Aviation’s Future. Navy blue singlets, thongs, and hankies tied around your head?
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Australia
Posts: 52
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
NG - I think you should have said "Last Post" and not Final Post.
Lots of responses attacking "greed", and yet if that is the only take away that most of you have from this excellent posting by Wiley, then you have completely missed the context of the conversation.
Over the years that I have been in aviation pilot salaries have gone from extraordinary heights to somewhere close to mediocrity - the fact that salary levels are inconsistent across airlines virtually prooves the point that downsizing pilot salary is not re-aligning them with their actual worth, but moreover "how much can we take out of these guys/gals".
The bigger issue in your profession is that management look at the cost of the pilot as a target for savings, rather than identifying an appropriate salary for responsibility. They would, quite literally, get you down to clerical levels if they could. The greatest concern is that no-one in this industry has determined a minimum acceptable salary for a pilot. Until someone drawers that line then the lot of a pilot will only get worse. When management look at an aircraft term sheet they know that they can haggle and bargain to get a good rate - an appropriate rate. They also understand that that will only fall so far. When they look at a pilot salary they don't see any level that they cannot fall below.
The comments of D-Rate and NG actually point the finger at the career pilot for having been so greedy that commercial airlines could not survive. That is just so much bull****. It is the likes of D-Rate and NG who misinterpret high salaries as greed, when in fact they are a just reward. D-Rate - the reason that you are living in a declining system is because you are letting it decline, not because of someone else's greed.
Pilots can quite rightly feel abused that their salaries are quickly falling to the same level as a baggage loader - someone explain to me how that is appropriate. It isn't and is testimony to the issues created by the likes of NG and D Rate who consider salary as secondary to getting a seat in a commercial jet.
For all the guys in GA - your lot is only going to get worse. As commercial jet pilot salaries fall the knock-on effect is that your own seats will be devalued.
NG and D-Rate stop looking out the cockpit window and start looking at the guys that are on your back giving you a damn good rodgering - one day you'll ask yourself - "why does my arse hurt so much".
Lots of responses attacking "greed", and yet if that is the only take away that most of you have from this excellent posting by Wiley, then you have completely missed the context of the conversation.
Over the years that I have been in aviation pilot salaries have gone from extraordinary heights to somewhere close to mediocrity - the fact that salary levels are inconsistent across airlines virtually prooves the point that downsizing pilot salary is not re-aligning them with their actual worth, but moreover "how much can we take out of these guys/gals".
The bigger issue in your profession is that management look at the cost of the pilot as a target for savings, rather than identifying an appropriate salary for responsibility. They would, quite literally, get you down to clerical levels if they could. The greatest concern is that no-one in this industry has determined a minimum acceptable salary for a pilot. Until someone drawers that line then the lot of a pilot will only get worse. When management look at an aircraft term sheet they know that they can haggle and bargain to get a good rate - an appropriate rate. They also understand that that will only fall so far. When they look at a pilot salary they don't see any level that they cannot fall below.
The comments of D-Rate and NG actually point the finger at the career pilot for having been so greedy that commercial airlines could not survive. That is just so much bull****. It is the likes of D-Rate and NG who misinterpret high salaries as greed, when in fact they are a just reward. D-Rate - the reason that you are living in a declining system is because you are letting it decline, not because of someone else's greed.
Pilots can quite rightly feel abused that their salaries are quickly falling to the same level as a baggage loader - someone explain to me how that is appropriate. It isn't and is testimony to the issues created by the likes of NG and D Rate who consider salary as secondary to getting a seat in a commercial jet.
For all the guys in GA - your lot is only going to get worse. As commercial jet pilot salaries fall the knock-on effect is that your own seats will be devalued.
NG and D-Rate stop looking out the cockpit window and start looking at the guys that are on your back giving you a damn good rodgering - one day you'll ask yourself - "why does my arse hurt so much".
Guest
Posts: n/a
D-Rate, I feeel sorry for you and your 'generation'. You inherit a difficult world. However those that you blame for society's ills are more than likely to be victims. The culprit is not the baby boomer generation, it is big business and the govt. These two groups have worked hand in glove for years to gradually erode the conditions of employees in all western countries. The social demographic regarding the distribution of wealth has changed in a most frightining way over the last 20 years. The middle-class is being slowly disempowered and impoverished, the poor are getting access to less and less and being required to contribute more and more. The wealthiest 5% of Australia are owning a larger chunk of the national cake and making money like never before. Sucessive Australian govts. (ALP and Lib/NP) have allowed the casualisation of the workplace; a practice that business finds convienient but is another factor in degrading the quality of life for workers. (ie; A 6 hour shift is as much of a working day as 8 hrs but a 6 day working week only gives 36hrs pay usually with no penalties). The destruction of Ansett is a case in point; The Australian govt and big business seized an opportunity to get rid of a large unionised company and thus be in a position to put pressure on conditions throughout the aviation industry. It's as simple as that. Globalisation is another means to strike at middle Australia. My opinion is that conditions in all industries, not just aviation, will get worse, not better.
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Middle East
Posts: 98
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
NG, I live in a third world country. Workers have few rights, low pay, awful working conditions and sometimes quite literally die on the job. But they sure are cheap to employ!
Your (and my) children will be competing with them one day soon!
Your (and my) children will be competing with them one day soon!
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Posts: 116
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
AHHH YES.... I have the image in my head now of Leonardo di Caprio strolling down the street in his stolen pilot's uniform....
Little Girl:
"hey Mister, are you a pilot?"
di Caprio: "Yes little Miss, I surely am"
Those were the days, eh?
Now the glamour of the industry has surely gone, as I witnessed last year at a major American hub where I saw 5 or 6 pilots lining up at the terminal's McDonald's outlet.
Rolf got it right, gov't and big business have slowly stripped the salaries of every worker. And all the while selling off the Family Jewels. Don't get me started on that! Look at Commonwealth Bank, Telstra, various airports, Qantas etc.
The Manager's job is simple, to make dividends for the share- holder. And if the manager did it this year, then why can't they increase it next year?
Don't forget that flight crew are the airlines highest cost centre (apart from fuel) so we will always be in the firing line
Most days I can't wait to get to work (MOST, lets face it who loves those 5:30 am starts when its persisting down). But each month I'm expected to do more and more.
Like peace, we must have eternal vigilance
And Another Thing...
This is world wide. Just read Michael Moore's book "Stupid White Men" on the conditions commuter pilots have to work for in the USA. You will be shocked!
Little Girl:
"hey Mister, are you a pilot?"
di Caprio: "Yes little Miss, I surely am"
Those were the days, eh?
Now the glamour of the industry has surely gone, as I witnessed last year at a major American hub where I saw 5 or 6 pilots lining up at the terminal's McDonald's outlet.
Rolf got it right, gov't and big business have slowly stripped the salaries of every worker. And all the while selling off the Family Jewels. Don't get me started on that! Look at Commonwealth Bank, Telstra, various airports, Qantas etc.
The Manager's job is simple, to make dividends for the share- holder. And if the manager did it this year, then why can't they increase it next year?
Don't forget that flight crew are the airlines highest cost centre (apart from fuel) so we will always be in the firing line
Most days I can't wait to get to work (MOST, lets face it who loves those 5:30 am starts when its persisting down). But each month I'm expected to do more and more.
Like peace, we must have eternal vigilance
And Another Thing...
This is world wide. Just read Michael Moore's book "Stupid White Men" on the conditions commuter pilots have to work for in the USA. You will be shocked!
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Simpson Desert
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
M1 - Your assertion that flight crew are the highest cost in the airline operation is wide of the mark, and I think an assumption on your part.
In simple terms, let's say the hourly cost of a Captain and F/O is $225. On a route MEL/SYD 1:20 so the cost for the two is $325.
They operate an aircraft with 150 pax in a 200 seat config: 75% load factor.
The cost in each ticket for the two pilots is $2.17.
The ticket costs the aerial punter what? $100? $150? If it is $100, and I doubt many are sold at that fare, it is (obviously) 2.17%. If it is $150, it becomes 1.44% of the fare.
The balance, 97.83% or more goes to the rest of the company, of which the vast proportion is labour.
None of the rest of the takers has to undergo the training or checking regimes the two guys who take 2.17% do.
None has invested the vast sums it costs to get to first base.
To reiterate other posters, until and unless pilots get hit with the magic bolt, realise that united they stand and divided they will continue to fall, then that $2.17 will soon be $0.17, and even a navy blue singlet, a pair of thongs, and a handkerchief tied at the four corners will be out of reach.
In simple terms, let's say the hourly cost of a Captain and F/O is $225. On a route MEL/SYD 1:20 so the cost for the two is $325.
They operate an aircraft with 150 pax in a 200 seat config: 75% load factor.
The cost in each ticket for the two pilots is $2.17.
The ticket costs the aerial punter what? $100? $150? If it is $100, and I doubt many are sold at that fare, it is (obviously) 2.17%. If it is $150, it becomes 1.44% of the fare.
The balance, 97.83% or more goes to the rest of the company, of which the vast proportion is labour.
None of the rest of the takers has to undergo the training or checking regimes the two guys who take 2.17% do.
None has invested the vast sums it costs to get to first base.
To reiterate other posters, until and unless pilots get hit with the magic bolt, realise that united they stand and divided they will continue to fall, then that $2.17 will soon be $0.17, and even a navy blue singlet, a pair of thongs, and a handkerchief tied at the four corners will be out of reach.
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Global
Posts: 460
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is a great thread, it has give our crew a damn fine laugh.
Our “crew” is very international as a matter of fact on my current job we have someone from every continent except Antarctica.
We all work a long way from home, for Aussies to get home it takes three days, ‘we don’t pay no stinkin’ taxes’, and we have a generous (by Oz standards) leave package.
I’m not an 89er yet they are among us, I’m not a 01er but they are with us too. But we have one thing in common that it appears may of you have lost sight of.
We wear our uniform with pride. We all have a passion to fly. We get paid respectfully for what we do.
The degeneration of conditions in Australia goes hand in hand with the problems in the 80’s. Glorified bus drivers….I believe was the comment and it stuck, those who are now your task masters had a while to let that sink in.
The Trojan is in the castle now boys, JetConnect, Australian, were simple counters to market pressures that DJ and VQ initiated.
The boys that had, had enough of their foreign sojourn returned dead set keen to resume their lifestyle. They had what they needed and could settle for less.
Don’t worry they people that cut the deals and agreed to the specific terms will be gone from what was one a highly respected career in Australia in a few years leaving everyone else to pick up the piece’s.
These days you get more respect for losing other peoples money in Australia anyway.
So for myself and the other expat crewmembers we will remain in our positions where we are still respected, with appropriate remuneration. While we watch from afar the Trojans divide and conquer the last remaining bastion of realistic aviation career’s, and aviation in the south pacific become’s a game of contractors, fly by nights, and renegades. Blue singlets…….not us.
You reap what you sow…….
RESPECT
Our “crew” is very international as a matter of fact on my current job we have someone from every continent except Antarctica.
We all work a long way from home, for Aussies to get home it takes three days, ‘we don’t pay no stinkin’ taxes’, and we have a generous (by Oz standards) leave package.
I’m not an 89er yet they are among us, I’m not a 01er but they are with us too. But we have one thing in common that it appears may of you have lost sight of.
We wear our uniform with pride. We all have a passion to fly. We get paid respectfully for what we do.
The degeneration of conditions in Australia goes hand in hand with the problems in the 80’s. Glorified bus drivers….I believe was the comment and it stuck, those who are now your task masters had a while to let that sink in.
The Trojan is in the castle now boys, JetConnect, Australian, were simple counters to market pressures that DJ and VQ initiated.
The boys that had, had enough of their foreign sojourn returned dead set keen to resume their lifestyle. They had what they needed and could settle for less.
Don’t worry they people that cut the deals and agreed to the specific terms will be gone from what was one a highly respected career in Australia in a few years leaving everyone else to pick up the piece’s.
These days you get more respect for losing other peoples money in Australia anyway.
So for myself and the other expat crewmembers we will remain in our positions where we are still respected, with appropriate remuneration. While we watch from afar the Trojans divide and conquer the last remaining bastion of realistic aviation career’s, and aviation in the south pacific become’s a game of contractors, fly by nights, and renegades. Blue singlets…….not us.
You reap what you sow…….
RESPECT
Guest
Posts: n/a
Some good points in that last post and in many of the above writings.
Still remains tho' that when the AIPA faction left the AFAP many years back because grubby things like "pay, conditions and scope clauses" were beneath them...the rot set in. It has taken a long time for the effects to work their way through the system but those left at home are in the midst of it now with worse to come. '89 was but a milestone along the road.
There was a time when either the President of the AFAP or the VP Technical could pick up the phone and speak to the minister or an airline CEO. When there wouldn't be an airline or safety related seminar or working group witout an AFAP member.
That time could come again, not to herald in an era of uniform wages and conditions...that has been and gone...but of decent conditions appropriate to the airline business involved, respect and professional treatment both ways.
And for those wondering about conditions in GA...there's only been one group fighting hard for many years on that task and that's the AFAP. Many of us, as airline pilots in the 70's and 80's never did get back our 1% directly. It subsidized the industry work as a whole, especially GA. That subsidy was a self help concept long forgotten by many who felt that they had no place in a "union".
There's one constant in all of the posts here...."if you don't learn from history, you'll learn from history".
Safe flying
Still remains tho' that when the AIPA faction left the AFAP many years back because grubby things like "pay, conditions and scope clauses" were beneath them...the rot set in. It has taken a long time for the effects to work their way through the system but those left at home are in the midst of it now with worse to come. '89 was but a milestone along the road.
There was a time when either the President of the AFAP or the VP Technical could pick up the phone and speak to the minister or an airline CEO. When there wouldn't be an airline or safety related seminar or working group witout an AFAP member.
That time could come again, not to herald in an era of uniform wages and conditions...that has been and gone...but of decent conditions appropriate to the airline business involved, respect and professional treatment both ways.
And for those wondering about conditions in GA...there's only been one group fighting hard for many years on that task and that's the AFAP. Many of us, as airline pilots in the 70's and 80's never did get back our 1% directly. It subsidized the industry work as a whole, especially GA. That subsidy was a self help concept long forgotten by many who felt that they had no place in a "union".
There's one constant in all of the posts here...."if you don't learn from history, you'll learn from history".
Safe flying
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Chicago
Posts: 75
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ahhh. He came back
New Generation, whilst you are being so open and honest with regard to your opinions, could you please enlighten us as to how long you have been flying for? What sort of flying does your background consists of? Good, old fashioned, honest facts will be suffice. With opinions such as yours I am intrigued - as are most of us who have listened to your banter.
Last edited by Qwannas; 21st Aug 2003 at 09:32.
Man Bilong Balus long PNG
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Looking forward to returning to Japan soon but in the meantime continuing the never ending search for a bad bottle of Red!
Age: 69
Posts: 2,980
Received 109 Likes
on
62 Posts
elektra; There would be many that hope that you are correct re your views on AFAP. However for AFAP to ever be able to start doing anything pilots should start supporting it!
Last night (Wed 20th) was the bi monthly SA meeting at Adelaide and guess how many pilots attended?
Three... and two were unemployed!!!!
You only live twice. Once when
you're born. Once when
you've looked death in the face.
Last night (Wed 20th) was the bi monthly SA meeting at Adelaide and guess how many pilots attended?
Three... and two were unemployed!!!!
You only live twice. Once when
you're born. Once when
you've looked death in the face.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
And further to Qwannas' questions may I add the following - in what direction do you see your career path heading, NG?
And just as importantly, where does your wife hope to see you end up?
I guess with your documented ideals it must be hard to look too far ahead, other than to say "I want to be flying", albeit perhaps for pocket money.
Alternatively, if you want to get onto BIG heavy metal asap, you can always buy your way there by putting your money where your mouth is and lodging a $225,000 bank guarantee with Singapore Airlines for 7 years!
But back to Cruze Power`s "observations" on the first page,
Yet in the splendid year of 2003 we have the highest level of home ownership..
You mean the BANKS have the highest level of mortgaged home loans. Australians have now reached the highest individual average personal level of debt in history!
And another of Cruze power`s comments;-
Let's not look at the level of union membership of workers and the rapid decline in those membership numbers, for fear of realisation of the truth that such an attitude demonstrated above is clearly outdated and out of touch.
Agreed CP - with the "rapid decline" in union membership has become a rapid decline in conditions, a decline that now looks as though it is about to rapidly accelerate as QANTAS steps up its anti-union activities with the full support of the Howard (pro-Bush) government.
It is rather interesting that Wiley's topic has more or less focused on the actuarial aspect, certainly that is an area where one feels an immediate impact..the "hip pocket nerve"!
OTOH, "navy blue singlets, thongs, and hankies tied around the head" also indirectly perhaps reflect on the skill level of the subject, and it is this aspect that SHOULD be of concern to more than just pilots, because it is ultimately going to become a SAFETY issue affecting those travelling with the "navvies", the insurance companies that insure the hulls and "cargo", and ultimately the company itself.
In my opinion there HAS been a "dumbing down" of aircrew. The training now given is NOT of the same (high) quality given some 15 or 20 years ago. Not only the aircraft type conversion courses, but also the annual emergency revals and the associated crew development classes.
Look forward to your reply, NG..
Edit
Here is the post to which New Generation refers in the following reply.
"Perhaps a?@‚?‚“‚™chosomatically induced illness brought on by the recollection of how he, as P.M., introduced the weaponry QANTAS is now employing to bust the ACTU eg. imported foreign scab labour.
Rest assured, Bob, you'll be long remembered by the ACTU for your superb union-busting efforts, along with Bill Kelty."
Nothing untruthful stated there, NG, and certainly nothing that would qualify me as, "sick, heartless, bitter & twisted individual."....a little bent perhaps
but then aren't we ALL, in one way or another!!
And just as importantly, where does your wife hope to see you end up?
I guess with your documented ideals it must be hard to look too far ahead, other than to say "I want to be flying", albeit perhaps for pocket money.
Alternatively, if you want to get onto BIG heavy metal asap, you can always buy your way there by putting your money where your mouth is and lodging a $225,000 bank guarantee with Singapore Airlines for 7 years!
But back to Cruze Power`s "observations" on the first page,
Yet in the splendid year of 2003 we have the highest level of home ownership..
You mean the BANKS have the highest level of mortgaged home loans. Australians have now reached the highest individual average personal level of debt in history!
And another of Cruze power`s comments;-
Let's not look at the level of union membership of workers and the rapid decline in those membership numbers, for fear of realisation of the truth that such an attitude demonstrated above is clearly outdated and out of touch.
Agreed CP - with the "rapid decline" in union membership has become a rapid decline in conditions, a decline that now looks as though it is about to rapidly accelerate as QANTAS steps up its anti-union activities with the full support of the Howard (pro-Bush) government.
It is rather interesting that Wiley's topic has more or less focused on the actuarial aspect, certainly that is an area where one feels an immediate impact..the "hip pocket nerve"!
OTOH, "navy blue singlets, thongs, and hankies tied around the head" also indirectly perhaps reflect on the skill level of the subject, and it is this aspect that SHOULD be of concern to more than just pilots, because it is ultimately going to become a SAFETY issue affecting those travelling with the "navvies", the insurance companies that insure the hulls and "cargo", and ultimately the company itself.
In my opinion there HAS been a "dumbing down" of aircrew. The training now given is NOT of the same (high) quality given some 15 or 20 years ago. Not only the aircraft type conversion courses, but also the annual emergency revals and the associated crew development classes.
Look forward to your reply, NG..
Edit
Here is the post to which New Generation refers in the following reply.
"Perhaps a?@‚?‚“‚™chosomatically induced illness brought on by the recollection of how he, as P.M., introduced the weaponry QANTAS is now employing to bust the ACTU eg. imported foreign scab labour.
Rest assured, Bob, you'll be long remembered by the ACTU for your superb union-busting efforts, along with Bill Kelty."
Nothing untruthful stated there, NG, and certainly nothing that would qualify me as, "sick, heartless, bitter & twisted individual."....a little bent perhaps
but then aren't we ALL, in one way or another!!
Last edited by Kaptin M; 21st Aug 2003 at 13:02.
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Australia
Posts: 175
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Kaptin M
It is with pity that I read your posting regarding Bob H@wke on another thread.
You are one sick, heartless, bitter & twisted individual.
I hope I never have to suffer the indignity of serving as a member of a crew with you.
The whole world is obviously against you and the rest of your poor hard-done-by cronies.
You and your mates are a pathetic bunch of losers.
It is with pity that I read your posting regarding Bob H@wke on another thread.
You are one sick, heartless, bitter & twisted individual.
I hope I never have to suffer the indignity of serving as a member of a crew with you.
The whole world is obviously against you and the rest of your poor hard-done-by cronies.
You and your mates are a pathetic bunch of losers.
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Asia
Posts: 381
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
NG
No my son, the pity is all ours. Naivety is something you can grow out of, stupidity is, I am afraid, quite a different matter.
The dumbing down process is obviously further advanced than I had originally thought.
Your second paragraph is actually an excellent description of the very same RJ Hawke you leap to defend. If you had ever met him you would understand it to be true.
He treated everyone with contempt, never thought about anything other than his own self gratification and bent morality whenever it suited his purposes. In a nutshell he deserves the Fires of Hell that most surely await him.
And all this would still be true even if he had no role in the 1989 fiasco.
No my son, the pity is all ours. Naivety is something you can grow out of, stupidity is, I am afraid, quite a different matter.
The dumbing down process is obviously further advanced than I had originally thought.
Your second paragraph is actually an excellent description of the very same RJ Hawke you leap to defend. If you had ever met him you would understand it to be true.
He treated everyone with contempt, never thought about anything other than his own self gratification and bent morality whenever it suited his purposes. In a nutshell he deserves the Fires of Hell that most surely await him.
And all this would still be true even if he had no role in the 1989 fiasco.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,451
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Please guys… let’s not get sidetracked with bob’orke-bashing on this thread. I think there’ll be quite enough uncomfortable home truths published about the man once ‘His Supreme Litigiousness’ has gone to meet his maker (who he doesn’t believe in) without our having to buy into it here. (And my guess is that 89 won’t get more than a passing reference among the other facts that will eventually come to light.)
*****
Back to the subject: at 7x7’s suggestion, I repeated my original post on the main PPrune board in Aircrew Notices. It’s been interesting to compare the very few, but well considered responses on that thread to the response here. Either very few people read ‘Aircrew Notices’ or the overseas pilot population have a distressingly low awareness level about this subject.
Repeating myself again, here’s a response I made on ‘Aircrew Notices’ that could well have been an answer to the third last paragraph of Kaptain M’s last post. I agree with his comment – I wish more would look past the simplistic reaction to the ‘navy blue singlets’ comment and look at the deeper implications behind the attention-grabbing title.
*****
My fear is pretty well exactly what ‘ornithopter’ said – I fear the drying up of the supply of committed young aviators capable of doing the job as the job becomes less and less attractive thanks to the ‘death of a thousand cuts’ it is currently suffering at the hands of ‘bright’(!) MBAs who can’t look further ahead than the next six monthly statement. With the deepening reduction in conditions we are seeing worldwide, we will one day see a situation where the job becomes so unattractive that there won’t be enough youngsters out there with the qualifications and the qualities that are required to fill the job today.
So what will the companies do? They’ll lower - or to use a less emotive word, ‘amend’ - the minimum standard required to fill the seats. I know there’ll be people ready to protest loudly that there’ll never be a pilot shortage, and I accept that they’re probably right. However, it’s not a ‘pilot shortage’ per se that I fear, it’s a shortage of what we in the profession class as a pilot today. I fear that if the companies can’t find pilots, they’ll employ people who will not have the skills or experience to do the job without the automatics, so they’ll re-tailor the job where using the automatics all the time becomes mandatory. (You can almost hear the conversation in the Boardroom from here: “We don’t really need pilots anymore. What we need is I.T. graduates to monitor the computers. After all, these pilots, all they do is program computers, don’t they?”)
From there, it’s a short step to the job becoming a clone of the inner city train drivers of today who do no more than open and close the doors. I hear some saying that you’ll always have to have someone capable of manually flying the aircraft, but will you? If there’s not enough people out there with the skills required, the bean counters will be able to prove that it will be cheaper to suffer delays every ‘n’ thousand flights when the degraded automatics demand a cancellation or a diversion where a costly pilot could have completed the flight. The same argument could be made about it being ‘cheaper’ to suffer a hull loss every ‘n’ years than it would be to train pilots to the degree required to reach the standards we today accept as a minimum.
I can see it going the way of the merchant marine. After twenty years, someone will see they may have made a mistake, (as I understand they have acknowledged in the shipping industry), but by then, it will be too late.
*****
Back to the subject: at 7x7’s suggestion, I repeated my original post on the main PPrune board in Aircrew Notices. It’s been interesting to compare the very few, but well considered responses on that thread to the response here. Either very few people read ‘Aircrew Notices’ or the overseas pilot population have a distressingly low awareness level about this subject.
Repeating myself again, here’s a response I made on ‘Aircrew Notices’ that could well have been an answer to the third last paragraph of Kaptain M’s last post. I agree with his comment – I wish more would look past the simplistic reaction to the ‘navy blue singlets’ comment and look at the deeper implications behind the attention-grabbing title.
*****
My fear is pretty well exactly what ‘ornithopter’ said – I fear the drying up of the supply of committed young aviators capable of doing the job as the job becomes less and less attractive thanks to the ‘death of a thousand cuts’ it is currently suffering at the hands of ‘bright’(!) MBAs who can’t look further ahead than the next six monthly statement. With the deepening reduction in conditions we are seeing worldwide, we will one day see a situation where the job becomes so unattractive that there won’t be enough youngsters out there with the qualifications and the qualities that are required to fill the job today.
So what will the companies do? They’ll lower - or to use a less emotive word, ‘amend’ - the minimum standard required to fill the seats. I know there’ll be people ready to protest loudly that there’ll never be a pilot shortage, and I accept that they’re probably right. However, it’s not a ‘pilot shortage’ per se that I fear, it’s a shortage of what we in the profession class as a pilot today. I fear that if the companies can’t find pilots, they’ll employ people who will not have the skills or experience to do the job without the automatics, so they’ll re-tailor the job where using the automatics all the time becomes mandatory. (You can almost hear the conversation in the Boardroom from here: “We don’t really need pilots anymore. What we need is I.T. graduates to monitor the computers. After all, these pilots, all they do is program computers, don’t they?”)
From there, it’s a short step to the job becoming a clone of the inner city train drivers of today who do no more than open and close the doors. I hear some saying that you’ll always have to have someone capable of manually flying the aircraft, but will you? If there’s not enough people out there with the skills required, the bean counters will be able to prove that it will be cheaper to suffer delays every ‘n’ thousand flights when the degraded automatics demand a cancellation or a diversion where a costly pilot could have completed the flight. The same argument could be made about it being ‘cheaper’ to suffer a hull loss every ‘n’ years than it would be to train pilots to the degree required to reach the standards we today accept as a minimum.
I can see it going the way of the merchant marine. After twenty years, someone will see they may have made a mistake, (as I understand they have acknowledged in the shipping industry), but by then, it will be too late.
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Australia
Posts: 103
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
We are not the only industry to suffer because of the selfish actions of a naive fringe. The article below was taken from another forum in another professional based industry, where they have a very similar problem. With a "some" poetic license and changing a few words, it fits our industry well
Some pilots behave like scabs in that they make it impossible to act collectively; they function as a selfish, naive, army of the unemployed, they drive down wages, and then they condemn the rest of us who don't adopt their individualist outlook as unjustified complainers or greedy. Essentially, the "I-can't-believe-I-get-paid-to-do-this" pilots sell out to their exploiters in the hopes of getting crumbs from the table.
These pilots are a downtrodden lot, but I wonder if pilots who are committed to change and collective action need to draw a line and declare, 'You are with us or against us.' And, if you are an pilot who undercuts wages, expands the tyranny of flexibility, refuses to help your fellow aviation workers, and then proclaims how wonderful the system is . . . well, what would a serious union movement do?
Some may comment suggesting that at least some pilots, behave like scabs. This is a delicate and thorny issue, which in the current climate of exploitation is raised regularly. One of the problems surrounding discussions of the professional pilot, is that we are all too polite, and let's face, all too embarrassed, to confront the issues openly and frankly.
To work as a professional pilot, is not only to consent to one's own exploitation but also to participate in the unfolding process of the deprofessionalization of pilots more broadly. And this is quite apart from whatever pronouncements one makes on the topic: whether one says, "Professional flying is a bad deal" or "I can't believe they pay me to do this!" it is the flying at a low wage and poor working conditions, that contributes to the devaluation of our profession.
In common parlance, the term "scab" refers to someone who is doing something in relation to union or association activity. A scab is someone who crosses a picket line, who refuses to join a union, who takes a job as a replacement worker for a worker who is out on strike and so on. I think it's obvious that some pilots are not scabs in this way. They are not refusing to join a union or association. Nor are some pilots crossing pickets lines or taking jobs as some did in the late 80's, as replacement workers for full-time union or association members.
So the term can only make sense in a looser way, as a means of calling attention to the ways in which some pilots undercut the salaries of the fully employed and deprofessionalize the industry.
The major problem here is that pilot professional associations do not license their practitioners. There is obviously no social contract with the state, which is what medical doctors clearly have: the state grants them a legal monopoly over the provision of certain services, they agree to police and enforce credentials and licenses: if you practice surgery without a license, the state can, and I hope will prosecute you. Leaving aside the question of state interest, and most of us would agree that the state has a compelling interest in preventing an amateur from performing surgery, but does not have a compelling interest in preventing some pilots from working at very low salaries, there is not even an extra-legal licensing system overseen by the professional associations on behalf of their own members. Nor is there likely to be one, and probably shouldn't be.
The problem with weak and ineffective professional associations, emasculated by the actions of a few, is that they can only hope to achieve an amelioration of horrible working conditions (low wage, lack of benefits) -- from really bad to not quite as bad -- without addressing the broader problem of deprofessionalization..
Some pilots behave like scabs in that they make it impossible to act collectively; they function as a selfish, naive, army of the unemployed, they drive down wages, and then they condemn the rest of us who don't adopt their individualist outlook as unjustified complainers or greedy. Essentially, the "I-can't-believe-I-get-paid-to-do-this" pilots sell out to their exploiters in the hopes of getting crumbs from the table.
These pilots are a downtrodden lot, but I wonder if pilots who are committed to change and collective action need to draw a line and declare, 'You are with us or against us.' And, if you are an pilot who undercuts wages, expands the tyranny of flexibility, refuses to help your fellow aviation workers, and then proclaims how wonderful the system is . . . well, what would a serious union movement do?
Some may comment suggesting that at least some pilots, behave like scabs. This is a delicate and thorny issue, which in the current climate of exploitation is raised regularly. One of the problems surrounding discussions of the professional pilot, is that we are all too polite, and let's face, all too embarrassed, to confront the issues openly and frankly.
To work as a professional pilot, is not only to consent to one's own exploitation but also to participate in the unfolding process of the deprofessionalization of pilots more broadly. And this is quite apart from whatever pronouncements one makes on the topic: whether one says, "Professional flying is a bad deal" or "I can't believe they pay me to do this!" it is the flying at a low wage and poor working conditions, that contributes to the devaluation of our profession.
In common parlance, the term "scab" refers to someone who is doing something in relation to union or association activity. A scab is someone who crosses a picket line, who refuses to join a union, who takes a job as a replacement worker for a worker who is out on strike and so on. I think it's obvious that some pilots are not scabs in this way. They are not refusing to join a union or association. Nor are some pilots crossing pickets lines or taking jobs as some did in the late 80's, as replacement workers for full-time union or association members.
So the term can only make sense in a looser way, as a means of calling attention to the ways in which some pilots undercut the salaries of the fully employed and deprofessionalize the industry.
The major problem here is that pilot professional associations do not license their practitioners. There is obviously no social contract with the state, which is what medical doctors clearly have: the state grants them a legal monopoly over the provision of certain services, they agree to police and enforce credentials and licenses: if you practice surgery without a license, the state can, and I hope will prosecute you. Leaving aside the question of state interest, and most of us would agree that the state has a compelling interest in preventing an amateur from performing surgery, but does not have a compelling interest in preventing some pilots from working at very low salaries, there is not even an extra-legal licensing system overseen by the professional associations on behalf of their own members. Nor is there likely to be one, and probably shouldn't be.
The problem with weak and ineffective professional associations, emasculated by the actions of a few, is that they can only hope to achieve an amelioration of horrible working conditions (low wage, lack of benefits) -- from really bad to not quite as bad -- without addressing the broader problem of deprofessionalization..
Dessert Digger
The hourly cost for a captain and first officer is $225 an hour.
Oh really?
Let me see, if we take out the cost of training, super, allowances, sick days, annual leave, leave loading, payroll tax, uniforms, transport, layover costs, parking, FBT plus numerous operational costs, l think then that the take home pay for the captain would be $2 and give the first officer 60% of that.
halas
The hourly cost for a captain and first officer is $225 an hour.
Oh really?
Let me see, if we take out the cost of training, super, allowances, sick days, annual leave, leave loading, payroll tax, uniforms, transport, layover costs, parking, FBT plus numerous operational costs, l think then that the take home pay for the captain would be $2 and give the first officer 60% of that.
halas
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Chicago
Posts: 75
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hmmmmmm
New Generation,
Still no response to my post.
You have such a strong and passionate opinion towards this subject (and you are basically on your own with it). I am interested in your flying experience. (It's all relevant!)
I will ask again, but worded differently...simply put
Have you only been flying for a little while?
Still no response to my post.
You have such a strong and passionate opinion towards this subject (and you are basically on your own with it). I am interested in your flying experience. (It's all relevant!)
I will ask again, but worded differently...simply put
Have you only been flying for a little while?
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: australia
Posts: 115
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What a bunch of hot air!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The reason thier is so much of this unprofessionalism is directly as a result of the AFAP's behavior since 1989!
They ran a poorly managed stike, lost and as a result shafted the careers of those they were suposed to defend
I know many good blokes that had that hapen thanks to the AFAP.
All they seem to do is sit on their aging behinds call poeple names bitch moan groan about the way others stuffed their careers. well gues what ? you stuffed it up yourselfs
Because of this no body wants to join a union that does this for is members. As with most other industries when you don't have union suport the workers do get shafted.
I have heard some stories of the way these "profesionals" have behaved since then and you guys Disgust me
You are meant to be proffesional you want to be treated as proffesionals, WELL BEHAVE LIKE ONE!
I'm with next generation, I am in this game for the love of it. I try to act as proffessional as I can and yes good thing are hapening for me.
I for one will not be jioning the AFAP and that is comming from a suporter of the union movement
Thats my hot air relief for today
They ran a poorly managed stike, lost and as a result shafted the careers of those they were suposed to defend
I know many good blokes that had that hapen thanks to the AFAP.
All they seem to do is sit on their aging behinds call poeple names bitch moan groan about the way others stuffed their careers. well gues what ? you stuffed it up yourselfs
Because of this no body wants to join a union that does this for is members. As with most other industries when you don't have union suport the workers do get shafted.
I have heard some stories of the way these "profesionals" have behaved since then and you guys Disgust me
You are meant to be proffesional you want to be treated as proffesionals, WELL BEHAVE LIKE ONE!
I'm with next generation, I am in this game for the love of it. I try to act as proffessional as I can and yes good thing are hapening for me.
I for one will not be jioning the AFAP and that is comming from a suporter of the union movement
Thats my hot air relief for today