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-   -   QF Group possible Redundancy Numbers/Packages (https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/633072-qf-group-possible-redundancy-numbers-packages.html)

normanton 8th Jun 2020 03:44

We need to take our pilot hat off, and put on a company hat.

What would you do to reduce pilot costs to 0 while there is no flying?

Green.Dot 8th Jun 2020 04:00

My pilot hat has been off for a while now mate!

good riddance to that white thing!

Lookleft 8th Jun 2020 04:19


We need to take our pilot hat off, and put on a company hat.
I don't have a pilot hat but when those wearing the company hats have an idea of what those wearing the pilot hats do for the company then there can be a swap.

neville_nobody 8th Jun 2020 04:26


We need to take our pilot hat off, and put on a company hat. What would you do to reduce pilot costs to 0 while there is no flying?
Bizarre question because if you are stood down there is nothing you can do as you are not obligated to do anything and you are not being paid!! Unless of course you want to lead by example and resign that might help.

normanton 8th Jun 2020 04:41


Originally Posted by neville_nobody (Post 10805289)
Bizarre question because if you are stood down there is nothing you can do as you are not obligated to do anything and you are not being paid!! Unless of course you want to lead by example and resign that might help.

You are still accruing sick leave / annual leave. Tino said he has that in his sights.

Why don't you answer the question neville? Don't like the answer?

ExtraShot 8th Jun 2020 05:29


Originally Posted by dr dre (Post 10805272)
Thereís probably only 100-150 ish 747 pilots remaining anyway. From what Iím led to believe a lot of them were planning on retiring when the fleet retired so they were going anyway. Add to that the retirements that probably wouldíve been occurring on other fleets in the next 12 months and thatíll sort out the remaining 747 numbers. Donít forget the 150 pilots who wonít be recruited into mainline to replace those retiring 747 (and other) pilots over the next 12 months are sort of job losses in a way.

If there is a permanent reduction in any other fleets (not just shorter term stand downs) then thereíll be the need to talk of surpluses, but it doesnít look like theyíre proceeding on that path from anything which has been said at the moment.


Yeah, I would have imagined any genuine surplus from the 747 would have been about that number (100-150, plus the same yet to be recruited to replace them, so roughly 300 in total). If 100 or so make the decision or some are offered some kind of VR, then provided we donít have another catastrophe the numbers should be about right.

The twin engined fleets look look like being the way forward for a while, so youíd have to say theyíd want those numbers to be maintained for a ramp up over the next 12 months or so.

Thatíd be a little bit of a relief to those on the bottom of the list anyway.


Blueskymine 8th Jun 2020 05:36

Finally some reason on here.

Iíd be highly surprised if QF make ANY pilot CR. Maybe some early retirements and VR. A small RIN from the 747. Thatís about the extent of it.

Once the borders open watch it take off quicker than anyone expected and life will go on.

Remember thereís 3 x new 787s waiting to be crewed and parked up. Theyíll be busy soon.

C441 8th Jun 2020 06:14

Whilst there are some close to 65/retirement on the 744, many Captains are younger (and senior) than/to me and I'm not yet 60.
At some point the three or four (down)training courses that result from each RIN'ed pilot or paying for additional F/Os and maybe even Captains not required in rank, will be a greater cost than a VR.
Compulsory redundancies off the bottom will not change that.

"We need to take our pilot hat off, and put on a company hat."
Normanton, some would suggest you hadn't removed your Company hat since the commencement of the EA10 discussion! :)

normanton 8th Jun 2020 06:22


Originally Posted by angryrat (Post 10805304)
So why do pilot costs have to be 0??

Because that is what Tino said in the webinar. That is the "flexibility" he is looking for. Doesn't mean I agree with it.


Originally Posted by C441 (Post 10805324)
Normanton, some would suggest you hadn't removed your Company hat since the commencement of the EA10 discussion! :)

Ahh well I guess 80 odd % of pilots agreed with me enough to vote yes. Shall they all remove their company hat too?

Love it :D

neville_nobody 8th Jun 2020 06:46


You are still accruing sick leave / annual leave. Tino said he has that in his sights. Why don't you answer the question neville? Don't like the answer?
I am aware of that and you can't refuse it as it is a requirement under law. It would take a court case or some legal maneuvering with the government to have it waivered. It would also set a precedent that may not be appreciated by the government or other unions and could have other unintended consequences.

It is a bit of a long shot, but maybe they're getting desperate and running out of options.

Slezy9 8th Jun 2020 07:33


Originally Posted by Blueskymine (Post 10805307)
Finally some reason on here.

Once the borders open watch it take off quicker than anyone expected and life will go on.

Remember thereís 3 x new 787s waiting to be crewed and parked up. Theyíll be busy soon.

Do you think borders will open anytime soon? Other than the "Tasman Bubble" I just can't see it happening in the near future? Are you aware that at the moment you need permission to leave the country as an Australian Citizen?

Leaving Australia


If you are an Australian citizen or a permanent resident you cannot leave Australia due to COVID-19 restrictionsunless you have an exemption.

crosscutter 8th Jun 2020 07:34

Letís say pilots agreed to waive leave accrual whilst stood down...kicks the can down the road and saves 150 jobs just like that. Zero cost to the company whilst pilots do the lifting. Company win, pilots Ďdo the right thingí. Sounds like continuation of EBA season.

lost leave should be repaid in 24months. Then itís a non current liability.

Wingspar 8th Jun 2020 07:51

I love it!
Qantas never cease to surprise me.
Even being stood down with no pay, sick leave etc they’re still looking for efficiencies!
Classic!

C441 8th Jun 2020 07:56


Originally Posted by crosscutter (Post 10805356)
Let’s say pilots agreed to waive leave accrual whilst stood down...kicks the can down the road and saves 150 jobs just like that. Zero cost to the company whilst pilots do the lifting. Company win, pilots ‘do the right thing’.

Try telling that to the Pilots who have little or no leave left now and are living off Jobkeeper. At least when Jobkeeper ceases (possibly/probably) at the end of September they'll have another few weeks of base pay income and can rely on having a further week of base pay for every 60 days they're stood-down after that. Some of those Pilots are conceivably looking at another 12 to 18 months of stand-down.

Sure, they can look at other income sources but after September it would be reasonable to assume that some businesses will fail and the job-seeker market will grow.

Iron Bar 8th Jun 2020 08:44

All the more reason to get out there and find another income now. Itís a big reality check, but the days of LH gravy are going to pause for a bit.

ozbiggles 8th Jun 2020 08:47

For those holding out hope of the international flood gates opening the Federal government has just said no more funding for international flights and both Qantas and Virgin have canceled all international passengers flights. (Sydney Morning Herald Sunday)
Winter is still coming and I don’t see Aus or NZ opening up international borders to go back to square one other than to each other and maybe the Pacific islands. Once the VA outcome is better understood and how long jobseeker will last I think the HR surgeons will know just how deep to cut. They won’t care if they go to hard as there will be plenty out there willing to take any spots on offer. Remember only a few months ago the talk was about the ULH conditions and they won that before the virus.Even Holdor had to let go in the end.

SandyPalms 8th Jun 2020 09:08


Originally Posted by Iron Bar (Post 10805421)
All the more reason to get out there and find another income now. It’s a big reality check, but the days of LH gravy are going to pause for a bit.

This is the advise we all need to listen to. This is going to suck for a long time to come. Find some other way to feed yourself and your family, and forget about returning to Qantas in the near future. If it gets better quick, that’s awesome, but I think we all know that’s not going to happen, at least not for LH. Qantas will do everything in their power to stop paying you anything, AL/LSL, redundancy, RIN, whatever, it’s a business and will do what it can. But remember, it’s not personal. You can take that to the bank.

dr dre 8th Jun 2020 09:23


Originally Posted by C441 (Post 10805378)
Try telling that to the Pilots who have little or no leave left now and are living off Jobkeeper. At least when Jobkeeper ceases (possibly/probably) at the end of September they'll have another few weeks of base pay income and can rely on having a further week of base pay for every 60 days they're stood-down after that. Some of those Pilots are conceivably looking at another 12 to 18 months of stand-down.

Sure, they can look at other income sources but after September it would be reasonable to assume that some businesses will fail and the job-seeker market will grow.

Those pilots could be made eligible for JobSeeker (not keeper), and that would give them at least a basic income.

That would probably be better than 1/8th of their base income (1 week per 60 days) in the form of leave.

As to what to do beyond that? Well thatíll have to be up to those stood down pilots themselves. Some are looking at temporarily re-skilling, looking at running their own small businesses, accepting positions of even unskilled labour if itís available, modifying their lifestyle to suit.

Yes itís a reduction in pay and lifestyle from what they were used to in the past. I donít really have any words of encouragement beyond that. Nowhere in any society is there a job on a 747 Captainís wage that you can easily walk into with no prior skills or experience.

If there is a word of encouragement, Aviation will return. The Boeing forecast was for 600,000 new pilots over the next 20 years, no doubt itíll be decreased somewhat but it will still be a huge number. Developing economies are expanding and modernising, necessitating more aviation. The pandemic will subside, in a year or so (or even earlier if a second wave does not appear). Management will want an airline roughly as big as it was at the start of the year in 2022/23 I presume. It is good that pilots will be able to return back to their original positions on what are still good terms and conditions after that period of stand down, rather than being made redundant and having to find another long term job from scratch

Section28- BE 8th Jun 2020 11:43

ex the SMH: Qantas and Virgin Australia suspend remaining international flights.....
 
Link/Reference here: https://www.smh.com.au/business/comp....html#comments

Extract here:


Qantas and Virgin Australia suspend remaining international flights


By Patrick Hatch

June 8, 2020 ó 3.45pm

Qantas and Virgin Australia have regrounded their remaining international passenger operations after government funding for the handful of overseas routes they were flying came to an end.

The Morrison government says it is reviewing whether it needs to fund further flights to get Australians home from abroad as some overseas airlines resume flying here.

Qantas and Virgin will again suspend their international passenger operations.

Under the government program, Qantas was flying a twice weekly London-Perth-Melbourne return service and a weekly Los Angeles-Melbourne service, the last of which landed on Monday morning.

Meanwhile Virgin - which is in voluntary administration seeking new owners - was flying a weekly Los Angeles-Brisbane service which ended Sunday.

Both airlines confirmed on Monday they had no further international passenger services scheduled following the end of the government scheme, with aircraft to be grounded and crews working the flights stood down.

A spokeswoman for the Deputy Prime Minister and Transport Minister Michael McCormack said the scheme with Qantas and Virgin was established to get Australians home as soon as possible amid the pandemic.

"The government is reviewing the program noting there are now alternative commercial flight options available from London and Los Angeles," she said.

The government also has previously arranged for ad hoc repatriation flights from Peru, Argentina, South Africa and India.

Government to extend financial backing for domestic flights

Qantas will continue to fly some international freight flights and said it was ready to fly any further repatriation flights for the government as needed.

A Qantas spokesman said the airline was "proud to have helped thousands of Australians return home as well as taking foreign nationals back in the other direction".

Over the weekend Mr McCormack announced the government will extend the underwriting over a minimum number of domestic and regional flights operated by Qantas, Virgin and Regional Express.

The end of Qantas and Virginís Los Angeles flights leaves United Airlinesí daily Sydney-San Francisco service as the only direct passenger air link between Australia and the United States.

Qatar Airways, Emirates and Etihad Airways have resumed regular flights connecting Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane and Perth to the UK, Europe, Middle East and Asia via their Gulf hubs, while Air New Zealand is operating some trans-Tasman flights and Cathay Pacific is flying to Hong Kong.

There is a $165m plan for Qantas and Virgin to resume domestic routes.

Under current border restrictions, only Australian citizens, residents and immediate family members can travel to Australia and must go into quarantine for 14 days on arrival.

Australians have been banned from leaving the the country since March 25 unless they receive an exemption because their travel relates to work combating the COVID-19 pandemic, is in an essential industry, is for medical treatment or on compassionate or humanitarian grounds.

Patrick Hatch
Business reporter at The Age and Sydney Morning Herald.
Rgds
S28- BE

ozbiggles 8th Jun 2020 11:48

Good news is Rex will get more money! Maybe they can go for a 12 jet operation?


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