Originally Posted by Lookleft
(Post 11087874)
And will stick to the issue. I know things are tough for Qantas pilots but the level of personal vitriol directed to one person has gone up a couple of levels.
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Great to see the Captains get the Settlement that was acceptable to them. And good to see a federal court judge critical of the industrial and legal approach taken by Qantas and rule accordingly.
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Its not the big table at Fattie's anymore. You throw out some nasty little hand grenades then expect everyone to move on? "I have spoken and there the matter ends!" It doesn't work that way in the real world.
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Lookleft, re “I have spoken and there the matter ends”, I’ll thank you for not putting words in my mouth and misrepresenting me. Moving on was merely a suggestion. Your welcome to dwell there.
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Originally Posted by JBE
(Post 11087975)
Thanks theheadmaster and engine out. I think most people would understand the difference between settling a dispute and a ruling made by a judge, without needing a lesson on when Qf have been found to have broken the law versus when Qf have settled.
Both of you are doing nothing more than obfuscating my 3 points, which were that:
At least we can all agree Qf is not infallible. Pilots legal rights should be supported rather than undermined. Let’s move on shall we gentlemen? Qantas may have lost the recent case with the TWU, however whether Qantas have 'broken the law' or not has not been finalised. There will be an appeal and at the end of that process the outcome will be known. However, the 'battle' and whether Qantas 'have broken the law' is not the real issue. The 'war' is about what happens to the workers. They have not been reinstated on their old conditions, and probably never will be. The 'war' is about what Qantas have done to the TWU, the FAAA, the ALAEA (and perhaps the AFAP with regards to Jetstar). AIPA needs to make sure they don't contribute to its members meeting the same fate. The statement about AIPA CoM members infiltrating forums to push the company agenda is absurd. People like Keg are not pushing the company agenda to outsource and reduce conditions, they are actively working to prevent it. Taking the same path as the other unions will likely lead to similar outcomes. Not sure if you were in the industry in 1989, but I see similar grass roots attitudes now that were arounds then. The AIPA leadership were wise enough to avoid that mess. I don't have the same faith in the current AIPA leadership. In fact we have substantially the same Executive members that led long haul pilots to the industrial situation of 2011. The same people had a view that the current short haul and long haul Agreements should have been voted down. Look and see what having an open agreement at the moment means for your Jetstar and Virgin mates. The argument isn't about standing up for pilots or not, it is about how to do it without shooting yourself in the foot. |
Originally Posted by Lookleft
(Post 11088027)
Its not the big table at Fattie's anymore. You throw out some nasty little hand grenades then expect everyone to move on? "I have spoken and there the matter ends!" It doesn't work that way in the real world.
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Originally Posted by FightDeck
(Post 11087828)
Facts are that Qantas are either settling cases like Andrew Hewitts’ as Qantas didn’t have a strong case or they are losing as is the case with the TWU in the Federal court. The judge was damming of the behaviour of every Qantas executive and how Qantas deliberately and meticulously manufactured legal and industrial responses and strategy. The judge saw through it and ruled accordingly.
Shows what Qantas wants and communicates as facts via media, webinars, company moles on forums, differs to what the court of law says. “Qf have recently lost or settled a few significant legal matters. This means they have been found to have broken the law. They are far from infallible.” Spot on! It shows the importance of asking these questions in court. As opposed to basing decisions or relying on opinion that is completely unqualified on a Qrewroom or slack/Prune. I often think it’s the case of deliberate misinformation masquerading as “just my opinion”. Often it’s an attempt to steer the opinion of the masses toward the companies position as opposed to that which would benefit or be a right of the pilot Shows how important the legal system is proving to be. How many times have we seen this before. |
https://www.theage.com.au/business/c...03-p58fbq.html
Qantas to stand down 2500 employees in response to outbreaksThe decision will directly impact domestic pilots, cabin crew and airport workers, mostly in New South Wales but also in other states given the nature of airline networks.Not ideal |
These staff will also all be given two weeks notice apparently, with the stand down itself to last for eight weeks. After Sydney has been in lockdown this long, states closing borders etc I am surprised that this didn't happen sooner. As much as some people here like to slam Alan Joyce I think it's worth noting that those thousands of people have remained employed and drawing a full salary even without actually 'working' on flights which have been grounded. Or can people find something to criticise in that too?
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Originally Posted by MelbourneFlyer
(Post 11088985)
These staff will also all be given two weeks notice apparently, with the stand down itself to last for eight weeks. After Sydney has been in lockdown this long, states closing borders etc I am surprised that this didn't happen sooner. As much as some people here like to slam Alan Joyce I think it's worth noting that those thousands of people have remained employed and drawing a full salary even without actually 'working' on flights which have been grounded. Or can people find something to criticise in that too?
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Originally Posted by MelbourneFlyer
(Post 11088985)
These staff will also all be given two weeks notice apparently, with the stand down itself to last for eight weeks. After Sydney has been in lockdown this long, states closing borders etc I am surprised that this didn't happen sooner. As much as some people here like to slam Alan Joyce I think it's worth noting that those thousands of people have remained employed and drawing a full salary even without actually 'working' on flights which have been grounded. Or can people find something to criticise in that too?
Generous...BS..most 737 crew stood up had close to MGH on their line. Main Line is now seen as a casualised workforce, stood up at the whim of Management, stood down at minimal notice to suit the Industrial Agenda. Or do you mean generous, as in being paid $10 million dollars for the year, and having a large percentage of your workforce surviving on Government handouts? QCC never can gauge the workforce, there is too many filters to drown out the real world, staff are angry at how the Ground Staff were dismissed, that are livid about how they have been treated again today. It will be bubbly and bonuses all round in the next couple of weeks when the AMAZING profit is announced. Spare me the koolaid propaganda. |
Originally Posted by Street garbage
(Post 11089045)
Full Salary...BS
Generous...BS..most 737 crew stood up had close to MGH on their line. Main Line is now seen as a casualised workforce, stood up at the whim of Management, stood down at minimal notice to suit the Industrial Agenda. Or do you mean generous, as in being paid $10 million dollars for the year, and having a large percentage of your workforce surviving on Government handouts? QCC never can gauge the workforce, there is too many filters to drown out the real world, staff are angry at how the Ground Staff were dismissed, that are livid about how they have been treated again today. It will be bubbly and bonuses all round in the next couple of weeks when the AMAZING profit is announced. Spare me the koolaid propaganda. |
Originally Posted by ScepticalOptomist
(Post 11089077)
Agree. Don’t know how people like Melbourne Flyer come up with this dribble!
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Originally Posted by Street garbage
(Post 11089045)
It will be bubbly and bonuses all round in the next couple of weeks when the AMAZING profit is announced.
Spare me the koolaid propaganda. |
Originally Posted by morno
(Post 11089216)
hahahahahaha, profit, hahaha…… oh wait, you’re serious? You really think that you’re going to make a profit? :hmm:
When you can eliminate so much cost and manipulate to ensure there's a symbol of your success. |
Originally Posted by morno
(Post 11089216)
hahahahahaha, profit, hahaha…… oh wait, you’re serious? You really think that you’re going to make a profit? :hmm:
don’t you work for JQ? So isn’t that you as well? EBITDA, yep. But by the time they write down the value of literally everything to position themselves for transformation bonus MKII, a massive loss. |
Originally Posted by Lapon
(Post 11089005)
No doubt many would be thankful for how it has played out to date this time around, although Im not sure it was simply 'an act of generosity'.
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Originally Posted by Street garbage
(Post 11089045)
It will be bubbly and bonuses all round in the next couple of weeks when the AMAZING profit is announced.
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Originally Posted by MelbourneFlyer
(Post 11089525)
I didn't say it was 'an act of generosity', those are your words, my point is that nobody can deny that letting these works remain on full salary for all that time while unable to perform their actual duties is pretty decent but that Qantas and Alan Joyce would probably see no acknowledgement of that here, compared to the immediate cries for blood if those workers had been stood down as soon as flights were reduced.
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Wow, P377, if juvenile retorts like that are best you can do, no wonder your actual opinions seem so ill-informed.
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Originally Posted by MelbourneFlyer
(Post 11089946)
Wow, P377, if juvenile retorts like that are best you can do, no wonder your actual opinions seem so ill-informed.
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P377, how about trying to debate the issue rather than the personalities? I know that's hard for you when playground-level insults seem to be your forte, but do tell, what is so bad about Qantas' decision to keep so many staff on salary during the past month despite demand and flights being crippled by the lockdowns? Or are you incapable of admitting that Alan Joyce and the QF execs can in fact make business decisions which are not always as evil as you like to portray?
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Originally Posted by Paragraph377
(Post 11089955)
But a sensible reply would be wasted on your ridiculous notion that Alan and the Board are doing a wonderfully amazing job at Qantas when it comes to its treatment of its staff.
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Originally Posted by MelbourneFlyer
(Post 11089967)
P377, how about trying to debate the issue rather than the personalities? I know that's hard for you when playground-level insults seem to be your forte, but do tell, what is so bad about Qantas' decision to keep so many staff on salary during the past month despite demand and flights being crippled by the lockdowns? Or are you incapable of admitting that Alan Joyce and the QF execs can in fact make business decisions which are not always as evil as you like to portray?
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Originally Posted by Paragraph377
(Post 11089969)
I don’t need to debate anything as my opinion remains unchanged. I’m sure the 2,500 sacked ground handlers, sacked for the purpose of saving an alleged $100m per annum wouldn’t see things the way you do, Shane.
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Originally Posted by MelbourneFlyer
(Post 11089979)
Well if I was running an airline and could save at least $100m per year by moving to outsourced contract staff, which is a model that works around the world and which has been proven to be more efficient than having your own employees who are notorious as a group for over-crewing and feather-bedding, sleeping open the job, milking the rosters to maximise penalties and overtime etc, then yes, that's exactly what I would do, and any CEO who would not do this doesn't deserve to be CEO in the first place. But it sounds to me like you're just another overly critical 'armchair airline CEO' who can't take an objective view of anything because your established prejudice gets colours your worldview.
I wonder how much money Qantas will save by having their aircraft damaged in outports by cheap contractors with cheap GSE and working under extreme manpower shortages? Oh that’s right, wasn’t it 3 aircraft grounded nationally in one week due to GSE damage? I also wonder how Qantas feel about those pesky load control errors that have occurred exponentially since outsourcing ground operations. |
Originally Posted by Paragraph377
(Post 11089999)
Wow Shane, I’m sure that the ground crew that worked hard would love to hear your esteemed analysis of their alleged poor performance.
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Originally Posted by MelbourneFlyer
(Post 11090016)
My comments don't apply to all of them of course but there were enough that rode the gravy train for decades and now that ride has come to an end. Same as the goings-on at the wharves until the late 90s when Patricks cleaned things out. Yes, a lot of pain and anger there but guess what, we actually ended up dragging Australia's waterfront operations into the 20th century and making them more efficient by every measure. There's simply no room in the world these days for those sorts of cushy practises of the 1950s and 1960s mindset, and I make no apologies for expecting any business, let alone one the size and important of Qantas, to be running like a business.
There's simply no room in the world these days for those sorts of cushy practises of the 1950s and 1960s mindset |
Totally agree Snoozer.
Yep, to retrench 2500 people to save $100 million is essential to the survival of our business. To pay the CEO $10.24 million is essential for the survival of our business. Hypocrisy doesn't even come close. Melbourne Flyer, I, like most of the other crew I work with, wouldn't the money being saved by these decisions was re-invested in the Mainline Product- but unfortunately, it is be used to line the pockets of the Few. And if you (as in Management) don't get it- the main issue with stand down is that Crew were FORCED to return, and give up secondary employment on the basis that they were permanently Stood Up ( and so Alliance could operate former 737 services...). Keeping us stood up was "To maintain Operational Flexibility"...DH's words, not mine...not because it was a nice gesture. And as for Mental Health that has dominated Yammer in the last couple of weeks- the Company could not give a toss. And yes, if EBITDA is a loss, I will say sorry, I have integrity- and admit to errors. |
Street Garbage, don't misunderstand me, I am certainly not suggesting that the job of Qantas Group CEO is worth $10m per year. I think $7.5m is more appropriate, with maybe $5m for the CEOs of QF domestic and QF international. But much less than that would be hard to see working, I mean, if the CEO of Qantas Group is $5m then the CEO of each operational arm of the airline would be paid quite a bit less, eg $3m, and that's just not going to fly in today's business world.
And I also agree there needs to be more investment in the airline, be it fleet or product or lounges. But right now that $100m per year is really just going to help bring the books back into balance, not a lot in the scheme of things but it all adds up. |
Well, we are in a much much worse position than this time last yr. Hiw much of that runway that AJ always talks about is left? Outside of SY base you might be lucky to fly again this yr, NSW is out until next yr at the earliest.
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Originally Posted by SHVC
(Post 11090054)
Well, we are in a much much worse position than this time last yr…..
…….Outside of SY base you might be lucky to fly again this yr, NSW is out until next yr at the earliest. Talk about a glass half empty kind of person. You must be a hoot to hang around! :-) |
Originally Posted by MelbourneFlyer
(Post 11090044)
I am certainly not suggesting that the job of Qantas Group CEO is worth $10m per year. I think $7.5m is more appropriate, with maybe $5m for the CEOs of QF domestic and QF international. But much less than that would be hard to see working, I mean, if the CEO of Qantas Group is $5m then the CEO of each operational arm of the airline would be paid quite a bit less, eg $3m, and that's just not going to fly in today's business world.
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Originally Posted by ScepticalOptomist
(Post 11090060)
With all due respect, how can you possibly assert that? Everyone is so full of their own BS here on PPRUNE!
Talk about a glass half empty kind of person. You must be a hoot to hang around! :-) |
Originally Posted by MelbourneFlyer
(Post 11089979)
Well if I was running an airline and could save at least $100m per year by moving to outsourced contract staff, which is a model that works around the world and which has been proven to be more efficient than having your own employees who are notorious as a group for over-crewing and feather-bedding, sleeping open the job, milking the rosters to maximise penalties and overtime etc, then yes, that's exactly what I would do, and any CEO who would not do this doesn't deserve to be CEO in the first place. But it sounds to me like you're just another overly critical 'armchair airline CEO' who can't take an objective view of anything because your established prejudice gets colours your worldview.
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When were the cash reserves supposed to be able to last until?
Was it the end of 2021? At this rate we will be lucky if there is anything left to go back to. MCD |
I guess we will just have to wait until the 26th Aug to get a clearer picture of Qantas’s financial position.
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I think the last few months extended it, JQ was making a profit he last dial in we were told. But I agree we will be lucky to have a company to return to if this keeps up past 2021! NSW is out of the game for rest of the yr ppl need to realize regardless of the vaccination Gladys wants as other states will not let NSW travel there. Dan is locking Vic down weekly this is not sustainable.
Mid 2022 will see a very different country in what is left, seems Bain are tipping in more cash keeping their pilots and cabin crew paid even tho they’re not flying. |
Originally Posted by SHVC
(Post 11090424)
...seems Bain are tipping in more cash keeping their pilots and cabin crew paid even tho they’re not flying.
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Reserves to end-2021 was based on zero flying revenue and was prior to VR CR LWOP Jobkeeper, mortgaging the 787s and so on.
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