Could be in the vicinity of 20% sacrifice to base salary just for this year alone. Pretty big gamble this time round considering the majority of the J* troops have excepted little more then 3% in last 2 EBA,s and now the company is under no obligation to talk till 2nd half of the year.

I have voted previous EBA,s down when the majority thought they were acceptable. This EBA has offered more than anything previously and am shocked that it didn't get up. The JPA have negoiated hard in good faith. As JPA members have stated the market ultimately set the standard. J* has had virtually no pilot's leave, Tiger has entered the market with worst pay and conditions and crewing planes no problem. No shortage of applicants for J* positions.
Still a lot of Ex Ansett types overseas just starting to get their various grat payments and contracts coming up for renewal with mortgage free homes back in oz wanting to come back.
Further delays of 787 and greater than 50% chance of market slow down worldwide in next 18months.

One big bluff and from what I can see company holding all the Aces.

Well, you're definitely not living on the same planet I'm living on, having been told of numerous occasions involving J* flight cancellations due lack of crew. Also, maybe you'd like to enlighten us on the minimum experience J* have been accepting for both application, and command? Likewise with Tiger?

There are not many airlines holding aces at the moment. I hope you don't play poker. Getting you to fold appears pretty easy.

Minimum Pay
 

$169,000 for 816 hours per year, then $207 per hour there after.
12 days off in 28 day roster
$1000 min to work a day off
$2500 for loss of licence

This is the minimum pay offer we should accept as per Virgin & Tiger which earns more than us.

Maybe you live on a different planet to the rest of us. My sources tell me that no flights at J* have been cancelled as a result of lack of tech crew. Certainly some flights have been cancelled due wx disruptions and an inability to launch with standby crew due to curfew requirements. "Flights being cancelled" is merely propoganda being spread by the "pilot shortage" brigade, more wishfull thinking than fact.

It will be interesting to see which party plays better poker later this year.

Hey Tool.

Why are QF 737 operating services on Wet lease to Jetstar?

Good job on the No vote fellas...

Oh, as for the previous remarks, I have flown scheduled Jetstar services in the 737 for 2 days since Xmas, carrying Jetstar passengers to Jetstar destinations using Jetstar callsigns. Nothing unusual about the operation as they were to "leisure" destinations that dont clash with Qf (Hobart, Cooly, Cairns) :ugh: When queried why was told "lack of staff and equipment"

However, the disturbing thing is that they were on my roster the whole month, rather than a late change of plan.

Stick with it, good to see the Eba knockback..:D

There is a lot of negative crap on here. The industry thanks all of you who voted no. Yep you've stirred up the hornets nest and the company will throw the shadow of uncertainty. This is the start of J* pilots clawing back lost ground. Well done.

No pilot shortage - hahahhahahhaha. Look at the amount of airframes purchased world wide. US in trouble financially maybe, the flow on won't be catastrophic to the world economies and the airframes have been purchased all over the world. The world needs sh!t loads of pilots.

Good on J* pilots - keep the good fight - you are worth no less than what virgin got and that needs to look at pay vs time at work etc.
J* pilots:ok:

I can answer that one. It is because the 3 A320 aircraft that were scheduled to be in service for the Christmas rush were delayed for reasons beyond J*'s control. So as High n Mighty said "lack of equipment" not tech crew is the answer.

I have got to say I never cease to be amazed when pilots (who know absolutely everything about running an airline) constantly quote "crew shortage" yet managemant (who know nothing about running an airline) disagree but said airline continues to operate. Safely, profitably, continually.

Why is that?

Yoiu should be aiming above the T and C's at VB, people. There is never going to be a better time than now.

Message To Joyce,westaway &co
 

Previous Expierence Tells Me That When Your Staff Moral Drops So Do Your Profits,costs Escalate, Delays Increase Aircraft Suddenly Require More Maintenance.don't Waste Any Human Capital You May Have, Show Some Leadership, After All You Are Going To Be Attacked From The Bottom By Tiger And Lion Air,possibly Asia X,you Are Going To Need All The Cooperation You Can Get To Keep Jetstar Viable.a Look At The Previous Sucessful Leaders In This Industry Might Give You A Clue

Me,long Since Retired

'$2500 loss of licence'

Is that not $250,000?

$2500 is surely a typo? What can you do with that? even $250,000 is not much for loss of a career.

Mat Finish
never a shiny moment..:suspect:

It is so good to see just exactly how many people from such disparite backgrounds, not to mention all of AIPA, are putting their hopes for a good future (not to mention world peace, end to poverty and AIDS etc) on the Jetstar pilot body. What a vote of confidence in those pilots that the entire future of Australia piloting rests on their intestinal fortitude. I am moved to quote Churchill: "Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few".

Since the JQ pilots will now be significantly underpaid for probably a year (much more if there's any downturn in the next year), would some of those cheering from the sidelines kick in with a levy to top up the salaries of the "Few"?

$500 a month from each Qantas pilot toward the JQ salary bill would really be a show of solidarity. Any takers? It doesn't affect me but I would,as an act of solidarity, kick in my share if AIPA starts a fund and publishes the bank a/c details.

Hey Genex, ever looked at the pay of the Dash drivers? If you're going to chip in - I think they could use some as well............ F/O's mid 40's
Capt's low 80"s F/A's low 30's........Work just as hard if not harder than mainline - Don't make the same mistake you made with the Jetstar guys:=

$2500 is about right as an annual premium for $500,000 coverage of loss of licence insurance. if under 30 yo, your premium is around $1200

Genex,
I voted NO and I knew and was willing to take the 15k hit this year.
I do not expect anyone to subsidise my wage, IT IS MY CHOICE.
I have done my part but not expect me to take anymore financial hits unless the rest of the industry will.

The question that needs to be answered by the people so in favour of voting YES, is;

"why did J* want to lock in this deal for 5 years, nearly 1 year before its due?"

I am interested in hearing some answers to this one.

(Chimbu, how did you come up with the 210 - 220K figure for an A320 Capt? I heard it was a base of 145K plus extras. 65 - 75K of "extras" per year??)

I thought the JetStar F/O's would be mighty relieved with the result, No South African Instant captains coming to take your upgrade away.
They now have to be employed under the present Terms, wonder how many will take the move now?

Wrong
 

Wrong - Now the South African Dec's will be recruited onto AWA's, most likely on the proposed EBA 4 conditions.

Jetstar management made it abundantly clear, they proposed the new EBA as a result of pilot discontent over AWA's. Now that they have been told by the pilots to to F&*k off, there is no stopping the AWA's, unless of course the government changes its mind.

AFAP you must be joking
 

Obviously the AFAP severely misread the Jetstar vote outcome.

After the recent result I understand that they intend on writing to Jetstar management offerring to renegotiate EBA 4.

Only problem is;

There is NO bargaining period
The present EBA runs until August
Management stated they will not renegotiate until later this year
Management intend on keeping their word.
AIPA - what role should they have?

:ugh::ugh::ugh:

There is no way I can see management returning to the table until they have to. So stop creating false hope Lawrie Cox & co.

In the mean time - stop jerking around and get with AIPA, JPA etc and put an end to the turf wars which are enveloping the Jetstar pilot group.

I take it then, that you are implying that there is a plentiful supply of pilots everywhere. No shortage of recruits. No reduction in experience requirements to keep the flow up.

OK, I completely retract the "another planet" statement, and change it to "another parallel universe where reality runs backwards".

And there is of course no "propaganda" being spread by JQ or QF Management, who are all fine upstanding honest citizens when it comes to making statements about their Company's performance, aren't they?;)

Well VH-JJW they had better hurry and sign them up before the next sitting of Parliament hadn't they.
Tick Tock, times running out for the Dixon Plan!:}

Not at all. All my point was is that Jetstar is not cancelling flights for lack of tech crew, in spite of posts to that effect.

Jetstar, like Qantas and VB, still has a supply of pilots willing to join. If that should change there are still a number of things they could do to extend that supply, including reviewing past applicants who may not have made a particular score in the psyc assessment, or perhaps looking at older experienced turboprop drivers who don't yet have jet experience. Imagine if J* offerred to provide the type rating to current VB drivers at no cost. I think it would cause a stampede.

There is a pilot shortage, there is a lower experience base in Australia at this time but there is not yet a shortage of pilots at Jetstar.

TurbTool, what makes u think that VB pilots would stampeded across to J*?

Not saying they wouldnt but dont know why they would. Can u give some insight?

A number that I know have had enough of constant overnights, long duty hours compared to flight time, long time away from family. A number are now quite experienced fos with no prospect of a B737 Command in their base for some time. Others just would like a choice of somewhere to live other than the big 3, SYD, BNE or MEL. Some like the idea of progressing to widebody international ops. there are quite a few good reasons. The requirement to buy an A320 endorsement is a bit of a stumbling block.

As always talk in the bar about being unhappy goes along the lines of " I'm not happy that I am doing overnights because the wife isn't happy etc" Then in the next breath "but I need the allowances I get on the overnights because the wife spends all of my salary" . Most guys consider the allowances as part of their ongoing salary so taking a Jetstar domestic position is usually a but of a fall in pay which most pilots won't do. Makes for great conversation but I doubt that a lot of guys would jump if the endorsements were salary sacrificed or bonded ( which would be the last thing the irish gnome would want as it will impact the bottom line). The only time it will come into effect is before a pilot accepts a position with VB or Jetstar.

Ummmmmm


hahahahhahahahhahahhahahaha
Stampede.... stop it, it hurts

Jet* "revised" EBA offer
 

Heard yesterday that Alan Joyce has gone against his word :rolleyes: and a tweeked EBA offer will soon be put to the divided pilot group.

So Chimbu Chuckles, given you said

and

will you now admit you were wrong (if my info proves correct) and accept that Jet* management are desperate to lock their pilots in to a substandard deal given the reality of a worldwide shortage of suitably qualified crew?


Fellow Jet* colleagues. before you vote again please first attend the AIPA roadshows coming to your respective bases around the 25th.

Information and solidarity is strength. What have you got to lose?

Its the same agreement rolled in sugar, to be voted on before the end of workchoices:yuk:

Chimbu, genex and Fistfokker, well played....NOT! :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

You must be related to that half wit brother of the ex-AIPA president who had remarkably similar predictions for the QF Short haul guys, they didn't listen and sent it back twice. The third offer was MUCH better.

If it's not a LOT better then be prepared to send it back again guys! Good Luck.

Well Played?

The game is not over yet...it's only half time. The second half is going to be genuinely fascinating.

EBA 4 has not changed in any meaningful way but for the sake of pilot unity people who may have voted differently if they knew THEN what they know NOW are being given a second chance.

I think the J* management are to be applauded for their decision to allow the J* pilot body this opportunity.

If it goes down again no one at J* is under any illusions as to what will happen next.

Just an observation guys, when was the last time management, any management, attempted to bring forward an EBA negotiation? And correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the proposal for 5 years!

Captcloudbuster is right. To allow yourselves to be rushed into an agreement at the behest of management, really should, and I may say has, set the alarm bells ringing. Airline managements all over the world know what's coming, and they probably have only 2 choices.

• Actively attract and retain professional pilots by offering superior Terms and Conditions.
• Seek to have the substandard Terms and Conditions of the recent past, enshrined in a long term contract.

Which one do you think Jet* management are embarking upon?

Here's my best guess Chimbu

There is a shortage of qualified FO's available for immediate upgrade within J*'s own ranks to fill the planned expansion.

The current terms and conditions of employment are substandard.

These facts combined ensure - J* management need this EBA to get up yesterday to attract direct entry captains:eek:

Julia Gillard will be unlikely to approve the use of 457 visas.

If we act together

The Qantas Group will be forced to negotiate out of commercial necessity with QANTAS Group Pilots:ok:

Chumbu,

I seem to recall that you said a couple of weeks ago there will be no return to the table by management and that the JQ pilots had fecked up..

I have not seen anything that has indicated a revised eba4, if there is which you seem to think so, where do you hear this?

Also, if this has happened and it's has not greatly improved I can't see it getting up.

"Julia Gillard will be unlikely to approve the use of 457 visas".
They aready have - :}

Cloudbuster how do your J* colleagues fit into the AIPA grand plan as outlined in the last two AIPA newsletters?

As I read it AIPA is adamant that ALL 787s will be flown by mainline with J* 'allowed' to operate a diminishing fleet of A330s.

So how does that support AIPA's claims of protecting/enhancing the careers of ALL QF group pilots?

Some weeks ago I suggested that J* management would not rush back to the table with a BETTER offer if EBA 4 was voted down. I stand by that position.

I have heard on the grape vine that a significant number of J* pilots were considering accepting AWAs on EBA 4 T*Cs. I have further heard that some J* pilots may have voted differently had they understood that was a possible outcome.

Perhaps, JUST perhaps, J* management is considering that before going down the AWA path a revote may deliver a better outcome for all parties.

Seems that dear old Chimbu isn't as up front as he ought to be?

If Ppruners can get hold of two issues AIPA Insights dear old Chimbu refers to, the closest one can find to Chimbu's claim that "AIPA is adamant that ALL 787s will be flown by mainline with J* 'allowed' to operate a diminishing fleet of A330s", is:

"The future of Australian aviation is probably all about global mega carriers, the B787 and Qantas having sufficient pilots to flexibly crew all 115 of them. As I see it, either the Group Opportunity Allocation List (GOAL) is created as soon as possible or ultimately Qantas Mainline flies all the B787s and Qantas Jetstar all the A330s while QantasLink scales back until the global aviation industry stops exponentially growing."

Seems to an innocent bystander that AIPA's President is saying that the future prosperity of the Qantas Group is about unity and flexibility - not divide and conquer?:D

Chimbu, another PPRUNER with a chip on his shoulder.....:hmm:

No chip here...I simply hold a different, perhaps more realistic, view...only time will tell.

Chim, another comment written by the AIPA president in a different forum....

Pretty clear there I reckon.

G Cantstandya

If you read the first post on this topic you will probably see where somebody (Chimbu) might have gleaned that info. Don't forget it is a rumour network.