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-   -   Government Loan to Virgin Australia (https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/631164-government-loan-virgin-australia.html)

Section28- BE 25th Apr 2020 11:17

Just- Really
 
Just, Fcukin- WOW !!!!!!!!!!!!! AVIATION Aye..........

'Guys'- nil WIN/Result in this/your shitting Comp!!!! and Indeed, you maybe- correct in 'your' own Idaho.........., however- whatever!!!!

'Icarus2010'- has tried..............., for 'Mine', 'I' will/shall 'try' and assemble some links for 'the' folk THAT ARE IN this 'shite-fight' that, maybe 'useful'........., Or NOT- Stuffs Me

e.g. the term-

majority in number and value
The 'assembled' Rocket Technicians shall BE allover, How 'that' GIG, Rolls OUT!!!!

Be nice to each other/& look after yourselves.
Best wishes & sincere Regards
S28- BE

Sunfish 25th Apr 2020 11:28

I think Virgin may have had it.


Virgin Australia owes thousands of creditors nearly $7 billion as fresh details of the failed airline's finances shed light on how difficult it would have been for the carrier to strike any rescue deal.]
https://www.theage.com.au/business/c...24-p54my4.html

601 25th Apr 2020 13:29


Air New Zealand overwhelmingly operate international flights out of Auckland. British Airways operate predominantly out of London. Air France out of Paris. Etc, etc.

Do the residents of Christchurch, Wellington, Manchester, Liverpool, Marseille, Lyon, etc, etc, bitch and moan that their national carrier is trying to screw then over??
You could fit all of those cities within spitting distance of SY.
Explain why QF flies, or did fly, to more than one destination in the US and little old NZ.

Chris2303 25th Apr 2020 21:48


Originally Posted by Sunfish (Post 10762536)
‘’I know for a fact that the Qantas practice of “hubbing most international flights out of Sydney during the 1970s and 1980s at least skewed foreign investment, principally in banking and IT disproportionately to NSW. It was deliberate and it cost QLD,VIC,SA a fortune in lost investment. The bias towards Sydney is NOT the behaviour of a business that claims to be a national airline, especially at the time it was taxpayer owned.

That's not a problem created by QF, that's a problem created by Australia's system of Government. If you had one Government for the whole country like NZ and England and Eire do, it is unlikely you would have this problem. Besides, hasn't SYD been the dominant city right back to the beginning of white settlement?

Besides - define "fact"

But I'm following somebody else's off topic chase down the rabbit hole - I'm sorry

krismiler 25th Apr 2020 23:33

Back in the 1970s and 1980s it was expected that you needed to go to a country's main city for a long haul flight, it wasn't much of a problem as you could only afford to do it a few times in your life. British Airways routing was LHR - BAH - SIN - PER - SYD. Brisbane didn't even have any night life, let alone a need for one stop to Europe. The Middle East airlines were able to make secondary cities viable because they could connect passengers through a hub. Emirates can offer Adelaide to Glasgow with one stop, QF can't.

In the UK, the equivalent of the entire population of Australia live within a reasonable travelling time by road and rail from Heathrow.

Sunfish 26th Apr 2020 00:08

krsmiler, Brisbane and Melbourne are not “secondary” cities in any case. Furthermore even cities like Glasgow, Liverpool, etc now have direct international links.

morno 26th Apr 2020 03:49

OMFG :ugh::ugh:

Are you really this thick in real life Sunfish?

QF will send their flights via the cities which will provide the best return. It’s simple economics buddy.

Like someone else said, in your shithole, you can go direct to almost as many cities as Sydney on QF.

George Glass 26th Apr 2020 07:32


Originally Posted by Sunfish (Post 10762536)
George, I have made it quite clear that my animus with Qantas is economic. Foreign investment is critical to Australia. Every study of inbound foreign investment behaviour demonstrates that direct international flights to potential investment locations is a critical factor in deciding where the investment is made.

‘’I know for a fact that the Qantas practice of “hubbing most international flights out of Sydney during the 1970’sand 1980’s at least skewed foreign investment, principally in banking and IT disproportionately to NSW. It was deliberate and it cost QLD,VIC,SA a fortune in lost investment. The bias towards Sydney is NOT the behaviour of a business that claims to be a national airline, especially at the time it was taxpayer owned.

As for Qantas staff and operations, I have most always been delighted by their professionalism and training...most of the time. I wish all of them well. I probably did YMEL,YSYD,LHR at least six times during the 70’s and 80’s since I had British family to visit. The QF staff were awesome, not so being dragged to Sydney after 20 + hours from LHR, and having to wait for three+ hours while the aircraft was cleaned and refurbished before boarding for the flight to Melbourne. What QF was effectively doing was ensuring Brisbane, Melbourne and Adelaide were four hours further from New York and London than Sydney.

I am also not a fan of the previous managements failed attempt to steal, sorry, take over, the airline as well as its horrible treatment of its staff, particularly its engineers.

And you know what? Left to its own devices Qantas will do it again and strangle economic development outside NSW. THAT is why Brisbane Melbourne and Sydney state governments are prepared to fight to get Virgin, not the airline jobs..

‘’To put it another way, Qantas is not acting in the nations best interests, therefore it should not be accorded the status of a national airline and the associated political clout.

‘’Do I make myself clear?

Yes you have. And its even more disturbing.
Tell you what , take your corner shop economics and park them for the duration.
Your imaginary world is not coming back.
One of the only upsides to this catastrophe is that governments worldwide will be re-evaluating the whole concept of mindless privatisation and globalisation and will HAVE TO work out how to restore the industry to a sustainable long term future.
The last 30 years will come to be seen as an aberration.
No more cheap flights to Croatia for you.
Sorry.

Ken Borough 26th Apr 2020 08:05


having to wait for three+ hours while the aircraft was cleaned and refurbished before boarding for the flight to Melbourne
Facts, Sunfish, facts! Back in the day when the QF2 operated via Sydney to Melbourne, the planned transit time was 100 minutes: STA was 0620LT while STD to MEL was 0800LT. Basic errors do little for whatever credibility you have. :ugh:

Ducksnuts 26th Apr 2020 08:29

The journalist from the West, Australia's aviation expert, is under challenge from the village lunatic hijacking this thread. If you have an agenda to push, have a bit of respect for Virgin staff, and start another thread about Melbourne vs Sydney. Don't use their unfortunate situation to gain traction for your agenda.

Hopefully there is a new owner who keeps Virgin moving the way it was. I have been through the AN debacle, and seriously feel for all you employees and the uncertainty that comes with it. Along with everybody else in the industry who is stood down.

morno 26th Apr 2020 09:05

And actually if my childhood memory is correct, I remember flying Singapore to Sydney VIA Melbourne. We got off in Melbourne while they cleaned it, then got back on the same 747 and flew to Sydney, and cleared customs in Sydney.

So you’re full of shit old man

ozbiggles 26th Apr 2020 12:35

I’m sorry, when did this become a thread on Hubs?
I know like all threads it became a slanging match on page 1, that hasn’t changed.

Transition Layer 26th Apr 2020 13:37


Originally Posted by morno (Post 10763625)
And actually if my childhood memory is correct, I remember flying Singapore to Sydney VIA Melbourne. We got off in Melbourne while they cleaned it, then got back on the same 747 and flew to Sydney, and cleared customs in Sydney.

So you’re full of shit old man

Quite correct. Remember doing SIN-MEL-SYD as a brand new SO. Horrible for fatigue too, with a red eye sector from SIN landing in MEL about 0430 then departing to SYD at 0600ish. :zzz:

lucille 29th Apr 2020 04:05

I read through this thread with shame. I've spent my 35+ years of my working career overseas as a proud Aussie. Something in our national character has changed for the worse during my absence,

The low level comments and vitriol on this thread have dismayed me. I've always wondered why the rest of the world has treated us with contempt, now I finally understand why.

I wonder whether its the safety of anonymity which encourages this behavior, either way its unedifying to see professional pilots squabble like this. And it isn't helping the cause of Aussie pilots who will be seeking work overseas if their future managers/employers read these threads.



DUXNUTZ 29th Apr 2020 07:44


Originally Posted by lucille (Post 10766730)
I read through this thread with shame. I've spent my 35+ years of my working career overseas as a proud Aussie. Something in our national character has changed for the worse during my absence,

The low level comments and vitriol on this thread have dismayed me. I've always wondered why the rest of the world has treated us with contempt, now I finally understand why.

I wonder whether its the safety of anonymity which encourages this behavior, either way its unedifying to see professional pilots squabble like this. And it isn't helping the cause of Aussie pilots who will be seeking work overseas if their future managers/employers read these threads.

LOL, Aussie pilots have a reputation as Austro-nauts and back stabbers. Are you just realizing this?

Square Bear 29th Apr 2020 08:56

.[/QUOTE]The low level comments and vitriol on this thread have dismayed me. I've always wondered why the rest of the world has treated us with contempt, now I finally understand why.[QUOTE]

Thank you for taking the time, and effort to enlighten us with your worldly views, I shall remember that sage advice when I consider posting comments on the region where I work....perhaps your low level comments could do the same?


chance 29th Apr 2020 10:07

As the starter of this thread I am dismayed at how, like many post on PPRuNe it goes off thread. Folks from 1989 and 2001 are still upset for good reasons and contemporary contributors faced with the challenges of the last decade in the Australian industry are also peeved.
This thread is about Virgin in 2020 and its fate and while history cannot be ignored the economic times are different to years ago.. Tomorrow Deloitte will deliver its first statement to creditors on VAH.
Let us wait until then to see what it says and please keep on the thread and not be diverted by the circumstances for many of unpleasant past experiences in Australia's last 30 years of aviation history.
Keep calm and rational folks just like we expect on the flight deck.

Sunfish 29th Apr 2020 10:28

And the first services that will start post pandemic will be XXX - SYD.

This is some of what is at stake and why QF is not a national carrier. It is a Sydney carrier. It is critical to Australia’s recovery from the pandemic that QF not be allowed to funnel International pax via Sydney.

There is any amount of literature on the impact of direct international flights on local economic growth. This is a real issue. Arguably, pre covid, Melbourne and Brisbane had finally got enough direct flights from foreign carriers to avoid the Sydney squeeze. However post covid, the Government needs to ensure that this bias towards Sydney by QF is not resurgent.


Not long ago, it was thought thatplanes would flatten the world, spreading us out even more than the rise of railroads and cars did in previous eras. But the reality has been much the reverse. Airplanes, airports, and air travel have contributed to our geographic spikiness, fueling the growing concentration of population and economic activity in a small number of large, productive, and well-connected superstar cities.

That’s one of the key findings of a recent study on the effects of global airports and air connectivity on economic and urban development. The study, by economists at Harvard University’s Kennedy School of Government and the University of Zurich, examines air travel’s role in the economic performance of more than 819 cities and metro areas in 200 different countries. Using detailed data from the International Civil Aviation Organization, it looks specifically at how direct flights facilitate business links and investments between pairs of cities, with data on over half a million businesses and more than 30,000 major business events around the world.
https://www.citylab.com/equity/2017/...rtunes/544478/


https://www.skyharbor.com/docs/defau...rsn=6a7a9a88_4


[QUOTE]Air connectivity is an effective engine for increasing both competitiveness and economic growth. That is particularly crucial in Europe, which relies on aviation to provide the international transport links that make Europe a global hub of social and economic connectivity, and to compete on the world stage. [/QUOTE]

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...46043018300030


http://www.dlgrma.qld.gov.au/resourc...d-aviation.pdf

Lookleft 29th Apr 2020 11:20


Keep calm and rational folks just like we expect on the flight deck.
Then right on cue comes this which is none of the above:


and the first services that will start post pandemic will be XXX - SYD.

This is some of what is at stake and why QF is not a national carrier. It is a Sydney carrier. It is critical to Australia’s recovery from the pandemic that QF not be allowed to funnel International pax via Sydney.

Sunfish 29th Apr 2020 11:26

The flight deck doesn’t get to make investment decisions thank goodness. The question of a loan to Virgin is, fortunately or unfortunately an economic argument. Furthermore there are competing schools of economic thought.


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