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-   -   QF Group possible Redundancy Numbers/Packages (https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/633072-qf-group-possible-redundancy-numbers-packages.html)

ScepticalOptomist 12th Jul 2020 09:06

If the company end up making anyone CR, it will be via the master seniority list as the IA has precedence.

Sure, those in SH wish it weren’t so, and those in LH do, but IR law doesn’t really bother with opinions - just the agreements as signed by the interested parties. Whether you’re LH or SH - we have one seniority list.

I don’t believe anyone will be made CR.

Give it the herbs 12th Jul 2020 09:51


Originally Posted by Emmit Stussy (Post 10835120)
Thanks for your response Troo, but this doesn’t speak to my initial query regarding Fujiroll’s post #678.
Once again, I’m possibly not asking the right question.

In his post of #678 he said,

"60 to 61 - 65
61 to 62 - 59
62 to 63 - 50

Gives you approximately - 170 who would be considering the package very closely. Now I don't have the data on LHvSH age split, but for arguments sake lets assume 20% are SH pilots who are ineligible - Left with around 140 give or take."

Rather than me asking the wrong question (again); could you or Give it the herbs or Fuji himself explain what this sentence (in bold) means.

He is saying the number of pilots in those age brackets listed is inclusive of both SH and LH pilots. So, to find a way to roughly rule out how many of those 170 pilots are in SH (who as you know are not eligible for VR), he is assuming it's approx. 20% of them. Given the way our seniority lists are written, it would be an absolute nightmare to work out the exact numbers without knowing each of those pilots by name and what fleet they are on.

Ruvap 12th Jul 2020 09:52


Originally Posted by LTBC (Post 10835117)
Yes, the 747 is the only role that is redundant. The RIN process is what prevents redundancies in category.

If the company wants to make SH pilots redundant due to a SH surplus, it can.


The A380 is effectively redundant. It ain’t coming back. It’s finished so those stood down pilots are basically unemployed until the company comes clean and decides on the future of the A380, but that decision won’t come soon. So A380 crew are screwed for now. The IA will first model all Q and all A pilots going back to their original hauls. Then it will determine where the surplus is. We already know it’s in LH. Then it should start chopping from the bottom of the Q list, below the Y of course. A’ Pilots will be the last ones sacked in the case of a LH surplus. Hopefully those over 60 will just leave. I know they are whinging to AIPA because they cannot arrange their final flights! Man, if that’s their biggest problem, they have lost the plot.

Keg 12th Jul 2020 10:45


Originally Posted by LTBC (Post 10834997)
CR can’t create a vacancy otherwise the position was never actually redundant.

This alone means SH is quarantined from a LH surplus.

As others have pointed out, you could get rid of 100 SH pilots and it won’t create a vacancy in the current flying program.


Originally Posted by ScepticalOptomist (Post 10835157)
I don’t believe anyone will be made CR.

Agreed.

Emmit Stussy 12th Jul 2020 12:36


He is saying the number of pilots in those age brackets listed is inclusive of both SH and LH pilots.
The above doesn’t make sense; there are no short haul pilots in long haul.

Except for that cohort of pilots who fall into the “early retirement” category, every other pilot in long haul is eligible for VR. Says so in the HoBO’s email last Friday.

SandyPalms 12th Jul 2020 12:43

Emmit, there is a graph showing the number of pilots in QF who turn 65, year by year. Its all of us, not SH or LH, but everyone employed in QF mainline. Doesn't matter if you're in SH or LH you can still turn 65. That is the chart he is referring to. So he is taking 20% out of the numbers to try and reflect an accurate number that may be in SH who will turn 65, as SH pilots are not eligible to take thus round of VR.

Emmit Stussy 12th Jul 2020 13:00

This isn’t about that group who will turn 65 on or before 01/07/2022. I’m happy to disregard the quoted 20%, Fujiroll’s premise that there’s short haul pilots in long haul (and therefore ineligible for VR) is incorrect.
I say again, there are no short haul pilots in long haul.

SandyPalms 12th Jul 2020 13:12


Originally Posted by Emmit Stussy (Post 10835307)
This isn’t about that group who will turn 65 on or before 01/07/2022. I’m happy to disregard the quoted 20%, Fujiroll’s premise that there’s short haul pilots in long haul (and therefore ineligible for VR) is incorrect.
I say again, there are no short haul pilots in long haul.

I thought you were responding to Troo?
Nobody is suggesting SH pilots are in LH. I think you've missed the point. Are you in QF and a member of AIPA? Have you seen the chart?

Keg 12th Jul 2020 14:08


Originally Posted by Emmit Stussy (Post 10835307)
Fujiroll’s premise that there’s short haul pilots in long haul (and therefore ineligible for VR) is incorrect.
I say again, there are no short haul pilots in long haul.

No. His premise was that 20% of the numbers he was quoting may be in SH and are therefore ineligible for VR.

Fujiroll76 12th Jul 2020 21:51

That was exactly the road I was going down.

Emmit - Please don’t get the two confused. I’m not saying there are SH pilots in LH at all. The age graph includes both and therefore to get somewhat accurate figures I used an assumption that there would be approx 20% SH in the above 60 category.

Again it’s not perfect as you can’t know exactly BUT 20 seems reasonable and gives us all a ballpark to work towards.



Koizi 12th Jul 2020 22:57

Looking ahead, let's say there is a solid uptake of ER and VR. Also likely is that every LH SO hired since late 2016 "volunteers" for LWOP out of fear of CR, not wanting the "pass-over" plague to rise to their number.
Company is going to be pretty happy with the result.

Wingspar 12th Jul 2020 23:09


Originally Posted by Koizi (Post 10835628)
Looking ahead, let's say there is a solid uptake of ER and VR. Also likely is that every LH SO hired since late 2016 "volunteers" for LWOP out of fear of CR, not wanting the "pass-over" plague to rise to their number.
Company is going to be pretty happy with the result.

Then QF will be short if they want to reactivate the 380’s.
Then the cascade affect with training people up.
Sound silly?
Last VR they were recruiting well within two years!

Koizi 12th Jul 2020 23:21

I guess my question is, when every SO on the 330/787 applies for LWOP (and I suspect it would be a gamble not to ) will they approve them all even if they get a solid VR/ER subscription?

ruprecht 12th Jul 2020 23:26


Originally Posted by Koizi (Post 10835639)
I guess my question is, when every SO on the 330/787 applies for LWOP (and I suspect it would be a gamble not to ) will they approve them all even if they get a solid VR/ER subscription?

How many LWOPs equal 1 CR?

Thats the question, I think. The company is trying to save money. If enough take LWOP then I feel CR will not be necessary.

thec172man 12th Jul 2020 23:40


Originally Posted by ruprecht (Post 10835643)
How many LWOPs equal 1 CR?

Thats the question, I think. The company is trying to save money. If enough take LWOP then I feel CR will not be necessary.

Why run CR? If they don't get enough numbers for VR and LWOP, just run another EOI for LWOP. The company approves LWOP, so they can just ask for another round of LWOP with a new deadline, if they really wanted to avoid CR and having the redundancy by haul or straight seniority case tested.

SixDemonBag 13th Jul 2020 00:34


Originally Posted by Koizi (Post 10835639)
I guess my question is, when every SO on the 330/787 applies for LWOP (and I suspect it would be a gamble not to ) will they approve them all even if they get a solid VR/ER subscription?

I’m sure they would take up every LWOP application they are given. It’s only a 4 week activation to get them back, isn’t it? Plus they could heavy crew long sectors if they got caught with their pants down

Variable Incidence 13th Jul 2020 01:39

Surely if enough pilots were to take LWOP there’d be no need for VR or CR as effectively the LWOP pilots aren’t a cash drain to the business anymore? Or am I missing something?

Fonz121 13th Jul 2020 01:52


I’m sure they would take up every LWOP application they are given. It’s only a 4 week activation to get them back, isn’t it? Plus they could heavy crew long sectors if they got caught with their pants down
It’s only on special lwop that they can recall you with 4 weeks notice. I don’t know who will actually take that up considering you’re still on the chopping block whereas you’re not on normal lwop.

Keg 13th Jul 2020 02:24


Originally Posted by Wingspar (Post 10835629)
Last VR they were recruiting well within two years!

20 months! And they were slow off the mark and should have been recruiting earlier than that!

Koizi et al, sit on your hands. Your accrued leave is less than 12% of your total income. For a S/O with less than three years in that’s about $15K per annum? 200 S/Os taking LWOP saves $3 million. That’s a rounding error!

ScepticalOptomist 13th Jul 2020 07:44


Originally Posted by Koizi (Post 10835639)
I guess my question is, when every SO on the 330/787 applies for LWOP (and I suspect it would be a gamble not to ) will they approve them all even if they get a solid VR/ER subscription?

I’d argue they’d be crazy to take LWOP unless they have another job. Scaring them into it is a cunning plan, but I don’t think they need to do that to avoid CR.

As I said before, I doubt anyone will be made CR.


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