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-   -   Second Fake LAME Identifed (https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/361173-second-fake-lame-identifed.html)

tjc 10th Feb 2009 01:48

Lets face it.....a certain CEO, Board and 'Yes Men' Managers have left QF in such a state that this is one of the many outcomes of their 'sustainable future' or should I say 'cost cutting' program.

QF used to be a 'bench mark' in all aspects of running an airline and set 'standards'....now we are just 'another airline'.

What will the future hold.......?

Clipped 10th Feb 2009 03:15


The ALEA seem like a joke to me. God help me if my union treats me like this when I need some support for a situation
I would suggest that a majority of LAMEs in Oz have a great faith in the ALAEA. With the track records of aviation management in this country you should feel privileged that there is one organisation that will stand with you under difficult circumstances. Of course, unless you have a 'special' relationship with the office dwellers.

I'm unsure why you have directed your anger toward the ALAEA where it is quite clear that this sorry saga is directly the fault of the regulator, Qantas 'mismanagement' and certainly the certifier.

dr skydrol 10th Feb 2009 04:56

The ALAEA seem like a joke to me. God help me if my union treats me like this when I need some support for a situation

The guy is not a member of the union which asks the question why not. Is he not really a Lame or is he one of those :mad: who stood in the background and then put his hand out for the spoils when everyone else did the hard yards.
Sounds like an idiot both ways.
Good bloke or not, it was his types not being in our union that could have undermined us during PIA if there was enough of them. My family says :mad: you whatever the outcome.

domo 10th Feb 2009 07:20

Lets see how it all pans out, I know the bloke and like him, I hope he has not done what it is said that he has done. from what I heard he had all his basics and was put on a company type course which he passed. The rest is cloudy I wish him the best and hope what was said is not true.

empire4 10th Feb 2009 08:14

to fed sec,

i would like to see some proactive response from the association and QF management after these 2 latest incidents, and highlight the holes in the system that allows such thing to take place. Why don't QF have controlled stamps for LAME's ? Why do management not take any blame ?

If this has happened twice, (which may i remind everyone is purely speculation at this point) then surely MANAGEMENT need to have a good hard look at themselves after Checking EVERYONE post tim mccormack.

maybe they should check managers certs aswell!

ALAEA Fed Sec 10th Feb 2009 10:11

Thank you for the idea regarding solutions Empire. We have a number of meetings tentatively organised over the next week to discuss this and several other maintenance issues. They are with -

Next Monday - Gavin Harris
this thu his boss - David Cox
next Mon also his boss - Lyell Strambri
also Monday some people from QA

any ideas for solutions to any maintenance problems can be posted or you can send me a pm.

griffin one 10th Feb 2009 10:15

Once again an individual has been openly slandered by not only the company he works for, But by his said ops managers and media alike.
I hope for glens sake it is nothing more then a witch hunt and due recompence is forthwith.
Should casa not have all the information readily available of every lame who puts pen to paper, Should they not be able to punch his/her name into a data base and identify all credentials ?
To openly denegrate an individual is a travesty.
I for one will be signing my next licence renewal donald duck. Nowhere does it state i have to sign a name,Should we not all pick cartoon characters as the swiss cheese model due cost cutting is aligned and awaiting an arrow.

what a f:mad:ing circus

the rim 10th Feb 2009 16:29

upperlobe is correct too many layers removed to cut costs .....ALAEA FED SEC you must insist that all training records go back to to the tech school and local admin offices as this will sort out the fakes from the rest ...these people knew the system before they were got rid of to save money now we have this major embarrasement out in the open .....i dont know this guy but from reading what's on here he has passed all requirements for the licence but may not have it on his QF EQ which brings me to another subject .....EQ what a waste of time and money if we as LAME's did something like this in our job questions would be asked but now you can go on line do a course [even short cut] then pass what a joke sorry to go on a bit but had to get if off my chest ....

fordran 10th Feb 2009 19:01

Should casa not have all the information readily available of every lame who puts pen to paper, Should they not be able to punch his/her name into a data base and identify all credentials ?
Apparently they did and his name didn't come up. Hence the directions from CASA where he is named using his arn number. Have you ever considered that this guy may be guilty?

employes perspective 10th Feb 2009 19:44

where did this guy do his type training Qantas or some outside training org.if outside then he is not qualified to sign for Qantas aircraft fullstop(and he is also trying to jump the training queue )

domo 10th Feb 2009 20:34

[QUOTE]I for one will be signing my next licence renewal donald duck./QUOTE]

Thats fine just remember to sign all you work donald duck with the same signature as in the licence book and dont foget your licence number

Sunfish 10th Feb 2009 21:20

I think you are all missing the point completely.

The reason there is an investigation and directions from CASA is because QANTAS DOES'NT KNOW who is qualified for what, and what they have signed for. It's cut so far that it has started losing part of its organisational memory, and that is why this situation, whatever it is, was allowed to develop.

That is the issue, QANTAS DOES NOT KNOW! Now the reason I've bolded and capitalised that statement, is that Qantas, as an airline operator, is supposed to have systems in place to guarantee the quality of it's maintenance and overhaul work, and that extends from your licences right down to the calibration of various tools, let alone traceability etc.

To put it another way, the fact that the issue, whatever it is, could potentially involve work over Two years old means that QF have no effing idea.

The obvious question CASA should be asking is "What else is there that Qantas should know, but does'nt know?"

And for good measure, the reason Ansett's AOC was pulled was not because of a crack, but because investigations determined that AN's maintenance system could not guarantee that the minimum required work was being done - and for the same reason - cut costs and fire people - lose organisational memory.

nut turner 10th Feb 2009 21:20

EP, he didn’t jump the training queue, he did a Qantas course several years ago, why he doesn’t hold the license is anyone’s guess. As it appears he has been sacked, what will happen to him now is the big question.

duderanch 10th Feb 2009 21:34

Not on the Casa database -Strange.
Not a member of the ALAEA - Strange again.
Not on EQ - Very Strange and he shouldn't then have been signing anyway.

Whilst I'd like to think this couldn't happen again things just don't add up. Has anyone seen the front of his payslip? Does it say AME or LAME. That will answer everything.

airsupport 11th Feb 2009 03:46

Could someone please (politely) explain to me how this happens?

As an LAME for more than 30 years, though never with Qantas, I just cannot see how this can happen, IF these people are qualified LAMEs on certain types, then CASA should have records for those endorsements, whether or not Qantas do as well.

I have had numerous endorsements over the years, after doing courses and training both in Australia and Overseas, but in all cases CASA ultimately approved the courses and training (sometimes reluctantly) and then issue the endorsements.

Why is Qantas so different? (sensible answers PLEASE. ;) )

empire4 11th Feb 2009 04:14


here are a few answer. QF has got its approved courses, as does JTP and so forth. when you do a outside course and you have obtained your licence you run off to training and HR and they make you a LAME. Now more than ever QF is runnning on trust that the little red book supplied is real, that what you say is the truth. I don't know if you still can but tim mccormack got his LAME uniform without being a LAME. I got mine whilst waiting for HR to update my details after i got my casa licence. there are apprentices runnning round with lame jumpers!! So everyone assumes you have a licence when you wear the shirt, and everyone knows that you did a company course.

Both these incidents have been from COMPANY courses. NO one acctually calls casa and asks. QF could have loads more in the same situation.

I'm not sure how your employer controls there approvals, but having done a stint overseas other EASA approved airlines use a controlled stamp. QF has NO control. And then of course you have managers who made public statements that ALL QF LAMES had BEEN checked and obviously never were. hope this answers a few Q's

airsupport 11th Feb 2009 04:34


Thank you for your detailed and polite ;) reply.

It MUST be a Qantas thing, as I said I never worked for Qantas but 5 other Operators over the years, and I have never heard of such things happening, OR judging someone's qualifications by what clothes they wear.

It seems to me Qantas doing it all in house is the main problem.

As I said before I have done numerous courses and OJT here and at places like Boeing and Douglas etc, but always the Operator has had no direct input into my being given an endorsement or not, other than often trying to expedite it, it has always been purely up to CASA (and their various previous entities).


Clipped 11th Feb 2009 04:40


I'll try to keep it as simple as possible as perhaps non-LAMEs are perusing the forum topic.

You do your required dozen or so basic exams for CASA. Big bucks and alot of time.

You do a CASA approved aircraft specific type course. Inhouse or external.

You complete the required practical training logbook. Time, lots of it.

You submit it to CASA ($) and when they get around to it and are satisfied that you have met all their requirements you are then issued with a rating for that aircraft/engine type on your licence. You are now technically ready to certify accordingly.

Now comes then interesting bit. You take your new rating to QF, in this case, and the training dept looks over it and compiles a list of outstanding, bridging, airline specific, documentation procedures, human factor courses etc etc that you need to complete before you can certify for this new rating you acquired. This process can literally take months and I've heard years to complete. When completed all this 'stuff' is again checked by the training dept and QA and your rating is listed onto a computerised system, eQ.

Now you can begin certifying.

Qantas has used this ability to withhold these courses from individuals to limit the number of ratings they need to pay for. So guys spend all this time (hundreds of hours) and money ($thousands) then navigating an administration nightmare before they reach that goal. So the airline is now empowered with who can be a LAME or not, regardless of you having the CASA issued licence. Perhaps, just perhaps, some get a little impatient.

I may have missed a couple of processes in this rant. Please feel free to fill in the blanks.

airsupport 11th Feb 2009 04:52


Okay, I was with you right up until "now comes the interesting bit".

It must be a Qantas thing AND problem, I have never experienced such business as you describe after "now comes the interesting bit" thankfully at ANY other Operator, the ONLY reason they would even see it normally is so we would get paid for it. ;)


Socket 11th Feb 2009 04:56


I think you may have misunderstood. CASA issues the Licence whether you have done a company course or you have done it off your own back through some outside entity.

That licence does not automatically grant you the right to certify for maintenance on the company aircraft you hold the licence on. The company must approve you to do that.

Most other companies have a system in place that vets prospective approval holders ( licence checks etc..) and when satisfied that you qualify AND if they feel the need for another approval holder ( $$$) they will grant the approval and usually issue you with a QA controlled stamp.

Qantas for whatever reason dont issue controlled stamps, they seem to rely on that obviously far superior and infinitly more reliable method of giving you a different jumper.

Now obviously there will be no traceabiliy problem with the jumper approval system or Qantas wouldnt have gone that way, but I cant figure out how you are supposed to use a jumper in the certification process. Maybe it has marked microfibres that adhere to the documentation when you sign.

Reading between the lines it looks like this guy has either got the licence and is not yet company approved, or has his basics and course but not the licence or approval.

Just guessing but I reckon its probably the former and he was just trying to be helpful and got shafted for it.

If so he's a silly bugger.From what I have seen and heard of QE for the last few years sticking your neck out is an invitation for a lot of these 'managers' to chop it off.

Sorry clipped you beat me to it and said it better

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