed under the SH EA. The idea is to divide and conquer - not bring all of the pilot groups together.

Baldrick, I have a cunning plan.

I have to agree

Although an integration into one list like the Qantas and Australian pilots in 1994 would be the ideal that time seems to be a one off. The trend ever since has definitely been to to expand to as many entities as possible.

It just sounds to me like nothing more than a polite way of saying 'we see this as a good opportunity to extend our current member base'.
Thats understandable, but I can't see what material incentive there would be for NJS crews to switch from thier existing unions, any representation would surely always be of a 'mainline first' persuasion.

God damn you!! I just spat coffee all over my laptop LMFAO that is some funny 5hit

Project winton hey! Will it be shelved now for a while as the COVID recession is on its way.

NJS crews would get the benefit of being integrated into the mainline seniority list and the increased career opportunities if it went down like the Q and A pilots in 1994. They'd be a part of mainline

I doubt it. It's a 12 year project, there's no Covid related recession on the way (travel post Covid is booming). The conflict situation may have a temporary effect but it seems to be nearing a stalemate which will mean the conflict's length is measured in weeks not months or years. The oil price has spiked but a lot of that is due to the post pandemic boom not the war. Oil price is still below 2010-2014 levels.

I'd say travel to Eastern Europe may be down over the next few months but the rest of the world will be doing fine.

Qantas would never allow it. The whole point is to keep the group split. That way if anyone gets any cheeky ideas come EBA time all the company has to do is slip the "XYZ are happy to do it for this, so if you're not going to negotiate we'll just give it to them"
integration robs them of that card. Think of it as QFs version of mutually assured destruction 🤔

It is THIS^^^^^

I don’t believe that there is a “snowballs chance in hell” of seeing any joining of seniority lists of QF Group anytime soon.

Maybe, and it’s a slim Maybe, after the “Project Sunrise” and “Project Winton” aircraft and pay scales are bedded in, at a pay rate closer to Jetstar than QF, and the post Covid “Project Recovery” targets have been met, it may be beneficial to bring everyone onto the same list.

But why do that?

Having all these separate entities is the greatest industrial wedge they have had ever.

Without any “Scope” clauses, they just send the flying to the cheapest and most desperate entity and watch the desperation hit those that missed out.

Sure, it costs them a bit in training as pilots move around the group airlines, but that is a small (tax deductible) price to pay for longer term lower wages.

10 Minutes to Go
 

Voting for the A220 NJS & A321XLR for Mainline closes in 10 minutes. May the pineapples end here.