If the situation was reversed and we were talking about Air New Zealand and their lower cost Australian subsidiary, how much sympathy would be flowing westbound across the Tasman?

Anyway, it’s irrelevant. Each pilot body takes what it can. There is no unity, just repeated backing of the horse called “self interest”.

Please excuse my ignorance. Does Air NZ have a LCC subsidiary in Aus?

Hence starting my post with “if” - it’s a hypothetical.

The point of my post was that no group would behave any better or differently than the other, and their perspective of what’s fair or right will generally be based on what favours them.

Also, I said lower cost not LCC -
Qantas - JetConnect
Jetstar - Jetstar NZ

All that happens is everyone feels aggrieved and the various groups fight. Again, everyone just looking out for themselves.

Yes, don’t get me wrong, I did say that Qantas Mainline is the same as every other airline in that it’s own pilots looks after themselves number one. I just always am amazed at the whole ‘well hopefully no one will stoop so low as to take that job’! We are all in this for ourselves and if I can get a flying job in this market that puts a pay check in the account I am going to take it without consideration for how it may affect Qantas Mainline pilots, it is not personal but people have to work and sadly management know it and abuse that fact.

Cessna Jockey,

It must be a struggle not being able to pick up your duty free.

I bet the senior guys in your company who still arent working will be wrapped with your attitude.

Well done.

MCD.

If contracts were appropriate, Duty Free savings of a few shekels a week would not be so important. I'd suggest a serious discussion with a good union rep if you can't join the dots yourself:)

You must not be too familiar with sarcasm. Or bothered to read Cj's first paragraph... :ugh:

Deleted.

MCD

Qantas pilots lay bare mental toll from not flying

https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/...06-p5877h.html

The quicker people realise that Qantas Group Management don’t give a **** about individual employees the better. It is happening across the board, in NZ we had one base stood down while the other flew full time and apart from the first 12 weeks there was NO Government payments, they were on their own. In OZ you have Jetstar 787 Pilots stood down whilst the Narrowbody fleet was looking at recruiting. Management don’t care, they are engineering the survival of the airline to ensure most of the staff may have a future job to return to, that sucks if you are one that has been chosen to sacrifice your salary for 2 years but complaining to Management won’t help. Do what I did, remove yourself from social media, don’t partake in roadshows and press delete on your company communication emails…… you will be much happier.

Good advice. A further bit of advice FWIW, do not consider your employer or your employment to be part of a corporate family. They are not your family and as many people have discovered they are only interested in their survival and are more than happy to have you bare the brunt of corporate decisions. I am all for the QF&JQ social media page as a form of non-corporate communication but casual workplace connections don't last beyond your staff number. My relationship with my employer is limited to, me doing the best job I am capable of doing, them paying me what I am entitled to. If I am part of a QF Group family then that makes AJ the patriarch, no thanks.

Totally agree with Ollie Onion, Qantas Management don't give a damn...you only to read this mornings SMH, with the Yammer post's that have been leaked, to see the total disregard they have for the welfare of their Crew. The absolute BS lies about other positions being available within the Group...sorry, how many crew have got an interview for Alliance or Q-Link Dash 8 positions that were "advertised"...zero. They should be ashamed, but you only have to look at how they have treated the Ground Service staff to see where this is heading.

I havent seen any of the leaked posts but really dont need to.
The attitude of management towards their staff has been disgraceful for many years.
They care little or zero about anyone except themselves & when they tell you how they know how much you are suffering that is BS as suggested above.
The ground service staff f over is a great indication of what they think of everyone but we still have the model employees bending over backwards to help them out.
1 day they will realise they have advanced to #1 on the shafting list.

It really stood out to me when I did that 6 month stint at Woolworths last year. The top tile of the strategy in that place is, customer and team come first. I got to sit in on one of the Town Halls they had there. A CEO who actually cares, and does a good job. Cost is never talked about. No negativity. One Plan. It’s all about the customer and team.

It was actually quite depressing returning back here. Doesn’t need to be like this. All starts from the top. Unfortunately the rot has cascaded right down here. I hope the next generation has better luck.

My advice to the young ones I work with is much the same. Don’t be like these people and the company will thrive. What we see isn’t normal. I look forward to the generation changeover in 20 years I’m sure it will be a better place to work.

Both QLink and Alliance have QF crew who are on either LWOP or secondment. They are on current ground schools and would be close to type ratings/sims by now.

True enough. There have been a few.

There have also been many who have been knocked back such as a S/O with extensive turbo prop time not even getting a look in with QLink.

And lots of boys and girls with 2, 3, 4 or 5,000 hours 320 time that couldn’t even get an interview in the west.

lots of guys with 5000 hours couldn’t even get an interview at Mainline while they hired grade 3 instructors as SOs. There is no rhyme or reason when it comes to recruitment and most of us have learnt to accept that.

Alliance is not part of the Qantas Group.

And as mentioned, there are QF pilots there on LWOP doing Type Ratings.

Experience, and I mean industry experience as opposed to flying experience, is a threat to management. Someone who has been around long enough to amass thousands of hours has also been around long enough to have had their fill of company BS. Some “kid” off the street with dreams of getting to the big time will do almost anything to make it. The rhyme and the reason is industrial, pure and simple.

I agree that there is frequently no rhyme or reason about a recruitment process but those sort of idiosyncrasies are a very different issue to stood down crew with ‘no useable work’ not getting a look in despite being very qualified for the role when other parts of the group are recruiting externally.

Group???? There is no Group.

It is a series of completely separate stand alone entities.

In most other countries including the US if you’re furloughed, generally almost all new employers require you to fully resign/terminate recall rights in order to be hired.

We haven’t been furloughed - we’ve been placed in limbo. Big difference. If we had been made redundant and paid as such, it’d be a different conversation.

Redundancies are done Last On First Off. Most of the redundant crew would’ve had only had a year or so of employment therefore only be entitled to a few weeks of redundancy payout, which isn’t going to sustain them for long. Only a little more than gaining annual leave on stand down really.

That’s not what the company think. They believe redundancy is limited to which agreement you work under LHEA/SHEA.

I agree Ollie - except that management are engineering the survival so most have a job to return to.
The airline will only survive, and thus most jobs, If thats the best method for the parasites at the top to make the best out of this scenario for their own personal gain and legacy.

You're missing my point.

furlough in the US is basically the same, limbo. You’re essentially fired but with recall rights.

My point is that any operator hiring typically only hires pilots that give up their recall rights.

And what's you point? They are stood down, without pay, for an indefinite period of time, due to there "being no useful work", yet other section's of the Company- Alliance, Network- to which these stood crew were advised they could apply to- are recruiting externally, whilst they can't even get an interview. Management is deliberately placing barriers in their way to stop them being employed- any other explanation is just the usual QF Management BS spin.
Comparing furlough and being "Stood Down" is irrelevant, to accept the offer of employment within the Group then you have to take LWOP.

Late 90’s a %100 Qantas owned airline had no work , jetstar interviewing but pilots told it’s a separate airline and you’ll need to organise your own interview . Mainline union said they can’t help . All pilots let go . They have long history of not wanting to help too much along with unions protecting their own work .

Late 90"s..really?
Impulse aquired November 2001
Jetstar announced 2003, first service May 2004.
Please tell me which 100% owned airline had no work, because 95-97 and 99 onwards mainline was recruiting continuously.
As for AIPA protecting their own work- that is the whole basis of the above pots, AIPA is trying cover Network/ Alliance (etc etc) Pilots whilst not protecting the interest of their Mainline Crew- LH speaks for itself, SH Divisor (before this outbreak) was trending southwards due to increased flying (ask any SH crew in Perth/ Adelaide).

Southern was name of airline . Pilots approached Qantas union but was told go away we don’t look after turbo prop pilots ! Although half the pilots where flying jets and had lots of jet experience . Impulse was turned into jetstar and Southern had to go . There was a job offer to go to Eastern so not all bad news .

Not really, there’s nothing stopping a pilot from quitting their stood down job (giving up recall rights) in order for another company to take them on the books.

I don’t agree with how QF or VA has handled their pilot group, but that being said it’s really no surprise that another company is shying away from hiring pilots that still have their foot back the pond of their old employer.

Southern was closed down in about '99 and the jets were sent to (and I think operated by) National Jet Systems as QLink. Then NJS was equipped a few years later with the B717 when Jetstar started with the A320.

There was a period of time between 2001 when QF bought Impulse and when Jetstar was started in 2004, that Impulse operated as QLink. AIPA were slow to understand what was going on and took a while before they come to the realisation that the other Group airlines were here to stay and they needed to reach out to those pilots. From memory that didn't start to happen until around 2008.

Southern were still operating the three BAE-146’s post September 2001.

Thanks for the heads up .

A few SAA people drifting back to Aus now and they might be lucky enough to get a job flying for one of the Qantas operators . Hearing a mainline pilot complaining he should be first to get a group job ahead of someone off the street will be of little interest to such a person .
Good luck to us all .

Very hard to see the point you are trying to make when almost every part of your original post is incorrect.
Jetstar did not exist in the late 90’s.
Qantas did not own Impulse at that time.
AIPA couldn’t have legally done anything for the Southern pilots because they did not have coverage of them.
And your point that current Qantas pilots shouldn’t expect jobs at other group airlines because Southern pilots weren’t offered the same, is completely undone by your own statement:

Or they were under strict orders not to do anything. Given the number of AIPA Presidents who magically have ended up in QF management my money would not be on they didn't understand what was going on. Blind Freddy could see what was happening but you have to actually want to represent Pilot interests if you want to do something.

I think the number of AIPA Presidents to end up in QF Management over the past 3 or so decades is about 2.

And I don’t think either of them pushed the Association in the direction you have indicated.

Admittedly, the last one was fairly recent, and his movement to management was widely frowned upon.

There was a brief president who didn’t want to expand to represent Group entities around the time of the commencement of Jetstar. He got voted out. Some folks blame him for creating an “us vs them” industrial climate that exists to this day.

However, since it’s formation, AIPA was not permitted to represent other entities, including other Qantas Group entities. The government had a change of policy at some stage (under John Howard I think) and decided to encourage Union competition rather than prohibit it.

I believe a rule change was sought by AIPA in 2005 (under RH). It was opposed by every party under the sun, including AFAP, and of course, Qantas, Jetstar and QantasLink, and I think it took at least a couple of years of legal process to succeed. Since then, AIPA has been able to represent other group entities. Since then, some pilots in group entities have chosen AIPA, some have chosen AFAP, and some have looked at the whole mess and chosen nothing.

AFAP got it’s own back recently by going through a similar process to allow it to represent QF mainline pilots, which was, of course, opposed by AIPA, and interestingly, Qantas.

AFAP succeeded.