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-   -   Second Fake LAME Identifed (https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/361173-second-fake-lame-identifed.html)

Antisplash 16th Feb 2009 00:14

Once upon a time we worked in a fairytale world where engineers sat courses and passed the exams at the end, then through a magical process they were grantaed a licence. They weren't even considered for training unless they had proven to their manager that they had the "BASICS". Then took their result certs, Basics and Type to Tech Training with a cheque, had them verified and then Tech Training saw that CASA or CAA, or whatever they were called that week, processed the paperwork and produced a licence which went back through Tech Training and then to the Manpower Planner then to you. All those checks and balances produced a LAME whom you could confidently say was licenced. The Q got involved and then there were LAME Induction Courses to contol even more the process.
Sure it is hard to get but so it should be. I mean hard not impossibly stupid.
Now we have process that "dumbs down" the LAME what with Tow Training, PIC, Wing Walking, Oxy Cart Training, Towing Audits and the list goes on and on for what are BASIC LAME tasks. All this can be attributed to the fact that the "Manager" does NOT know the business or the people, has virtually no input into the operation and relies on a couple of "strike breaking suck holes" to do it for him. Both wanna b but with absolutely no clue.
Time to get rid of the lot and start again befor the cancer spreads.

Sorry to rant and digress but I can remember how good in many aspects it used to be and can still be.

Antisplash 16th Feb 2009 00:25

To Fed Sec

A little bird told me that CASA were in LA on a surprize visit a short time ago and that some of the "qualifications" are, to be kind, on that station were a little doubtful. CN was nowhere in sight and left it all to his releif to fend them off.
Any thoughts?

nut turner 16th Feb 2009 03:29

To go back a little further, when Qantas training was doled out to a very select few, their was still the opportunity to become licensed through self study. It still didn't matter as CASA ran the exams thenselves so when you applied for your license they had all the results already. You got a call to come for a chat were given your license then you went away to the licensing records clerk to get it put on the system, he sent it to payroll so you could get paid and it came back to you through the manpower planner. It was an open system for anyone to see, not to mention it was regularly printed off. Everyone was proud to show off their new licence, now its all cloak and dagger stuff, no one wants to show anyone because then everyone will know what level you are and what you are being paid. Time to go back to the old ways and be open with what you've got.

ALAEA Fed Sec 16th Feb 2009 09:22

Thnx for info AntiSplash.

Funny thing is I wrote to CASA last year about maint that was signed by an unqualified person. They wrote back saying that they would respond formally soon. I received that letter in October last year and no further response. No wonder we want to use the press to get these issues out there.

hadagutfull 16th Feb 2009 12:33

bring back the old /FOR LAME on the GDP!!!

The company is into all this self audit crap now.... why not self audit qualifications as well.

company_spy 19th Feb 2009 10:04

Fed Sec,

In a perfect world CASA would have a long hard look at the circus that is lax "base maintenance". Cox obviously wants to offshore the maintenance, but he should not be allowed to offshore quality and standards. Unfortunatly, as always, CASA is nowhere to be seen.....:rolleyes:

Ngineer 20th Feb 2009 06:40

We have been asked to supply a copy of our CASA licence along with a copy of our EQ competencies to our manager. What a joke! Why are they asking us for a copy of their own EQ records? Seems like the regular QF audit where no ones knows whats going on.

Checking credentials like this would not have prevented this incident from occuring, especially when you are giving the documents to a new DMM who would'nt know anyone in his new section from a bar of soap. There needs to be a full investigation and report on how incidents like these can happen in our workplace, and how to prevent this.

The wheels continue to fly off the caboose as we gather more speed, with no one at the wheel.

bring back the old /FOR LAME on the GDP!!!
When the LAME grade system was introduced (approx 1996/97), many people were peeved off because they realised that it was possible to have exactly the same qualifications as someone else yet be on a lower grade. (mainly because 767 and 737 licences would only attract single licence payments, and because new LAME's would possibly be locked out of the higher grades due to quotas put in place). As a result, the "/FOR LAME" system was eventually wound-up to stop people from comparing their qualifications with others on higher grades, and thus kicking up a stink.

BBJ flying spanner 20th Feb 2009 15:15

To my dear clipped,
Great union speech mate. I too am one LAME who wasted thousands of dollars on union fees to listen to utter rubbish from the spineless jellyfish association. One small comment is why are you wasting time on non member activities when members that are paying you to do a job are in need. The poor guy at the centre of this dispute at least has the brains not to be a member. This just shows what happens when the bean counters start running the show at QF. And what has the ALEA done about protecting the career paths of its members to avoid this sort of calamity. There was none of this in the 80s and 90s when the training school was run by LAMES. Just food for thought and good luck fellow LAMES you are going to need it.:ugh:

Hardworker 20th Feb 2009 21:55

Allow Invasion of Privacy
Question why do we all as LAME's have to allow Qantas incompetent Management access to our CASA records? A copy of our licence should be sufficient, as for EQ records, never received any training of that useless system, would not know how to or want to access QF's records, their system, they can obtain their information!

I dont see why anyone should have to allow QF information of your own records, its an open invitation to abuse. I beleive the ALAEA should ask what information QF wants and then the indiviuals can request CASA to Forward a copy of it to them and to QF, that way everyone know what information has been revealed, not an open invitation to any information.
It is apparrent that even with this information, it isnt being auditted by the training school where the staff their originally spotted the fake CASA Licence...
This problem is QF's EQ system, yet nothing is going to change, time a directive was that all LAME's Records be off EQ and held by the Training School, like it was orginally....
Its about time the ALAEA stipulated this to stop, the continued repetition almost every two moths of having to provide the same information to the incompetent management!

Clipped 20th Feb 2009 22:33

BBJ descend from your jet and come back to Earth. That 'union' speech was some time ago, unfortunately, it seems to have pressed a couple of your buttons.

My point with regards to the ALAEA is that the current organisation is working tirelessly on a range of issues covering LAMEs all over the country and doing a pretty fine job of it. The current climate is causing the aviation sector to evaluate their operations and I'm pretty sure that LAMEs out there will be in the firing line, at least there is an organisation that will take up their cause.

Personally I'm glad I contribute to the ALAEA, as on several occasions I've been able to turn to them for assistance when left out in the cold by my beloved management and they have always been helpful. I think the majority of LAMEs feel the same, obviously your case is different. You seemed to have done well without being a member, good luck to you out there. For the majority of us, being organised has it's benefits.

tjc 21st Feb 2009 01:50

It has been mentioned by QF management that this latest QF audit process has the support of the ALAEA.

Is this true?

ALAEA Fed Sec 21st Feb 2009 03:26

support? not sure about that.

We are advising our members that there is no problem signing the forms. We have not said that the latest audit is the answer to the problem.

tjc 21st Feb 2009 04:16

Thanks Fed Sec.

Maybe the process may assist, but I dont think that this is the only answer to the problem too. Then again I dont know what the solution is either.

I know for a fact that QF looses records and I know for a fact that CASA looses records.

I pity the poor LAME attempting to get on their feet, trying to defend themselves at the request of QF and CASA and loosing out through the over complicated processes, with them trying to find scapegoats.

I hope everyone out there has kept those hard copy records for themselves!

You may need them!

Hardworker 21st Feb 2009 07:36

Which brings me back to the point of why are the LAME's required to allow management access to their information?
All QF has to do is send a copy of their records and staff names to CASA to confirm what Qualifications are there...
It seems again that nothing is going to change, not the management that allowed this to happen or the current self audit of the crap EQ system...
I am surprised CASa isnt asking for a better method, but then again management keep continuing to tell giant porkies!
I wonder what the legal point is if you refuse to allow QF to grant access to CASA's records of your details?

duderanch 21st Feb 2009 15:22

How the hell do you stop someone from posing as a Lame who is willing to take that resposibility and not get paid for it. He did a Qf course then didn't complete his basics apparantly. WTF ! Even if we had the /for lame system he might of been picked up but only from some jealous :mad: who can't mind his own business not by Qf. So what I have to show my license, I've got nothin to hide.Its laughable to see the useless measures our management have come up with. The only one to blame here is the idiot who did this. I can't see how this could have been prevented because who would ever think not 1 but 2 people would ever do this.

And to BBJ flying spanner
Why are you taking a swipe at the union for. Oh I see by your previous posts you left in 2003. I can understand why you must hate the ALAEA- the previous exec- understandable I wasted my money back then too, definitely not now though. And as you now work contracts overseas in those great MRO establishments as you say please do dual certs on the flight controls cause they aint happening and remember to put washers under the engine mount bolts. You must be proud of their work. Oh thats right you don't see their work when your sitting in an office signing cards off for the 15 or so workers in your crew. Thanks for :mad:ing our planes.
Nice try.

Ngineer 21st Feb 2009 23:32

It's strange that CASA has given the responsibility to investigate this to Qf, as they are the root cause of the problem. You can't fix a broken tool with a broken tool.

However, who else could investigate and find a solution? CASA maybe? I think not. I remember the days when I frequently saw CAA reps come for a walk around the jet base. Those are very distant memories.

Short_Circuit 21st Feb 2009 23:36

I see a simple solution to the problem,
Stop the Buggery Campaign with Engineer training and actually train on types we work on.
After all, aren't all cabin crew trained on their types. Aren't Flight crew trained on their type.
Why not train engineers on type? :ugh:
A bonus is a LAME can often produce twice the work output as an AME (purely from knowledge & confidence) without the need of supervision.

empire4 22nd Feb 2009 02:57


please don't throw stones when you live in a glass house. You havn't been to avalon have you? Some of the worst practices i have seen are out of QF facility called avalon. you should look in your own back yard before you start slinging crap around. Have you even worked overseas? probably not.


The root problem here is that we have a system allowing people, 2 of them maybe more to sign work they are not qualified to do so. The management that have repeatedly assured the public that they are safe have failed again, and are still going to fail. CASA is a joke these days, only caring about bottom line on the balance sheet. the problems will continue.

company_spy 23rd Feb 2009 09:06

empire 4, one cannot associate Avalon (or Brisbane for that matter) with what was once phase check in Sydney. Unfortunatly Avalon is just another MRO, just like all the other ones out there, linked to Qantas in name only.........

Bumpfoh 23rd Feb 2009 22:41


Which brings me back to the point of why are the LAME's required to allow management access to their information?
All QF has to do is send a copy of their records and staff names to CASA to confirm what Qualifications are there...
No need for QF to gain permission from you to see your CASA personal info.

Would it not be easier for each and every LAME to set up their CASA portal, at work if you so desire, and then you can show the ball-bag manager in real time after you have logged in, all the relevent qualifications/endorsements you have against your ARN which should read the same as your hard copy licence.:ok:

That way you stay in control of what QF are able to see.

If CASA's records are up the sh1t then god help us all.:ugh:

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